Joyce's death as plot device

[NotASlayer]

Spike was never merely present; he was constantly attempting to get back with Buffy, one way or another, culminating in him attempting to rape her again. It is very difficult to move on from abuse when your abuser will not let you. During Dark Willow, Buffy was recovering from being shot. As @Cohen pointed out, this was also the period when she started realising that Dawn wasn't a child, and whilst Spike was away, that's when Buffy has matured over the summer, maturity that disappeared once more when Spike returned to abuse her again.

 

[NoShip]

It is funny how the only time Buffy was able to make decisions competently and like a rational, intelligent adult in seasons six and seven was when Spike was not around...

After Touched, Buffy made good decisions with Spike around. The difference is that Spike stopped being totally selfish and became a good team member. Also, the imminence of everyone's death focused everyone's mind on what was actually important so all the personal dramas ended.

In the end, Spike kept up his record. For 19 episodes he was an oxygen thief and "Nice Guy"and for 3 episodes he did some good to great things.

 

[Cohen]

I don't necessarily think we were supposed to see Buffy as primary caregiver at that time. At the very least Buffy's reaction around Joyce's death didn't really suggest she saw herself that way. And there were only three eps between Joyce's death and them fleeing Sunnydale and basically no longer doing normal things

the beginning of the season literally had Buffy breaking down in her sink doing daily chores because having to deal with her duties as a slayer and caregiving for her mom and sister had become too much for her. Consistently throughout the season she is taking care of both Dawn and Joyce. When Glory makes an impromptu meeting with her midway through the season, she sends Joyce and Dawn packing to Spike’s crypt. The idea was to sprinkle bits of showing Buffy having to grow and mature and be the one making hard decisions for both her slayer and personal life.

This culminates in the last arc of the season, starting with The Body, where Buffy is faced with the very reality that she is the grown up now, she has to explain to Dawn her mother is dead, she has to accept her role, then she is shown struggling with the sole responsibility of Dawn for the next multitude of episodes, including going coma tose when Dawn is kidnapped by Glory because she believes she has failed at her responsibility, and then has to sacrifice herself literally so Dawn could survive.

The Buffy of season 5 is the most mature Buffy of the series. Because her maturity is backpedaled due to Noxon’s idea to show Buffy dealing with the depression of adulthood in season 6 which just didn’t land because she had already grown and matured so much in season 5.

They even comment of the absurdity of season 6 during Normal Again when the alt-reality doc is telling her “after fighting a literal God, your biggest enemy this year is… three nerds?”

 

[Plasma]

I know people in general, really love the emotion brought up from Joyce's death but has anyone else ever thought of the plot convenience for it. If Joyce had been alive they could have rented a better rv than the one Spike stole or Joyce could have sacrificed herself for Dawn

It’s convenient, sure, but almost all storytelling is based on convenience and coincidence. Star Wars doesn’t happen unless Luke and Uncle Owen just so happen to get R2 and 3PO. Breaking Bad never happens if Jesse gets arrested right off of jump. Etc.

I think the thing that makes Joyce’s death actually hit very well is how very much unpredictable and out of the blue it is. One day she’s there and the next, she’s a body on a sofa in a living room of a house that isn’t hers anymore. The truth is, death, real death, is like that. It’s easy to forget when you’re jumping around staking vamps and killing demons, but the reality of death is that someone is there until they just aren’t, and now you have to deal with that.

Plot wise it ended up being really good and was a great way to write Sutherland off the show, sort of an inverse of the mess that was Walsh’s death in S4.

 

[garfan]

the beginning of the season literally had Buffy breaking down in her sink doing daily chores because having to deal with her duties as a slayer and caregiving for her mom and sister had become too much for her. Consistently throughout the season she is taking care of both Dawn and Joyce. When Glory makes an impromptu meeting with her midway through the season, she sends Joyce and Dawn packing to Spike’s crypt. The idea was to sprinkle bits of showing Buffy having to grow and mature and be the one making hard decisions for both her slayer and personal life.

This culminates in the last arc of the season, starting with The Body, where Buffy is faced with the very reality that she is the grown up now, she has to explain to Dawn her mother is dead, she has to accept her role, then she is shown struggling with the sole responsibility of Dawn for the next multitude of episodes, including going coma tose when Dawn is kidnapped by Glory because she believes she has failed at her responsibility, and then has to sacrifice herself literally so Dawn could survive.

The Buffy of season 5 is the most mature Buffy of the series. Because her maturity is backpedaled due to Noxon’s idea to show Buffy dealing with the depression of adulthood in season 6 which just didn’t land because she had already grown and matured so much in season 5.

They even comment of the absurdity of season 6 during Normal Again when the alt-reality doc is telling her “after fighting a literal God, your biggest enemy this year is… three nerds?”

fear for their safety does not have to be a caregiving thing. And as she's a protector I guess I just always felt she'd be in the same place if Joyce was threatened by something supernatural

I'm not trying to deny the maturity by the way. The biggest flaw of the idea of the Scoobies "growing up" in season 6 is they were plainly already grown up

 

[Cohen]

fear for their safety does not have to be a caregiving thing. And as she's a protector I guess I just always felt she'd be in the same place if Joyce was threatened by something supernatural

I guess I'm adding personal experience here, but also Joyce was not able to totally care for herself pre and post brain surgery. Buffy was attending doctor's appointments, hospital visits, taking care of the regular chores around the house, babysitting Dawn, picking her up from school, on top of her dutiess as the slayer. She moved back into her home to try to continue to go to classes but be there to take care of her family, including both protecting Dawn from Glory and her mother's health issues as reasons for giving up her corner dorm. It is seen in multiple episodes from Family through Into the Woods how Buffy has stepped up to be caregiver for both her mother and sister. And while these are a span of 4-5 episodes, it is really a span of a couple of months, as Family was set pretty early in the semester, even though it aired in November. Season 5's timeline is a little wonky because so much happens before they go back to school, as evidenced by Buffy stating Dawn has been in existence for 6 months, putting the events of Buffy v Dracula six months before January. So, Buffy had been caregiving for Joyce and Dawn for a good while before Buffy's birthday.

 

[garfan]

I guess I'm adding personal experience here, but also Joyce was not able to totally care for herself pre and post brain surgery. Buffy was attending doctor's appointments, hospital visits, taking care of the regular chores around the house, babysitting Dawn, picking her up from school, on top of her dutiess as the slayer. She moved back into her home to try to continue to go to classes but be there to take care of her family, including both protecting Dawn from Glory and her mother's health issues as reasons for giving up her corner dorm. It is seen in multiple episodes from Family through Into the Woods how Buffy has stepped up to be caregiver for both her mother and sister. And while these are a span of 4-5 episodes, it is really a span of a couple of months, as Family was set pretty early in the semester, even though it aired in November. Season 5's timeline is a little wonky because so much happens before they go back to school, as evidenced by Buffy stating Dawn has been in existence for 6 months, putting the events of Buffy v Dracula six months before January. So, Buffy had been caregiving for Joyce and Dawn for a good while before Buffy's birthday.

I suppose the fact I have never been anyone's primary caregiver but have helped with numerous sick people and always been super stressed by it might be affecting me.

How deep in January because six months before the beginning of January puts it barely outside of season 4

 

[NoShip]

How deep in January because six months before the beginning of January puts it barely outside of season 4

AFAIK - Each season is supposed to end in May. Hence S1's Prom and S3's Graduation and S4's spring time costumes and S6's bright sunny day.

Each season starts in August or September, right around the start of school.

During the season, the in-universe time-lapse between episodes is all over the place.

 

[Cohen]

How deep in January because six months before the beginning of January puts it barely outside of season 4

AFAIK - Each season is supposed to end in May. Hence S1's Prom and S3's Graduation and S4's spring time costumes and S6's bright sunny day.

Each season starts in August or September, right around the start of school.

During the season, the in-universe time-lapse between episodes is all over the place.

Buffy's birthday is around mid-to-late january though I am not sure if a specific date is ever given. Given that Dawn pops into existence in the final moments of Buffy vs Dracula, I would posit that it takes place around mid-to-late July, which is about 2 months following the May finale of season 4.

This also keeps in line with traditional collegiate academic years beginning at the end of August, as the first few episodes of the season seem to take place just prior and in the weeks after the start of Buffy, Willow & Tara's sophomore year at UC Sunnydale.

I suppose the fact I have never been anyone's primary caregiver but have helped with numerous sick people and always been super stressed by it might be affecting me.

I can definitely understand that. As a caregiver for both my mother and grandmother in their last few years of life, I look back at season 5 with different eyes than before I played that role.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

I'm waiting for someone to point out that the Watchers Council and the PTB completely dropped the ball by failing to help 'their' slayer through her personal troubled time of her mothers illness yet they continued to expect the slayer to do her 'duties' for them following the time when Joyce was severely impacted by her brain tumour and ultimately her death. Sure Giles did offer a bit of help but considering the size and what the Watchers Council could have done, well. They could have put some potential slayers to cover for Buffy.

 

[NotASlayer]

I'm waiting for someone to point out that the Watchers Council and the PTB completely dropped the ball by failing to help 'their' slayer through her personal troubled time of her mothers illness yet they continued to expect the slayer to do her 'duties' for them following the time when Joyce was severely impacted by her brain tumour and ultimately her death. Sure Giles did offer a bit of help but considering the size and what the Watchers Council could have done, well. They could have put some potential slayers to cover for Buffy.

I think that is kind of the point of the Watchers Council; they are deliberately portrayed as being incompetent. Far too incompetent, in fact, to levels that make little sense. The Watchers are shown as considering Slayers to be disposable and replaceable, as there will always be another, yet when another Slayer is called, they have to find her - because they don't know where every Potential is - and if she wasn't a Potential, give her training. Plus, refusing to support Slayers financially - and they have the resources to do so - means that Slayers are wasting time on things that aren't Slaying. The entire support structure for active Slayers is nearly absent, which doesn't help the so-called mission of the Watchers at all.

 

[ILLYRIAN]

If you think about it the Watchers Council is just like the Church, they view themselves as being all important even though they are not, they are human and are not privy to what God knows or the PTB knows, that won't stop them promoting themselves though.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Well, the Watcher's Council is never written as an bona fide anti-demon society, it's only written as a feminist strawman when the writers have something to say about systematic oppression of women. The organization is examined in "Tea and Crossbows" a RPG supplement that you can read via certain means, but the show doesn't really want to explain it.

 

[NoShip]

Well, the Watcher's Council is never written as an bona fide anti-demon society, it's only written as a feminist strawman when the writers have something to say about systematic oppression of women. The organization is examined in "Tea and Crossbows" a RPG supplement that you can read via certain means, but the show doesn't really want to explain it.

Whedon and Co saying as little as humanly possible about the Council gives them maximum flexibility. They can portray the Council in any way at all. The ruthless special ops teams (WAY), the incompetent bureaucrats (Revelations), the all controlling operators (checkpoint), the deluded fanatics (Helpless), the ignorant geniuses (Grave) and so on.

Whedon and Co change the perspective on the Council based on the needs of the episode. Great for each episode. Terrible for any clear idea of the Council an anything at all.

Unfortunately, I think @AlphaFoxtrot is spot on. The Council really is nothing more than a Patriarchal punching bag. It's too bad. The Council could have been a great villian.

 

[garfan]

Whedon and Co saying as little as humanly possible about the Council gives them maximum flexibility. They can portray the Council in any way at all. The ruthless special ops teams (WAY), the incompetent bureaucrats (Revelations), the all controlling operators (checkpoint), the deluded fanatics (Helpless), the ignorant geniuses (Grave) and so on.

Whedon and Co change the perspective on the Council based on the needs of the episode. Great for each episode. Terrible for any clear idea of the Council an anything at all.

Unfortunately, I think @AlphaFoxtrot is spot on. The Council really is nothing more than a Patriarchal punching bag. It's too bad. The Council could have been a great villian.

I don't think Joss ever wanted to shake up the system that much. Making the Watcher's Council fully evil makes it to easy to question the Slayer's mission and I think there was already more grey than he wanted. The metaphors of Buffy the Vampire Slayer were designed to represent situations not people so there's nothing really wrong with trying to have them in black and white

And all the complaints about the group you list can fit in there without changing to much. Being ignorant genius and deluded fanatics makes them try to be all controlling operators which instead results in incompetent bureaucrats and they can easily hire ruthless special ops

Overall, they are a bonafide anti-demon society. They just aren't a very good one

 

[ILLYRIAN]

Carrying on from what Garfan said in reply #1 about what if Spike stole the camper van used to get Dawn away. Suppose if Spike had nicked it, what would be the chances of the owners reporting it was nicked?

Here's a thought was that before or after Joyces death, 'cos there was no mention of her that I can remember.