Joyce's Warning

C

chiigusa

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I just watched 'Conversations with Dead People' and had a curious thought. I apologize if this has been discussed before, but couldn't find a thread about it. But, here's the quote...

Joyce: When it's bad, Buffy won't choose you. She'll be against you.
Click to expand...

I'm trying to recall the later events of Season 7 and can't exactly pinpoint what Joyce could be referring to. When was Buffy against Dawn in Season 7? I haven't watched this season all the way through in a number of months, so I may be completely missing something.

Any ideas?
 
Since my memory is like it is my first question is: Do we beyond doubt know that it was Joyce?

I guess I might be ashamed by the answer but what do I care.
 
Yeah, I was wondering that too. But, considering the First never 'glowed', I always had a strong inkling that it WAS Joyce. But, that may be hopeful and wishful thinking because I miss Joyce.
 
I miss joyce to , but we have our own joyce on the boards who is fantastic 🙂 .

Yeh i know but the first likes to play mind games aswell. you know try and stir things up before the big fight , divide and then smash x
 
J
Joyce Summers
Flattery will get you everywhere ;-)
N
NightBird
Agree on all points.
I'm with you on this one LorneyTunes. Before season 7 how much was known about the First, so it played with peoples minds and very effectively, heck people are still a bit confused by it.
Get the BB Joyce and Buffy to give their thoughts on the First not playing with Dawns mind, chances are neither of their comments would be to complimentary.
It was said that the First always told the truth, well yes. But only to those who had or were human, Dawn was made 'as a' human by the Monks of Dagon; so not a human.
 
Well, like others already pointed out, there is this matter if it was the real Joyce or not. Since we have no way of solving this issue, let's just skip this part.

What I find so intriguing by this quote is how in the end, at least to me, it holds a certain irony. Remember how everyone basically kicked Buffy out of the house? And remember who a certain sister didn't stand up for her and rather even also wanted her to leave? So who didn't chose who? It was exactly the other way around, "When it's bad, Dawn won't chose you"

And well, there is always of course the possibility that Joyce is referring to something that hasn't happened yet.
 
I believe it was said in a commentary or something that it was originally meant to be Joyce, but when they changed the overall arc of Season Seven, they let it seem as if it was the First. That's why that line lost its significance. Joss may pick it up again in Season 8 though. Sorry I can't be more specific.
 
Even if it were the First, it has to be remembered that, through the entire season, it never really lied. It simply stated the truth in such a way as to mislead whoever it was talking to, like when it, as Mayor Wilkins told Faith that Buffy was dangerous and would never really trust her. Well, Buffy IS dangerous, but she's dangerous to the First and its minions. And, sadly, even in Season 8, she doesn't really trust Faith, or at least seems quite willing to believe that she has slipped back into her old ways. The truth is, that in the end, Buffy DIDN'T choose Dawn, or any of the Scoobies, or any of the Potentials, or Faith, or even Angel. She chose Spike. To be her champion. See? Absolute truth, just told in a was that is misdirecting.
 
Like WA, despite being evil, The First always told the truth, but lied with it. I think Cordelia said that about Angel once 'He lies with the truth' and I think it was a similar deal with The First.

As for the "Buffy won't choose you line", I sort of had an 'Aaaah, maybe that's what it meant' moment in Lies My Parents Told Me and Giles asked if Buffy were in a similar situation to the The Gift, what would she decide now- the world or Dawn. And Buffy replied she would sacrifice Dawn for the world because she 'gets' the big picture now.

Now, an online friend of mine several years back actually got an email to Jane Espenson to ask as to whether it was really Joyce in CwDP people and she replied, no it wasn't; it was The First. But she was incredibly pleased that she wrote it so convincingly. HOWEVER the Joyce that speaks to Buffy in Bring on the Night is another matter entirely. Apparently, that was meant to be Joyce giving Buffy a little push- the apparent clue was her handing Buffy a book. Despite being a dream, they would have still made The First incorporeal, but Joyce was pretty much solid here.
 
L
Lily
i never noticed the book bit, but then i'm not hyper aware about Joyce!
F
Fake Shemp
Sorry, people kept discussing it tho it had been pointed out, i thought it needed a full transcript post
its always niggled me too, cause we dont know if its Joyce or the first.... they even say something about your not supposed to know on the commentary....

and its weird since before buffy chose dawn over EVERYTHING else...... im just about to start season 7 again so ill be watching out for it
 
I just watched the commentary and im fairly sure Jane Espenson (she was the one who wrote that scene with Dawn, right?) said it is the First.
 
F
Fake Shemp
yeah it was jane.... remember cuz i love jane... but i must have heard whatver i wanted to hear lol
Joyce Summers said:
As for the "Buffy won't choose you line", I sort of had an 'Aaaah, maybe that's what it meant' moment in Lies My Parents Told Me and Giles asked if Buffy were in a similar situation to the The Gift, what would she decide now- the world or Dawn. And Buffy replied she would sacrifice Dawn for the world because she 'gets' the big picture now.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought. When Buffy told Giles that YES, she WOULD sacrifice Dawn... "to save the world". I never questioned if Joyce was a real "ghostly" entity or The First - I just concentrated on the words.

BUT - The First couldn't "see" into the future... could it? If it could, it would have known that Buffy getting the scythe was a pivitol point in the "win" and would have instructed Caleb to fight her for it once she king-arthured it out of the rock. Instead, First-Buffy told Caleb to "let her go."

So in that light - if The First CANNOT see into the future, then Joyce telling Dawn "when it's bad, Buffy won't choose you" and then Buffy saying she would sacrifice Dawn would mean that Joyce WASN'T The First. At least, that's how I look at it.

BUT (another but! always another but) if Jane E. said that Joyce WAS The First (& she should know! she wrote it!) .... then see? Now that whole scene doesn't make sense... except that The First was just trying to rattle Dawn.
 
after I watched the entire season, I just mocked it up to Buffy making Xander get Dawn out of Sunnydale. She didnt want to stay for the fight and was against her staying.
 
Mr. Pointy
Mr. Pointy
That's the way I always interpreted it :)
F
Fake Shemp
yeah cause its like she's chosing dawn to live, but she's been trying to teach dawn to fight so its going against the change in dynamics between thte two sisters
My solution is that it really was the First speaking as Joyce.
And he/she/it only said it to mix things up a little, making Dawn not trusting Buffy and so on...

/SK
 
Different ideas aside, I think it was the First personally. That's how I choose to view it. Deceitful and crafty so it is! Very clever and subversive.
 
yeah i listened to the comentary and jane said there was a point to her cutting her feet, so that when dawn did a spell to bring joyce back... her foot would go in the glowy spell and drip in blood and then when joyce appeared dawn would think she had brought her back (but she hadnt) but then it got cut so it looks more ominous to whether its the first or joyce, but yep jane wrote it and its the first. i was just so hoping it wasnt.
 
I don't think the threat ever played out, they crammed so much into the season, so many things were lost or forgotten. Which is why S7 came out uneven and rushed.
 
Without going back and rewatching CwDP, didn't that girl also tell Willow that Tara wanted her to kill herself so they could be together?
In a sense, it feels like where the First "lies with the truth" he's more lying with the truth that the person he's speaking to "wants" to hear. Like the Nightmares episode, kind of like their worst fear.
I would NEVER believe Tara wanted Willow to kill herself, but I WOULD believe that at some point Willow thought Tara might want her to....if only to justify her feeling like she wanted to kill herself to be with Tara. (Did that make sense?)
I also feel like what Joyce said wasn't so much a LIE as too vague a reference, but left vague to hurt Dawn and make her not trust Buffy. Which may lead to Dawn's reaction when they oust Buffy later. On the other hand, it could mean LOTS of things. Like in reference to when Buffy tries to send Dawn with Xander or when Dawn turns out NOT to be a potential. Or, for all we know, when Buffy decides to go get burgers over the pizza Dawn wants for dinner one night.

Like Horoscopes! Not really a lie, just too vague to have too fine a point.
 
J
Joyce Summers
Ah yes, of course. The First is the evil mastermind behind all those addictive horoscope articles...
H
hyperballadbrad
Quite a rant! But made total sense to me :D
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