July 23-27 Episode Discussion led by nightshade

[nightshade]

My discussion is on the changes in The Freshman.

- Willow's change from high school student to college

- Buffy's feeling lost

- No mention of losing Cordelia or Angel

- Xander's trip and return, also his speech to Buffy

-Giles' unemployment, and relationships with Buffy and Olivia.

How did you feel about so many changes in one episode?
Were they realistic?
Should they have done the episode differently?

 

[BuffyElevated]

You know, up until now I really never thought about how the gang never really talks about Cordelia again. That is definitely not realistic, especially since she was Xander's first real girlfriend, and the reason Anya met them all in the first place.

I think Buffy's change is very realistic. A lot of kids go to college not really knowing what to expect, and then they get there and it's very overwhelming. For this reason, I totally identified with Buffy in a lot of ways in "The Freshman". I felt a lot of those same emotions when I went away to a traditional college straight out of high school. It can definitely be scary, even for those who are used to facing scary things head on.

Willow's change felt very out of character to me. I thought it was great that they show Willow fitting in better and feeling more like she belonged somewhere, but after being so painfully shy in high school, it felt so weird to see her suddenly blossoming like that. I thought she would have been the one to feel lost, instead of Buffy.

Xander's transition I felt was very well done and realistic. A lot of kids leave high school with this mindset that college is not for them and they'd rather just try their hand and see what life gives them, only to find out that life is hard without a good education.

I felt sorry for Giles, but I found it hard to believe a man as intelligent as he supposedly was would have no more employable skills that would lead him to a job. Season 4 felkt kinda weird for me. I kept going "Why the hell doesn't Giles have another job yet?" He never struck me as the sit-around-feeling-sorry-for-myself type.

 

[Icarium]

I think Buffy's sense of feeling lost was way over the top. She was living in the same town and was going to the same college as her best friend (and also Oz). I refuse to believe that Willow wouldn't have practically forced Buffy to register for everything college-related at the earliest possible time and wouldn't have dragged her to get acquainted with everything at UC Sunnydale long before the semester started. I don't get why they lived in the dorms either - is UC Sunnydale that far away that the commute from Buffy's home to it would have been a problem? I doubt it, so the moving drama seemed very forced. And so did the bad roommate drama - she could always move back with Joyce. It's not like the Summers house was bursting at the seams with people. 🙂 Living with a room mate who wasn't Willow would have presented a huge problem for Buffy's Slaying too. I get that they wanted to show the college experience and that Buffy and Willow wanted to try living on their own but it still felt forced.

Willow's change felt very out of character to me. I thought it was great that they show Willow fitting in better and feeling more like she belonged somewhere, but after being so painfully shy in high school, it felt so weird to see her suddenly blossoming like that.

I never thought Willow was painfully shy. Okay, maybe a little in the first few episodes, but by season 4 we had seen her connect to strangers (Faith, Anya, Oz) almost immediately, confronting Faith, yelling at Giles, Angel, Buffy and Xander at certain points, interrogate Jonathan, etc. Now, yes, she fit in a bit too easily at UC Sunnydale. The whole episode tried way too hard to get Buffy to feel lost and Willow's behaviour was a part of this.

As for Giles, also forced. Back in S2 people from a museum or whatever it was who found Acathla specifically looked for him because he was a local expert, now he can't find any job? The Olivia fling was stupid too - prior to that we were led to believe that Giles's dating moves were so rusty he had to rehearse his pick-up lines with a chair and had to wait for Jenny to ask him on a date. Now, he suddenly is a playboy who is so irresistible women cross an ocean just for some sex with him? Come on!

So overall, the episode would have worked better if it was at the end of a few episodes arc where we see why Buffy is feeling overwhelmed rather than something like "because the plot said so".

 

[nightshade]

Was Willow's change helped by Oz? He had been there before with the band do you think she may have gone with him at times?

 

[DeadFlagBlues]

Sorry, but I disagree that Buffy's sense of being lost was over the top. I rewatched this episode recently and it was so painful because I understood how lost she was.

Yes, Willow, her bff, was there but Willow was completely in her element. She knew where to go, what to do, when to get things done. Navigating through the red tape that is college administration takes some know-how. Buffy was like a fish out of water and she didn't know what to do. Seeing how together Willow was about school probably made her feel inadequate and that she was already behind somehow. So I totally bought that Buffy wanted to retreat and be alone because she didn't really know how to be miss college. It's unfortunate that she took that route because it probably hurt her but I get that sense of being lost.

I can also see from Buffy's perspective, why she couldn't just move back in with Joyce. Part of going to college is the search to find yourself, become an adult, and define your place in the world. She couldn't just go running back to mom because it wouldn't just be about being able to handle a roommate in college. It would mean that she didn't know how to handle herself as an adult. She felt that she had to stick it out to prove to herself that she can be a grown-up. The ability to be a grown-up is so important to Buffy, because as the slayer, she's lucky to arrive to an adult age. Past slayers didn't have to worry about getting an education and figuring out how to balance their slayer lives with the economic and professional responsibilities society demands because they died young. Buffy was going into new territory by going to college as a person and also as a slayer. She had to prove to herself that she could be all things that society and Sunnyvale needed her to be. Running back to mom would feel like a set back.

Buffy's inability to deal with college and what it could mean for her in the long run seemed serious enough to be mopey and lost over.

 

[PassionBecoming]

Willow definitely made a huge change when she got out of high school. I think a whole new world opened up for her - she's just "the geek" anymore. No one new her at SU and she was able to come out of her shell a little more. Hence the spurting monologue. 😛

Buffy's transition was a little harder, and while I think her experience is a lot like many other freshmen's, I thought it was a little too rough for her just because of who she is. She was a complete outsider at Sunnydale High, she's used to relying only on herself and her instincts, she has to be somewhat of a loner. I feel like she would be able to acclimate a little better than she did, though it was interesting to see Willow being the one smoothly transitioning and Buffy having the problems.

It seems that Joss does that a lot: some main character leaves/gets killed off, then is rarely, if ever, mentioned again. I can kind of see why Cordelia wasn't mentioned, because by the end of S3 she wasn't really in the Scoobie clan anymore and her and Xander were over. I would think Buffy would still be feeling a little hurt over the whole Angel thing, and while the situation didn't need to be dwelt upon, one would imagine Buffy would reference it now and then.

I wish we could have seen Xander's trip, because that would have been epic! I have always loved how he can pick up Buffy's spirits when she's down. Definitely the heart of the group! (Primevil?)

Oh, Giles, he is so lost this season. I get the feeling that the writers want us to feel bad for him, but I also think "Well, why didn't he get a different job? Why doesn't he tell Buffy to set aside time for training between classes on a weekly basis?" He could have done more to keep in touch, I guess. As for Olivia, glad he's got some extracurricular activities!

There were definitely a LOT of changes in this ep, but I do believe it's realistic. Heading off to college is a big transition to begin with, and the Scoobies have literally fought for their lives with each other, were with each other every day, and now they are starting to go in different directions. They are learning to function more as individuals, so their personalities are coming out a little more and they are able to flex their social muscles a little differently.

---------- Post added at 03:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:43 PM ----------

I felt sorry for Giles, but I found it hard to believe a man as intelligent as he supposedly was would have no more employable skills that would lead him to a job. Season 4 felkt kinda weird for me. I kept going "Why the hell doesn't Giles have another job yet?" He never struck me as the sit-around-feeling-sorry-for-myself type.

My thoughts exactly!

---------- Post added at 03:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

Was Willow's change helped by Oz? He had been there before with the band do you think she may have gone with him at times?

I never thought of this. I'm sure getting used to the college vibe was helpful having your "on-campus boyfriend" there. She might have felt more confident and comfortable having him there, plus, yes, he's been there before with the band.

 

[Taake]

- Willow's change from high school student to college

I kind of liked it... I mean, I could see where they were going; if high school sucked because you were a brain then college will be great... ehm yeah, okay, a stronger more confident Willow - great. But insecurities like that don't just disappear with the flick of a switch and even if she would have fitted 'perfectly' into college I would have preferred it if she hadn't been as confident from the get go. That felt to me as though it came a little bit out of the blue and I missed a piece of Willow...

- Buffy's feeling lost

Perfection. At that time in your life I feel like anyone would feel lost and i love that Buffy, with all her superpowers etc, wasn't immune to that. It made her easier to relate to.

- No mention of losing Cordelia or Angel

A bit odd. I mean... they were a big part of it all. Angel a huge part for Buffy, and though I could see why she wouldn't mention her ex - due to the hurt and what not - I feel as though Cordy should have gotten a mention at least.

- Xander's trip and return, also his speech to Buffy

Perfection, both of them, to me.

-Giles' unemployment, and relationships with Buffy and Olivia.

Slightly frustrating to me. Though I feel that part of my frustration came from his own frustration.

How did you feel about so many changes in one episode?

A little bit overwhelming truth be told.

Were they realistic?

Yes I think so. Those days are overwhelming after all.

Should they have done the episode differently?

Hm, well I remember being displeased with Buffy's weakness when facing Sunday, first time around, but now I love it. It's perfect for the episode and as a whole I think they did a good job with it. It's a good ep, even if it felt like a big change coming in from season 3.

 

[kittenpoker]

Awesome questions kim!

I LOVE this episode!!!! I think Buffy's sense of crumbling defeat to her triumphant return to herSELF - to who she really is.... a super hero is wonderfully done and I love that it is (I believe) inspired by Xander. He really is the wind beneath her wings - which is funny cause that's the song she wants played at her wedding with spike in "something blue".... but I digress...

the no mention of cordy sucks and she seems to get the raw end of that stick often. Poor cordy.

Willow's transformation is great!!! I do think it is helped by Oz - he's already so familiar with the campus it probably helps her - gives her an in - also though, I think she's just beginning to come into herself.

It's kind of interesting how their (buffy and willow's) experience is so different.... for buffy it's the adjustment of going from big fish in a small pond - to an ocean where she feels like a small fish.... and willow - having always felt like a small fish begins to really realize her true size - I don't know if that makes sense. I just got home from work and my brain's a little mushy ;-)

anyway buffy's line to sunday about "when you look back on this - in the 3 seconds that you have before I kill you - I think you'll realize that your big mistake was touching my stuff" and of course the awesome stake spin!

and I love when giles runs up in the end "the evil's this way?"

and why is willow carrying two boxes when oz is only carrying one? ;-)

anyway - great ep - and great discussion!!!

 

[sk]

Don't think it's that strange that we got no mention of Cordy.
Must it not had passed like two months or so? Seems like old news and something that you would not still talk about regulary.

And I don't think they where close enough for any, I wish Cordy was here and shared this with us, moments.

Buffy do seems extremely lost in this episode. I think they went a bit too far with it actually.
Understand what they wanted to do with the episode but it got hammered into us too much.
There is one scene when we see Buffy, being very small, with a huge building kinda looming over here. She's linking, with a broken arm and a broken confident.
Seeing that scene always makes me think yeah, yeah, we got it now. It just felt a bit much lol.

Still, it's always fun to see Buffy coming back to her old self again. So it's all worth it.
Reminds me of another season opener, Anne.

And as long as we get scenes like Xander's speech in the Bronze I can take anything.
It's brilliant. Extremely funny and has a lots of heart. Every thing that makes BtVS such a great show.

/SK

 

[brinkster130]

There were a lot of changes all at once but I didn't feel like there were too many. I felt like the ending of season 3 really set us up to expect some big changes.

I agree with [MENTION=8821]Icarium[/MENTION] about Buffy's sense of being lost being a little over the top. I understand that the transition to college can be a very difficult time for young people, but it seemed like enough of Buffy's life was remaining the same that it would have made it easier for her. She still lived in her home town, her mother and mentor both only lived a few minutes away, she was going to school with her best friend, her other close friends still lived and worked in the same town....just seemed a bit forced.

One thing I always wondered was why Buffy and Willow didn't room together from the beginning. It seems like it would have made it easier on both of them with the slayer and witch stuff.

I enjoyed Willows change. It was great seeing her so excited about school and the social aspects of college. I definitely think that having Oz there with her helped the transition.


I wasn't surprised that we got no mention of Cordy. She wasn't exactly buddy buddy with any of them anymore so I don't know how they would have casually brought her up without it being forced. That being said, I don't find it realistic that her character was pretty much completely forgotten about from s4 onward. I do think she would have come up in conversation a couple times, especially since she was working with Angel in the same line of business as the scoobies.

 

[PassionBecoming]

One thing I always wondered was why Buffy and Willow didn't room together from the beginning. It seems like it would have made it easier on both of them with the slayer and witch stuff.

Most universities don't let you choose your roommates, I don't think. At least the ones I know of don't. Even at the one I went to, freshman were required to stay in the dorms and it wasn't easy to change roommates.