July 30-Aug 3 Episode Discussion led by Brinkster

[brinkster130]

Episode: Home (Angel s4)

In this episode we see W&H make the AI team an offer to work there. In the end the gang decide to take the offer.

Questions:

Do you think the team made the right decision to sign on with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel making the executive decision and signing with them without talking to his team, even though the whole gang had already decided they were in?

Do you think the gang felt guilt over stopping Jasmine and the chaos that ensued? If so, do you think that influenced them into working with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?

Do you think Lilah giving Angel the Amulet to help Buffy influenced Angel's decision to work for W&H?

 

[BuffyElevated]

Episode: Home (Angel s4)

In this episode we see W&H make the AI team an offer to work there. In the end the gang decide to take the offer.

Questions:

Do you think the team made the right decision to sign on with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel making the executive decision and signing with them without talking to his team, even though the whole gang had already decided they were in?

Do you think the gang felt guilt over stopping Jasmine and the chaos that ensued? If so, do you think that influenced them into working with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?

Do you think Lilah giving Angel the Amulet to help Buffy influenced Angel's decision to work for W&H?

I never supported the decision for the AI team to take over W&H. I felt like it was a sell-out move, and it was Angel giving in to the dark side. Say what he may about the AI team fighting the good fight with their resources, they were never doing as much good there as they were back in their own offices. At W&H it was like one step forward and three steps back.

I don't know why they took the deal. It could have been guilt; it could have been the pure seduction that the W&H team offered each of them in their own ways.

The mind wipe was horrible. We've seen it before on BtVS, when Willow did it to Tara and it was bad then, and it's just as bad now. Of course it's nice that Angel wanted to give Connor a better life, but remember, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions".

I do think Lilah giving Angel the amulet swayed Angel's decision a little bit. She knew Angel had a big weakness for Buffy and she used it to the firm's advantage here. I can't say I blame her/them, but I definitely think it played a big factor in why Angel took the deal.

 

[Robb Stark]

Episode: Home (Angel s4)

In this episode we see W&H make the AI team an offer to work there. In the end the gang decide to take the offer.

Questions:

Do you think the team made the right decision to sign on with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel making the executive decision and signing with them without talking to his team, even though the whole gang had already decided they were in?

Do you think the gang felt guilt over stopping Jasmine and the chaos that ensued? If so, do you think that influenced them into working with W&H?

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?

Do you think Lilah giving Angel the Amulet to help Buffy influenced Angel's decision to work for W&H?

I think that in the end they deal a pretty devastating blow to W&H, one that they probably wouldn't have been able to make without working there, but ultimately, I think everyone, especially Fred and Wes, would have been better off if they had stayed away.

Probably not the best move, but he did what he had to do. I mean, that wasn't the first time he'd acted like that, nor would it be the last.

I don't think so. I know that Lilah says that they "stopped world peace", but I thought Angel was pretty dead on one or two episodes before when he talked to Jasmine about peace not meaning anything if it wasn't their choice. I thought that was a pretty cool line. I didn't think they had much of a choice in stopped Jasmine.

Aside from Connor being written out of the show (which I loved)? I had no problem with it. Again, Angel has always had a tendency to make those executive decisions, and for better or worse, it was his son, and Connor was about to die. If I had been in the same place as Angel, I think I would have done the same.

I don't think so. Angel tried to return to Sunnydale indefinitely in "Chosen", or at least that was how I read it, so I think the amulet was just kind of a bonus for him. It sure helped out, but I don't think it changed his opinion on W&H and everything they're all about.

 

[brinkster130]

[MENTION=8356]HisMrs[/MENTION] and [MENTION=11975]Always Bangel[/MENTION], thanks for the responses! 🙂 I totally agree that while they did do a lot of damage to W&H, their team also suffered some great losses.


Follow up question:

If Cordy had still be awake and working with AI, how do you think she would have responded to the W&H deal? And, what do you think W&H would have offered her during the tour to entice her into taking the deal?


I personally think they would have offered her visions without the pain. Maybe even offer to take away what Jasmine did to her body so that she could have her shot with Angel.

 

[janas]

I was very surprised at the ease with which all them have accepted the offer from W & H. Angel was the only one to have a strong motivation (save her son from suicide) and I can understand his choice, but the others? What reasons did they have?

Do you think the team made the right decision to sign on with W&H?
I think they was a mistake, however, I exclude Angel from this. For him it was different and I understand why he did it.

What are your thoughts on Angel making the executive decision and signing with them without talking to his team, even though the whole gang had already decided they were in?
Angel has not decided for the team, he decided for himself. He made that decision even if he had spoken with them.

Do you think the gang felt guilt over stopping Jasmine and the chaos that ensued? If so, do you think that influenced them into working with W&H?
I never thought in those terms and I think that maybe there was too, but I'm more inclined to believe that they have been seduced by what W & H has offered them.

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?
For me it is difficult to answer this question. Technically it is wrong, but I do not think that Angel had other choice. To save a son, we are really willing to do everything, even sell the soul to the devil. Considering what Connor said in Not Fade Away (expressed its gratitude), I think Angel has done the right thing. This is also confirmed in the ninth season and Connor thanked his father again, for saving him from madness, allowing him to live a normal life.

Do you think Lilah giving Angel the Amulet to help Buffy influenced Angel's decision to work for W&H?
No. Absolutely not. He has not succumbed to none offer of Lilah. The only thing that put him on his knees, was seeing the desperation in the eyes of his son.

If Cordy had still be awake and working with AI, how do you think she would have responded to the W&H deal? And, what do you think W&H would have offered her during the tour to entice her into taking the deal?
Yes, I think she would accept, just like he did in "Provider" (also she, eventually took the money).

 

[Robb Stark]

This is a tough one. Cordy was clearly super opposed to the W&H deal when she returned in "You're Welcome", but when you think about it, everyone was against it when it was first presented to them. Pretty much all of AI was won over by the end of S4, and I think that would have included Cordy as well.

As for what they would have offered her? I'm not sure. She already had a shot through Skip at a major acting career, so I don't think that would have swayed her. She'd already consented to becoming "part demon" in exchange for pain-free visions (although I'm not really sure if the "part demon" thing was just Jasmine. That whole period was really confusing). Maybe W&H could have expanded her visions? Allowed her to help more people at one time, since they have multiple teams?

 

[Taake]

Do you think the team made the right decision to sign on with W&H?

I can see why they thought it might be a good idea, to 'make a difference', but honestly no - I don't think it was the right decision. Angel is the most easy to understand here, he made 'a deal with the devil' so to speak to save his son... the rest of them were just... well, I think they were swayed by possibilities and promises at a very weak moment in their lives (that year had been rather trying for the whole lot...). But they shouldn't have signed on with W&H, they should have known better.

What are your thoughts on Angel making the executive decision and signing with them without talking to his team, even though the whole gang had already decided they were in?
That always makes me mad. To me he had no right to sign up anyone but himself. These were volunteers to the battle of darkness, they had signed up to be part of his team at one point or another in order to help, and yes they were a form of 'employees' but he should have left the choice up to them as individuals. There should have been a discussion there.

Do you think the gang felt guilt over stopping Jasmine and the chaos that ensued? If so, do you think that influenced them into working with W&H?

No, I think it was the emotional turmoil of all they had suffered through that made them weak to WH's influence. Stopping Jasmine was the right thing to do, all said and done, but what they had to suffer through to get there was a whole lot of miles of bad road.

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?
Taking Connor's memories away makes all kinds of sense, how else could he have a normal and happy life? I never understood the point of taking away the teams memories however... what harm could it have done to keep them in the loop? I thought that was rather reckless and insensitive of him but mainly I don't understand why the writers chose to take it there...


Do you think Lilah giving Angel the Amulet to help Buffy influenced Angel's decision to work for W&H?
Not really. Helping Buffy was a temptation of course but I think he had enough faith in her to truly believe that she could do it without him (whether she could have or not). In the end he was swayed by the need to save his son (as any parent would be) and he took the amulet and went to Sunnydale - IMO - as a kind of 'comfort'. It was safe and familiar, going to Buffy, helping Buffy, and allowing himsef to emotionally regress a little as a way of dealing with the 'loss' of his only child.

 

[brinkster130]

What are your thoughts on Angel taking Connor (and his teams) memories away so that Connor could live a normal happy life?
Taking Connor's memories away makes all kinds of sense, how else could he have a normal and happy life? I never understood the point of taking away the teams memories however... what harm could it have done to keep them in the loop? I thought that was rather reckless and insensitive of him but mainly I don't understand why the writers chose to take it there...

I totally agree with the exception of Wesley. Wesley had to live with the guilt of knowing that he played a huge role in causing so much pain in Connor's life. He also had to live with the fact that he took one of his best friends only opportunity to raise his child away. I think that by Angel taking those memories away he gave Wesley a little peace of mind.

 

[Taake]

I totally agree with the exception of Wesley. Wesley had to live with the guilt of knowing that he played a huge role in causing so much pain in Connor's life. He also had to live with the fact that he took one of his best friends only opportunity to raise his child away. I think that by Angel taking those memories away he gave Wesley a little peace of mind.

I can't help but feel that it wasn't peace of mind at all, it was just a lesson unlearned... without those experiences Wesley loses a lot of what makes him Wesley by that point, what he does and how he does it, and I don't think that it was to his benefit to lose those memories. Without those memories - what would stop him from making a similar mistake again?

Perhaps it made him sleep better at night, but his role in the Connor/Holtz/Angel kidnapping drama ultimately tought him a lesson about himself and pushed him to a new level of maturity and awareness. Robbed of that I mostly feel as though he regressed a little as a character