Kennedy and Willow's past

[YummySushiPJs]

Because just about everything to do with Willow from the midway point of S6 on didn't make a whole lot of sense. She went from being one of the sweetest, most charming characters on the show to an arrogant jerk.

In my opinion it is one of the things throughout the whole of "Buffy" that makes the most sense.
Yes she did go from being a sweet girl into an arrogant jerk, but not just through season 6. Her descent began in Season One and was one of the biggest character arcs on the show. Time and time again we see, or hear reference to, Willow using magic that she isn't ready to use, meddling with things that she doesn't have the maturity to understand, disobeying rules, reading books that she knows Giles is deliberatey keeping from her, that kind of thing. She forever thinks she is on step ahead of the game when it comes to magic when in fact she has no idea what she's into.

Of course, most of the time she is sweet, shy, modest etc. But the seeds are there. Deliberately so.

Her arrogance at the start of season 6 when she talks down to Giles (and he calls her a rank arrogant amateur) is, in my opinion, not the beginning of her downfall, but more a confirmation that the slow-burn downfall we have been watching for the past 5 years is finally coming to a head.

 

[shoshanna33]

I hate Kennedy so I couldn't care less really. But I guess speaking from a distanced standpoint she should have known. But Kennedy was so stupid and clueless i doubt she would have cared. She knew nothing of magic and didn't really care about it. So I don't think it would have matttered to her. She was naive and dumb to magic.

 

[Blaze]

Wow, Willow sure does get a lot of smack on this thread, so I'm just going to come in and play devils advocate here. I'll agree that what she did was wrong. She betrayed Tara's trust and invaded her mind. But, I do not believe it was ever intended that it be considered rape, abusive behaviours yes, but really rape? Doesn't fit the picture to me, anyway that's just my two cents.

Now, for what I believe about the whole redemption thing, I know a lot of people will disagree but I think everyone was right to forgive Willow. And I believe that Tara was also right for giving her a second chance. In this case the storyline to me was meant to portray addiction. To me it wasn't meant to portray direct abuse to Tara herself or to the scoobies (although I see where people are coming from when they say it was mental abuse). But Willow hurting Tara was unintentional in every aspect I believe. Does it make it right, no of course not, but that's what addiction does, it destroys your life and hurts the people around you. Here, I think they were trying to show the difference with and abusive relationship and abusing of a substance. Both hurt people around you, but when you physically hit your partner or try to rape them (cough spike cough), you're trying to hurt them. When you're an addict, you equally hurt them but it's not necessarily done on purpose. And I believe that was the case for Willow. Again, not defending her actions, they were awful, but I don't believe they were unforgivable.

Now, I've had friends with addictions, and I've had a few problems myself (not addiction but clinical depression/anxiety, which also makes you do stupid things sometimes and which was also a big theme in s6). And general rule, when your best friend needs help and is starting to sink, even if they hurt you in the process you stand by their side. In real life if your friend all of a sudden started shooting heroin because of a tragedy in their lives you wouldn't just let them die, you would try to help. Aright, so I'm getting a bit off topic here haha All this just to say that I understand why they would forgive Willow. I know I would have, but again that's me.

Now for the actual topic, yes I believe Kennedy should have been informed about Willow's past, but for some reason, all the talk about dark Willow, and Willow talking about Tara in "the killer in me", as well as the conversation they have in "touched" almost makes me believe that Willow may have told Kennedy off screen. I'm probably wrong about this one but for this I'll agree with the rest of the posters 🙂

 

[SlayerFest]

Would Kennedy still have been interested in Willow if she had known the whole truth?

You know, mostly about what Willow had done to Tara, as in months of brainwashing and rape? Don't you think it's troubling that nobody has the guts to clue her in? Now, I'm obviously not expecting Willow to do that, she's completely rotten nor Buffy because she clearly has zero problems with dating abusive monstrosities and rapists, it probably turns her on or something but maybe Xander? He did tell Riley about Buffy's past after all. No, of course not, he keeps his mouth shut.

Why doesn't anybody have enough backbone to tell Kennedy what she's getting into? She does have the right to know.

I really wish that people would realize that "mind-rape" isn't actually a thing.

---------- Post added at 12:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 AM ----------

Wow, Willow sure does get a lot of smack on this thread, so I'm just going to come in and play devils advocate here. I'll agree that what she did was wrong. She betrayed Tara's trust and invaded her mind. But, I do not believe it was ever intended that it be considered rape, abusive behaviours yes, but really rape? Doesn't fit the picture to me, anyway that's just my two cents.

I agree. It's not RAPE. I'm kind of tired of people throwing that word around to be honest. Was it wrong? Hell yes...but as someone said in another thread, "mental rape" seems to be a term thrown around a lot in order to reinforce just how awful brainwashing is. What she did was a violation of trust and it wasn't okay, but I feel as if it kind of trivializes actual rape to start tacking that word onto things like brainwashing. Maybe I'm feeling overly sensitive tonight but...that's just how I feel.

 

[Robb Stark]

I really wish that people would realize that "mind-rape" isn't actually a thing.

Agreed.

However, I stated this on another thread of a similar topic, and even though I don't refer to it as "mind-rape", I still was a little...off-put by Tara agreeing to take Willow back. I know it was supposed to be this big emotional moment, but it just wasn't for me. I've never been the biggest Tara or Tara/Willow fan, so maybe that plays a part, but all I could really think about was how little self-esteem a person must have to even want Willow back after that. Tara improved by leaps and bounds as a character after dumping Willow (which leads me to believe that Willow really wasn't that good for Tara in the first place).

I get the addiction angle, I do. I get that there are extenuating circumstances (well, sorta). I would have been totally fine if they had become friends again but not lovers (to imply that there are consequences to your actions. But then again, that's not a theme Joss seems to like all that much). But seeing Tara in bed with Willow again, all happy and content, was kinda weird to me. I just don't see how she could ever trust Willow again.

As the saying goes, love makes you do the wacky, but that's a bit beyond wacky.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11753]Fredikins[/MENTION]

I really wish that people would realize that "mind-rape" isn't actually a thing.

I'm not talking about mind-rape, I'm talking about an actual rape, as in intercourse without consent. Tara was being brainwashed, her memories tampered with, it's a situation that obviously precludes consent. Every intercourse with a brainwashed Tara was in fact a rape and Willow is a rapist.
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]

But Willow hurting Tara was unintentional in every aspect I believe.

Of course it was intentional. You can't dope somebody with amnesia inducting date rape drugs, I mean, magic unintentionally. Willow and Tara have problems, instead of facing them and fixing them together Willow decides to fix Tara instead. It's faster and easier and you can get laid instantly afterwards. It's not even about Willow's addiction, it's about her being a bloody sociopath. And more importantly, who cares about Willow's intentions? They are completely irrelevant in this situation.

 

[tec]

Tara and Willows love was consentual thats NEVER been a factor

The only thing Willow was trying to get Tara to forget was a fight a single fight where she snaped at her looking for Dawn at the Bronze Willow dipped into her darkness and said something she IMMEDATLY regreted

What Willow forgot that just because it was a small fight does not give her the right to make Tara forget it thats what Willow forgot what Glory did and how you cant use magic to solve SMALL personal problums

 

[Blaze]

[MENTION=11753]Fredikins[/MENTION]


I'm not talking about mind-rape, I'm talking about an actual rape, as in intercourse without consent. Tara was being brainwashed, her memories tampered with, it's a situation that obviously precludes consent. Every intercourse with a brainwashed Tara was in fact a rape and Willow is a rapist.
[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]


Of course it was intentional. You can't dope somebody with amnesia inducting date rape drugs, I mean, magic unintentionally. Willow and Tara have problems, instead of facing them and fixing them together Willow decides to fix Tara instead. It's faster and easier and you can get laid instantly afterwards. It's not even about Willow's addiction, it's about her being a bloody sociopath. And more importantly, who cares about Willow's intentions? They are completely irrelevant in this situation.

I disagree about the actual rape thing. Maybe Willow erased Tara's memory but she didn't erase Tara's feelings, and sex between her and Tara was always concentual. I see where you're coming from and I understand you're point of view but to me it wasn't rape, nor was it intended to be taken that way.

As for the second part of the post, I'm sorry, I didn't expressed myself right (I'll blame that on writing the post at 2am haha). What I meant was that sure in Willow's state of mind it was intentional, but a sober Willow would never had done what she did on purpose. So for that I agree with you. But again, I don't think Willow just wanted to get laid, as a matter of fact we just see them cuddling. Willow was looking for the emotional component, not the physical stuff imo.

And again, the storyline IS suppose to be about addiction. I'm a neuropsych student, and by definition Willow is not a sociopath. Can sociopath behaviors be brought in by drugs, yes they can, does Willow exhibit sociopath tendances when high, yes she does as by technical terms a sociopath can't inhibit or understand why a behavior is bad. But that doesn't make Willow a sociopath. Presence of symptoms does not mean presence of illness. And remorse shown a few episode later proves that Willow isn't in any type of was a sociopath! Intention and addiction do matter in this situation.

 

[Robb Stark]

I disagree about the actual rape thing. Maybe Willow erased Tara's memory but she didn't erase Tara's feelings, and sex between her and Tara was always concentual. I see where you're coming from and I understand you're point of view but to me it wasn't rape, nor was it intended to be taken that way.

Well (and to be honest I hadn't thought about this until [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]'s post), it was kind of like date rape. There was no way in hell Tara was going to sleep with Willow after the fight they had, Willow essentially drugged her to make her forget it, and they then proceeded to have sex. Doesn't seem very consensual to me.

I agree, I totally don't think the writers intended it to come across that way, but it kind of does. If you brainwash someone into thinking you're better than you are, which Willow does, and then they sleep with you, that's not even close to one hundred percent consensual.

 

[Blaze]

Well (and to be honest I hadn't thought about this until [MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION]'s post), it was kind of like date rape. There was no way in hell Tara was going to sleep with Willow after the fight they had, Willow essentially drugged her to make her forget it, and they then proceeded to have sex. Doesn't seem very consensual to me.

I agree, I totally don't think the writers intended it to come across that way, but it kind of does. If you brainwash someone into thinking you're better than you are, which Willow does, and then they sleep with you, that's not even close to one hundred percent consensual.

I see what you mean, and I agree with what you said, to me it just didn't cross my mind that they had sex in "All the way" (haha just realized this sentence doesn't make much sense with the title of the epi). But if they did, then I agree to a certain extent. If you were talking about OMWF then ya, they did have sex, and it's debatable if it was rape or not. In that case I choose to believe it wasn't (although I'd probably have a different opinion if this was real life.) But I also won't disagree with people that may think it was, it's just not my opinion.

 

[white avenger]

Would Kennedy still have been interested in Willow if she had known the whole truth?


Why doesn't anybody have enough backbone to tell Kennedy what she's getting into? She does have the right to know.

My impression was that Kennedy has the basic belief that she's so special, bad things could NEVER happen to her, so, no matter what anyone else told her, she would have continued to pursue Willow.

What really surprises me, however, is that no on apparently even tried, probably because they felt that saying anything would be somehow disloyal to their friend. I this case, though, I think that the situation and the potential danger overrode simple loyalty. Imagine that Buffy or one of the Scoobies discovered that Angel was head over heels in love with some girl in LA. (Suspend your disbelief, Bangels) How long would it be, do you suppose, before there would be a visit o that little girl's door by someone anxious to tell her about Angel's curse? Dark Willow was every bit as dangerous as Angelus ever laid claim to being. She came as close, if not closer, to destroying the world as he did. With that kind of risk involved, Xander, Buffy, Dawn, and Giles should have done everything possible to keep the girls apart. The fact that they didn't goes way beyond any sense of loyalty. It's positively criminal.

 

[Vorchan]

First off, I love Willow the way a brother would. Her actions, however, cross the line into sexual assault! Her conduct in season 6 makes her a villainess then. It was building for a while- that's the way evil works, people... it never makes itself clear until it thinks it's dominant.
From the First Evil's perspective; this is how you corrupt someone!
My views on her: I percieve her as a younger adopted sister of mine, and I love her in that way.
A lot of the posts here seem to be the perspective of the elder child in the Biblical Parable "The Prodigal Son", I percieve her as a 'prodigal child' too... but we also have to be merciful., sure she did horrible stuff: rape, attempted murder, theft, et cetera.
Look at it from Giles POV: his 'adopted daughter' does this stuff, he'll fight her, but he loves her at the same time.
It's sort of like you have an adopted sister who joins a 'gay gang', rapes someone, tries to commit murder, burglery, et cetera... all sorts of horrible stuff! What she really needs is you to be her brother or sister and just be there for her!
I think they did tell Kennedy, hey, Willow probably let slip that she did horrible stuff very early on in their relationship (Willow/Kennedy relationship), but Kennedy is thought to say "That's all in the past. I love you!",,, could be great fanfic fodder though.
It's possible that Willow was so shocked by what she did that she didn't even want to think about it.
It's also possible that the assaults were almost every night! We are only led to believe it's this once or twice.
I think most of the posts here are anger, rape is a profoundly wrong, hateful act... but those who do horrible stuff are still human (if they are indeed human- biology determins that, NOT public opinion), and must be treated like that.
Did Willow repent? I think she did. Why do I think that? Her remark that she is afraid that she may not be accepted back and that she may not be able to control it- it's the rush of power that's addictive to her, the energy, the strength, et cetera.
Her ultimate fear I think is that she will do the same horrors to another innocent that she did to Tara.
She's basically in a mental hospital at the beginning of season 7. I know what someone in such a situation needs: to know that they are welcome back home.
Maybe Joss Whedon is the sort of man who likes forgiveness stories; good for him! But Willow's acts do carry consequences: she lives in terror that at any moment, she'll go bad again, I know that terror of evil personally, I also know that there are ways to deny it influence.
It can be said that those who are caught are the lucky ones. (in the preternatural sense).
I personally think Willow's vice is lust- for girls, but lust still., doesn't mean she's sentenced to a life of badness though.
Mental-rape doesn't make any sense to me (definition-wise), but what happened in 'All the Way' was actual rape! (To verify, read: "Buffy goes Dark" essays on the final two seasons of BtVS tv series.) NOBODY SHOULD LIKE THAT! But we should be willing to forgive the criminal girl nonetheless.