"Kick his ass:" Xander was right

[hannahfngrl26]

The Bangel lover in me has to scream in protest. I totally feel that if Xander had been honest with Buffy about what Willow was trying to do Buffy would have worked harder to keep Angelus busy until the change. It could have had potential to completely change the way season 2 ended. Now, with that being said I still love the episode and ultimately the ending and that is because I love the pain that is Bangel. It is complex and overflowing with emotion and raw and I love it.

 

[fly on the wall]

This is one of those moments in Buffy people will forever disagree about.

Personally, I think Xander was a little jerk 60% of the time, and the "Kick his ass" comment was a manifestation of that.

But even if it wasn't, even if he had said it to protect Buffy, it still doesn't make it right. That wasn't his decision. It wasn't his information to withhold. It was meant for Buffy, she had a right to know what she was getting into. Having Angel's soul being restored as a complete surprise made it so much worse for her, because she hadn't seen it coming.

To say that stalling Angelus would have gotten her killed....well, I completely disagree. She wouldn't have been stalling him for no reason. She would have been stalling him to save Angel's life. That's a pretty damn good motivation right there.

 

[palabravampiress]

You know... I've given this some more thought and I've kind of changed my mind. I think Xander was wrong to lie. I don't think it's fair of me to defend his actions just because I liked the outcome.

That said, I really do think I'm on board with it because I like outcome. Even though Xander was wrong, the season finale wouldn't have been the same without the big, high stakes, fate-of-the-world-in-the-balance fight scene. As a viewer, I wanted to get all jazzed for the climactic, end-of-season fight. Some sappy message about how she might be able to save the soul of the one she loves wouldn't have fit my mood. I was all like, "Yeah! Kick his ass, Buffy!" I think that's why I'm more forgiving of Xander than I should be: his words echo my sentiments. I watch a show about a vampire slaying superhero who has been struggling all season with her inability to get past her personal feelings in order to kill this specific vampire. As a result, people have died, been tortured, been injured, etc. I don't want her to save the vampire in the end. I want her to slay the vampire in the end. The fact that she loves him and that he comes back at the last moment just makes it all that much more meaningful. Buffy draws the courage to do what is necessary. She makes a huge sacrifice. It's awesome. The acting in that "close your eyes" scene is really good, and I even like the way the lines and actions mimic those of Angel's turning. I think I am more accepting of Xander's lie than I should be just because I liked this season ending so much. It's a great episode. The fact that Xander telling the truth could have changed all of that makes me glad he lied.

What can I say? I'm only human. I shouldn't forgive Xander and I can acknowledge my fault, but darn it if I don't still like his lie.

 

[fly on the wall]

^ I think S2's finale was one of the very best, for the reasons you mentioned. It wouldn't have been the same had it not happened the way it did. Still, I seethe a little bit every time I hear Xander say, "Kick his ass."
I'm complicated. 😛

 

[Kean]

As a Bangel I should really hate how it ended but I adore Becoming. From a moral stand point I am all about the wrongness of what Xander does but from the viewers persective it was must see entertainment. What I do wish theough is that the matter had been given more time during 'Selfless'. It was brought up but never discussed.

 

[Relic]

Buffy was actually there to put a sword into Acathala and seal it, not fight Angelus. Of course, she realized that Angelus would have other ideas, and they would have conflict, but Angelus is not the mission so much as the obsticle.

Xander knows this too, he also knows that Willow just got out of a coma and has never done witchcraft before. He also knows that thus far, Buffy's reactions to Angelus have been less than slayeriffic because of her difficulty seperating Angelus from Angel when it comes to beat-downs and slaying, (just like she told giles herself.) He also knows a vamire has killed her before and if not for him she would have died. Like Angel said, he is her white knight...he's always thinking about her. 🙂

So now that Buffy has her fighting spirit again after Angelus takes Giles, is Xander suppose to rip open that old wound and say their is a slim chance Willow can work some magic and get us Angel back, so try not to kill him unless you have to while your playing pin the tail on the Acathala? I don't think thats reasonable, I think thats like asking someone to sign their friends death warrant.

Speaking of death warrants, Buffy 'killed' Angel, not Angelus and to be honest, since that has such high value in this thread 😉 xander never said to kill either one...just kick his ass.

Xander saying kick his ass is not Xander saying Kill him, its simple reasoning...If Buffy seals Acathala and pussyfoots around with Angelus waiting for Angel to get his soul back, she is waisting time that she does not have as well as taking an unecessary risk...one with dire consequinces if things don't pan out.

If she kicks Angelus butt all over the place and drives him away (which can only happen if Angelus is actually afraid she might kill him) or if she slays him, he can no longer pull out the sword and awaken acathala, as well as the added bonus of no longer being a threat to Buffy during the fight.

In Buffy vs. Angelus, Angelus knows the worst Buffy has managed to do to him is knee his growing. In a possible fight to the death, I would favor the person who is actually willing to kill. If Buffy would have held back at all, I think Angelus would have known it. If Buffy pulls a punch or worse yet does not try to follow through with a staking/decapation/whatever, she very well might get killed because someone who fights to win will usually overcome one just putting in their time. If she was fighting to save Angelus' form for Angel to reinhabit, she's not going to dust him and at this point was does Angelus have to loose?

And of course in this fight she did not hold back, because Xander did not give her the hope to fuel that action. If he had I think the fight might have gone differently.

For xander to say what he did for only the reason of jealosy, to make Buffy murder....that goes beyond the moral dilema joss was talking about when he said he wasn't sure that xander did anything wrong. Tricking your friends into murder I'm going to go out on a limb and say is very evil!

I just can't be convinced that is what xander did, let alone his motive for doing so would be so assenine.

 

[sosa lola]

As a Bangel I should really hate how it ended but I adore Becoming. From a moral stand point I am all about the wrongness of what Xander does but from the viewers persective it was must see entertainment. What I do wish theough is that the matter had been given more time during 'Selfless'. It was brought up but never discussed.

It would have been much better if it was discussed in S3. I mean, S7 is just many years later, the characters are over it and dwelling on it will be unrealistic. So having Buffy and Xander discuss it in S3 would have been much better and honestly, I believe fans wouldn't still be obsessed over it all these years. It'll be resolved and we all can move on.

 

[Kean]

It would have been much better if it was discussed in S3. I mean, S7 is just many years later, the characters are over it and dwelling on it will be unrealistic. So having Buffy and Xander discuss it in S3 would have been much better and honestly, I believe fans wouldn't still be obsessed over it all these years. It'll be resolved and we all can move on.

During 'Dead Man's Party'. There was alot brought up during the living room fight that should have been addressed further and would have led to the 'Kick his as' being dealt with.

 

[InsaneMystic]

During 'Dead Man's Party'. There was alot brought up during the living room fight that should have been addressed further and would have led to the 'Kick his as' being dealt with.

So true! In that utterly painful to watch episode, both Joyce and Xander got away way too easy for my taste. I would have loved Willow "change sides" in the big quarrel and give Xander a good scolding! They're just all over Buffy, even though Xan & Joyce messed up just as much as her, or worse... if I had been Buffy, I would have went packing again that evening, too.

 

[sosa lola]

So true! In that utterly painful to watch episode, both Joyce and Xander got away way too easy for my taste. I would have loved Willow "change sides" in the big quarrel and give Xander a good scolding! They're just all over Buffy, even though Xan & Joyce messed up just as much as her, or worse... if I had been Buffy, I would have went packing again that evening, too.

Buffy had it coming. Just because you went through a tough break it doesn't mean you can run away for three months without one single phone call to tell your family and friends that you're fine but you still need time alone. Imagine your daughter did that to you, or your best friend, that's so awful. I'd be as angry as the Scoobies or even more with my friend/daughter if she did such a thing.

 

[AgentX7k]

I understand Buffy leaving, but not even writing or calling was too far IMO. SHe should have been told off for that, Joyce had a right to be angry.

 

[fly on the wall]

Imagine your daughter did that to you

Yeah, I'd be upset. But after taking into consideration that I kicked her out, I might be a little more understanding, and a little less...Joyce.

Xander and Willow, they were harsh, but I can sort of understand their side more than Joyce's. They didn't know the whole story.

If anyone should be really peeved, it should be Giles. How much money did he spend on plane tickets, flying all over the place trying to find Buffy? 😛

 

[Skanky Vamp]

If anyone should be really peeved, it should be Giles. How much money did he spend on plane tickets, flying all over the place trying to find Buffy? 😛

I think the Wotchers Council comp'd him on those.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Buffy had it coming. Just because you went through a tough break it doesn't mean you can run away for three months without one single phone call to tell your family and friends that you're fine but you still need time alone. Imagine your daughter did that to you, or your best friend, that's so awful. I'd be as angry as the Scoobies or even more with my friend/daughter if she did such a thing.

Whoa, I never said Buffy was right in doing so. Indeed, she did have a lot to account for! I just find it majorly unfair that she's the only one they're all over in the quarrel, when Joyce and Xander both have enough to be held against them, too. Joyce, especially, has no sympathy from me in the situation... she kicked her out, so if she lives in sorrow now where Buffy is gone to - well, tough luck. :nopity:

If anyone should be really peeved, it should be Giles. How much money did he spend on plane tickets, flying all over the place trying to find Buffy? 😛

And doesn't it show how great he is by him being the only one who isn't peeved (or, if the is a peeve, who doesn't let it on at all)? Can't help but love Giles... he's a better surrogate Dad IMO than Joyce is as a mom.

 

[sosa lola]

Joyce, especially, has no sympathy from me in the situation... she kicked her out, so if she lives in sorrow now where Buffy is gone to - well, tough luck. :nopity:

Joyce didn't kick Buffy out. She had said, "If you leave, then don't come back." She was parent-threatening her in order to keep her in the house, safe. Buffy chose to leave. I agree that it wasn't the right thing to say, but I understand why Joyce had said it, she did that to keep Buffy safe.

It's a parents' method to keep their children out of trouble. Parents use it most of the time to keep their children from crossing the line.

To be honest, I understand all the sides in the whole argument. I never really chose a side over the other. It's understandable why Joyce had said what she had said, Buffy just threw a bomb at her, you can't expect her to act rationally. If we can cut Buffy some slack for doing something irresponsible like running away, then we should do the same to Joyce, who had just found out that her only daughter was a superman who fights scary monsters. No mother would want that to her daughter. Joyce just reacted like a real mother would.

 

[Kean]

Buffy had it coming. Just because you went through a tough break it doesn't mean you can run away for three months without one single phone call to tell your family and friends that you're fine but you still need time alone. Imagine your daughter did that to you, or your best friend, that's so awful. I'd be as angry as the Scoobies or even more with my friend/daughter if she did such a thing.

Tough break is a bit of an understatement don't you think? Buffy's entire universe had imploded. Regardless of the wording of what Joyce said to Buffy about leaving the result was still the same, Buffy felt she couldn't return home. From her friends perspectives they had killed the bad guy, to Buffy she was the bad guy. On top of that she had been kicked out of school. It is very easy to see how Buffy felt she had nothing to stay in Sunnydale for anymore. She wasn't blameless in the situation, that goes without saying, but the complete lack of understanding from her friends and family was astounding. Just like in 'Bargaining' theywanted 'their' Buffy back, not the scarred, imperfect version.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

but the complete lack of understanding from her friends and family was astounding.

But that is another reason why Faith, and to a degree, Kendra, was a better slayer than Buffy; because they had no friends to get in the way.

You cannot fault her friends though, there really is no way they could understand what Buffy had to go through. Nor do I think they really wanted to. None wanted to taste the darkness that is Buffy.

She can be their friends, but not the other way around. The only person with whom Buffy could relate, she had just ran thru with a sword.

Dont forget the selfishness of them too, Kean. They threw a party for themselves, not for Buffy. They didnt care what Buffy thought or felt, they just wanted to make it easier on themselves. Selfish. A trait they could continue often.

 

[Kean]

You cannot fault her friends though, there really is no way they could understand what Buffy had to go through. Nor do I think they really wanted to. None wanted to taste the darkness that is Buffy.

See that's exactly why I do fault them. They didn't want to understand her they just wanted her to be over it.

She can be their friends, but not the other way around. The only person with whom Buffy could relate, she had just ran thru with a sword.

Agreed. This is also why I think the Scoobies drift more from season 4 right up until now actually. Angel was Buffy's person (if you'll excuse the Grey's Anatomy reference). He was the person that could look after Buffy, she didn't have to be The Slayer, the person in charge with him. She could share her worries, her fears and her insecurities, both as a woman as a Slayer, with him. She had an emotional release. When he leaves she loses that and we as an audience loses that in to Buffy emotionally. She rarely openly shows herself up emotionally once season 4 kicks in. Without someone to relate to Buffy pulls away from her friends a lot.

Dont forget the selfishness of them too, Kean. They threw a party for themselves, not for Buffy. They didnt care what Buffy thought or felt, they just wanted to make it easier on themselves. Selfish. A trait they could continue often.

Forget? I never shut up about this! lol. I have HUGE issues with the Scoobies and how selfish they are, especially about the consequences it has on Buffy.

 

[sosa lola]

You guys sympathize with Buffy and never really try to see the Scoobies' side of thing. I understand it's because she's the heroine and we see how she suffers more than the others.

But saying that they're NOT her friends? That Angel is the only one who understands? Who's by Buffy's side now? Who never left her side (leave out the very few fights and disagreements the gang go through over the years) Xander and Willow are the ones who never left her side, like it or not, no matter how things get ugly between them, ْXander and Willow always stick by Buffy. Angel left, Riley left, Spike left... and who's still with her helping her through her journey? Xander and Willow.

Xander could have went on living a normal life seeing as he has no powers but he stuck around to the end. Willow could've went to a better college but instead she chose the one Buffy went to. Doesn't that count for loyalty and friendship? Surviving those fights and disagreements that went through the friendship just shows how storing it really is.

 

[fly on the wall]

You guys sympathize with Buffy and never really try to see the Scoobies' side of thing. I understand it's because she's the heroine and we see how she suffers more than the others.

But saying that they're NOT her friends? That Angel is the only one who understands? Who's by Buffy's side now? Who never left her side (leave out the very few fights and disagreements the gang go through over the years) Xander and Willow are the ones who never left her side, like it or not, no matter how things get ugly between them, ْXander and Willow always stick by Buffy. Angel left, Riley left, Spike left... and who's still with her helping her through her journey? Xander and Willow.

Xander could have went on living a normal life seeing as he has no powers but he stuck around to the end. Willow could've went to a better college but instead she chose the one Buffy went to. Doesn't that count for loyalty and friendship? Surviving those fights and disagreements that went through the friendship just shows how storing it really is.

I don't think anyone's suggesting that Angel was the ONLY person there for Buffy. But he WAS there on an emotional level that Xander and Willow were not. Remember what Buffy said, after Angel became Angelus? "It's weird, but when stuff like this happens, Angel's still the first person I want to turn to." (Not a direct quote, but you get the idea.) You can't deny the fact that Buffy needed Angel emotionally, that he was a major support for her.

Buffy appreciates her friends, she knows the sacrifices they've made for her. But at the same time, they DID behave selfishly here, and in other episodes. They're not perfect. They're bound to be selfish sometimes.

I don't buy the argument that they "just didn't understand" what killing Angel would do to Buffy. Okay, so they didn't know he'd been turned back in time. But so what? Killing her first true love, no matter what face he had on at the moment, couldn't have been a bed of roses. On top of that huge, emotionally scarring event, she'd finally confessed to her mother who she really was, and what did Joyce do? Freak out and ban her from the house. Maybe Joyce didn't outright kick her out, but she gave her an ultimatum and made Buffy feel even more like she couldn't return home. And, on top of that, Buffy had just been kicked out of school and became a suspect for murder. Who would have wanted to go back to all of that? Leaving was a little thoughtless. And she realized that, and that's why she came back. The Scoobies and Joyce responded horribly, in a way I don't think they had a right to, had they honestly been trying to understand Buffy's point of view.