"Kick his ass:" Xander was right

[Kana]

The funny thing is that, even though Angel is my favourite character, I've never had an issue with Xander's issues towards him. Xander tended to be quite black and white in the beginning but funnily enough I don't always see this as a negative thing.

Xander's simplification of an issue isn't always an oversimplification and he was able to construct a valid Utilitarian argument for the death of Angelus. If this argument holds up then the his personal issues are irrelevent.

I agree, his personal jealousy of Angel at the time was minute character if one could discribe it as that at all.

For me my main issue is his treatment of Buffy and the fact that he was so easily disappointed in her. However I think this his attitude was due to his gallant heart and his admiration of Buffy. He is, if nothing else, he is a humble and noble protecter, who very much like Buffy is an emotional but caring person. To me Xander's strength in some ways is his weakness: he's human.

 

[DoctorWhovian]

So, you think he wanted him dead without a reason? Nothing supports that Xander wanted Angel dead, except when he became Angelus and Revelations. There was no other event where he wanted him dead. Disliking a guy doesn't mean wanting him dead.

No but hatred might. I already posted the quote where he admitted to hating him.
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People seem to be getting pretty hung up on a hate quote. Teens say they hate things all the time...other friends, boy friends/girl friends, actresses actors/ shows/ books...

Right at that moment in time, you could tell he meant it. He said 'I hated Angel way before you guys...', it was obviously not hyperbole.

 

[PurplePoof]

I'm thinking that while Angel was poisoned by Faith...if Xander was wanting to kill him he would have had plenty of opportunity...if he was left alone with him.

He didn't though.

But to rewind farther back to season 2....

As far as other attempts at killing him go....he knows where Angel sleeps and can get access to a rocket launcher/ military grade explosives. A day time visit with some heavy ordinance and Angel is a memory.

Xander could never take him in a strait up fight, but to say he never had an opportunity to end him (not stake him) is a fallacy. Buffy need not even know..... :devil:

But Xander didn't because thats not his drive or desire. He hates 'Angelus' like a guy hates a friends abusive husband. Pre-Angelus he 'hates' (if you can even call it that) Angel like a kid who grew up in a drunken, abusive home despises a friends binge drinking boyfriend. The abuse is not there, per say, but the possibility of it certainly is.

Thats being protecive of your friends, and if it is a character flaw it is a noble one.

I don't necessarily mean that Xander WOULD have actually...I'm talking more along the lines of principle...okay, I'm being needlessly dense and somewhat confusing...

Xander probably never would have had the nerve because if Angel had somehow averted it (really, would Angel have stayed asleep while Xander crept into his apartment with a rocket launcher?) he'd be a dead man...and Buffy seemed to have a knack for finding things out...if Xander had killed him he probably would've been discovered fairly soon, especially since he sucked at keeping things a secret and was a horrible liar. I wouldn't doubt that Xander had numerous fantasies of killing Angel, however...and the principle still applies.

 

[sosa lola]

I wouldn't doubt that Xander had numerous fantasies of killing Angel, however...and the principle still applies.

I'd say he had fantasies about Buffy choosing him over Angel, and then he'll do a winner dance to get Angel pissed. 😀 I don't think he had fantasies about killing Angel until Angelus appeared in the picture.

 

[Relic]

PurplePoof, tried to karma message you but ran out of room.

Anyways, About not having the nerve or not daring to kill Angel...I don't agree that the nerve was not there so much as the want. He simply did not want to do it.

Xander has stood up to Angelus before, he risks his life daily, I don't think he's afraid of him. As far as not daring to because of a fear of loosing Buffy...thats just it he does dare to with those circumstances in play when he lies to her. He believes he's doing so for her own good, but whose to say how she will react once he lie is known? It is sure to be known, and sure to hurt her and she just might hate him over it., enough people here do 😉

I don't think its any stretch of the imagination to say if he hated Angel like he does Angelus and he was really afraid for Buffy's sake like he is when we throw in the Angelus factor....he would have found a way to kill him, circumstances schmiricumstances.

Xander ain't one for circumstances.

IRT DoctorWhovian....I finally got around to watching season 2 and when Xander says he hates him it's a statement made in ignorance, without a point of reference, and an uncertainty that they can even get the old angel back. I think he basically thinks Angelus and Angel are the same person at that point, I think he suspects they might have always been and that the scoobies have been duped.

So yes I do think he hates Angelus, hates vampires, didn't trust that Angel could be any different, but at the time of the distrust, before Angel turned back to Angelus; I don't think he hated him.

I wouldn't put much stock in the phrasing even if he mentions Angel (Thats how he knows him, afterall) this is the same mouth that utters "Nothing can defeat the penis"

You would be better off judging Xander IMHO for his actions/lack of action and trying to riddle out motive than you would with words he says. He can be irrational/strange at times and that literal meaning can be a red herring or have you chasing your own tale.

I'm not one to say Xander is flawless, I just honestly don't get that he hated Angel so much for taking away an opportunity with Buffy for romance- an opportunity that he did not even have, that he would trick her into killing Angel. Not when I can think of many a reason why thats not the case.

I don't even buy into the belief that he hated Angel at all for that matter, at least not in the same manner he hated Angelus or other vampires. He at least gave him the benefit of the doubt on occasion.

I think he distrusted Angel and did not understand him and worried over what kind of threat he could represent to his friends, it's only after those fears are validated does he claim he hated him all along, which in a sense is more of a hate for the evil, psycho vampire Angel had become; maybe one he suspected might have been there all along?

Its sorta a big "I told you so." After season 2 and 3 and with Anya influence I'm suspecting/hoping he'll treat Spike better as well once Spike gets his soul. maybe he will have a better understanding of it by then? I'm looking forward to finding out!

 

[PurplePoof]

I would never deny that his hatred was certainly amplified when Angelus entered in the picture, as he was obviously a bigger, more immediate, unquestionable threat to the safety of not only Buffy, but everybody else as well. But Xander ALWAYS thought that Angel was dangerous and never trusted him the way the other Scoobies did. Xander was a big obsessive loser...he not only doesn't take rejection well, he carried grudges like a 10-year-old girl. Angel was ALWAYS the guy that Buffy chose over him, and he never forgot it. Were his Angel concerns pre-Angelus just excuses to justify his hate-on? Maybe. To me, he DID hate Angel long before Angelus came along, and I don't think he woulda shed a single tear if Angel somehow conveniently became a dustpile.

 

[Relic]

Giles actually was not a big fan of Angel either, at first. He came around faster, but he had the advantage of age and a dark side and cavorting with demon trip outs.

Buffy loved Angel, should we even use her as a comparison.

Willow is still very malleable identity wise, she looks up to Buffy a great deal, in a sense she's almost infallible to her in the early seasons. Plus if Buffy is dating Angel then Xander can't be; the relationship is not just natural because Buffy said so, but advantageous as well.

So naturally Xander did not trust Angel as much as the other scoobies did, look at what his past date monsters tried to do to him...Xander does not trust Angel nor understand him, but that does not equate hate. I know people I feel like that about as well and I don't hate them or wish them dead.

Xander is a pretty big fan of Riley and I hear he even comes around to liking Spike after he gets his soul, but from punching him in the nose while pretending to go rogue with Faith, to using him as a prop with Spike without an exit strategy or any concern for his safety, Angel has shown very little reason for Xander to like him; trust concerns aside.

I think Xander still sees him as a danger, especially after Angelus because that potential for turning is always there. I imagine he was very happy when Angel left town because he was a possible threat to Buffy's safety and good judgment, not because he was jealous of their relationship.

I don't see Xander hating Angel and wanting him dead.....I just see nothing to back that up on so many levels at so many instances.

If that was the case and Xander was all hateful and grudge-filled, don't you think when Xander caught Buffy with Angel after Angel was sucked into hell (all animal like and chained to a wall) he would have hit the army depot went back to the apartment and blew wall chained Angel back to hell, no questions asked no comment given? He was more concerned about Buffy's mental health and decision making though, plus I don't think all this revenge stuff your talking about as far as grudges goes is really Xander (at least the early season Xander I'm familiar with.)

Instead he went back to his friends who then talked it out with Buffy, as in this instance they had time to do so and noones life was on the line.

Of course your entitled to your opinion, as am I. Fact does not back either because we can't sit down and interview the character and are just going off of conceived motive and theoretical happenings. (I don't think he'd be overjoyed if Pre Angelus Angel got dusted, it would hurt Buffy too much.) Still, talking about it is a lot of fun.We likely will never agree on this, Purps. but that in part is what makes the show so good.

 

[PurplePoof]

I'll surrender this argument to you...I don't care about Xander enough to continue to argue about him any further. 😉

That, and that to argue your very specific points further I'd have to whip the DVDs out...and I'm just far too lazy...

 

[BuffyElevated]

Well I am done commenting on this post 'cause I think it's just going around in circles. I'll just have to agree to disagree with the Xander Haters. 😉

 

[fly on the wall]

I can't be bothered to go through and quote things, but I just want to make a few points.

- Xander originally disliked Angel solely because Buffy had a crush on him. Before any of them knew he was a vampire, Xander didn't like him.

- This is proven by later episodes, after they find out Angel is a vampire. Xander was the only one unable to accept that Angel was GOOD. Willow had seen the evil vampires could do...she had been in the exact position Xander had been in S1, her life had been threatened, her friend had been killed, yet she's able to accept Angel, because Buffy likes him. Hell, Giles even accepts Angel, and he's worked most of his life to rid the world of demons like him. Buffy is the Slayer, she looked past the fact that Angel was a vampire. Xander is the only one who can't, and yeah maybe it's because he truly hates vampires that much...or maybe it's the fact that, at least in these early seasons, he's a very petty person. No one's saying Xander has to be perfect, but I don't think a character's flaws should necessarily be admired, either.

- As soon as Angelus emerges, Xander latches onto that and won't let go. The others realize that it's not ANGEL doing those horrible things, and that asking Buffy to kill him is an extremely difficult thing to do...Willow in particular is sympathetic. But Xander isn't. From the get-go, he's against Angel. Not just Angelus. But Angel, too.

 

[Skytteflickan88]

When I watched the scene for the first time, I hated Xander for doing it, because I thought it was just out of jealousy and unjust hatred.

I thought he did it because he didn't want angel to come back. But now I remember that he hesitated. And made his choice. He must have reliazed that Buffy would hate him if she ever found out, but I think he figured that the world might end if he didn't lie. That alone would have been reason enough.

Now if the world wouldn't have been in risk, he should have told her and they should have waited until Willow ensould him, dragged him home and given him a hug. But that wasn't the case, so he did the right thing, and hopefully for the right reason.

However, I always hated Xander for being so mean, both to Angel and Spike after they got their souls back(although unsouled Spike trying to rape Buffy should take years to get over). But with Angel he acted like a sadistic child. I mean okay, he's been raised on a Hellmouth and lost so much of his innocence and childhood, but if you get possessd by a hyena, tries to rape and kill your best friends, get de-possessed and still act like a jerk towards people who had a similar experience, you need to grow the hell up.

And you know what, I hope that in Season 8, he has. I would really want to see him interact with Angel and Spike now, to see if he's grown. His actions from early seasons still haunts me.

 

[sosa lola]

Xander is the only one who can't, and yeah maybe it's because he truly hates vampires that much...or maybe it's the fact that, at least in these early seasons, he's a very petty person.

He dislikes Angel because Xander likes Buffy and Buffy likes Angel, it's jealousy. That doesn't mean he hates Angel or wishes him death, if he did, he would have cheered Kendra on when she suggested killing Angel, instead he defended Angel by saying "Angel is our friend. Except I don't like him." which shows that even though he dislikes him, he doesn't want him dead.

Xander hates Angelus because he's hurting Buffy, almost killed Willow and Xander, made fun of Xander's feelings for Buffy and gloated over Buffy choosing "him", threatened Joyce, kidnapped and tortured Giles, killed Jenny and, well, was an awful person that should be hated. That vampire is someone Xander wants dead, not Angel.

- As soon as Angelus emerges, Xander latches onto that and won't let go.

Actually, Xander had been supportive to Buffy for a long time after Angelus came to the picture. It was when Angelus killed Jenny that he had enough and wanted Angelus to be dead as soon as possible, and honestly, I can't blame him.

And you know what, I hope that in Season 8, he has. I would really want to see him interact with Angel and Spike now, to see if he's grown. His actions from early seasons still haunts me.

Watch S7, it shows a mature Xander who finally accepted Spike as part of them.

About Xander and Spike, it's funny that only Xander gets trashed for being "mean" to Spike, but it's okay for Spike to mock and be mean to Xander.

 

[Relic]

warning season 5 & 6 spoilers ahead.......


I have always saw the Spike and Xander thing as a wierd friendship among guys who talk crap, argue, and give charlie horses to oneanother. Like Xander calling him "Evil Dead" and Spike calling him 'lack-brain' or cuffing him on the back of the head and saying "this is going to be worth it" when Xander is in repeato-boy mode concerning Ben and Glory.

I don't think Xander hates Spike in mid season 5 and after; (After Spike proves himself so to speak), it's just their way of 'them being them'.

When Spike burns his hands bad when the gang is hiding from Glory fighting the zelots and he's having a hell of a time getting his fingers to work his lighter, who walks over to him and lights the cig for him? Xander.



When Buffy is brought back in season 6, Spike and Xander have a little spat about Spike's pursuit of Buffy and if he would pick up where he left off.
During the argument Spike comments why he imagined Willow didn't tell him about bringing her back...that if something went 'wrong' he imagined Willow did not want him to know because even if she had came back bad or broken and the rest of the core four had to put her down, Spike would fight them on that as long as even a part of Buffy was in 'it'. I think that was an eye opener for Xander and won him some more respect and distance from the vampire label in xanders head.(those two play that scene really well) he let Spike have the last word because wrong or right I think he knew it as truth.

Xander gets this almost stunned look on his face and deep down I think he not only agrees with Spike, but gets a new appreciation for Spikes feelings. (maybe not though, I'm just getting in to season 6)

Latter when Willow calls and says they were attacked in the house (by the thing the scoobies created on accident when they brought Buffy back) Xanders first response is "vampires?" not "Spike?" I think he still hates and loathes vampires as his favorite kinda monster to despise. I think though at this point in his character growth he's starting to understand there are very rare exceptions to that rule.

In part this may be due to Anya and how she changed from her vengence demon ways, or how he was a slave to 'possession' when he was hyena boy. Maybe he's finally willing to give that benefit of doubt to vampires or at least Spike. I'm not thinking thats the big factor though.

The reason why I say that is that I'm thinking in his mind vampires and his feelings about them are in a whole different catagory than other beast/demons because of Jesse and Angelus and their very personal effects on him. Also to take into consideration is how Buffys lack of opportunity to have a normal life is rooted in vampires first and foremost in title as well as origin. And another thing to mention, the only thing to Kill Buffy up to season 5 had been a vampire, and if not for Xander she would have stayed that way despite Angel being there. (no breath comment)

What i feel might play a larger part are the actions of Spike himslef.At the end of season 5 and into 6 Xander realizes (I think) that a creature of the very same race as the Master, the original Killer, was actually fighting for Buffy to survive against Glory. That even after Buffy is gone, this creature keeps a promise to her and honors her memory. I think he comes to the conclusion that Spike actually loves her, and imagine this makes it even harder for him to understand.

One thing going for this factor having a heavy influence early on is Spike is still Spike when he has a chip, he just learns to exist with and in one case love a human. He changes as a person/creature. Angelus and Angel are two seperate identities and their is no change in the monster short of a disguise.

I have a feeling Spike will have an interesting role in shaping Xanders future thoughts on vampires. I'm looking forward to seeing more, thus far season 6 has not disappointed me! 🙂

 

[Wild At Heart]

This is a touchy subject. I can agree with both sides but in my own opinion, I just thought it was wrong for Xander to say that as her friend. I know that the whole situation could be dangerous again from Xander's perspective then but he wasn't in love with Angel like Buffy was so I think that of course changes things ALOT. That's just my opinion though.

 

[sosa lola]

This is a touchy subject. I can agree with both sides but in my own opinion, I just thought it was wrong for Xander to say that as her friend. I know that the whole situation could be dangerous again from Xander's perspective then but he wasn't in love with Angel like Buffy was so I think that of course changes things ALOT. That's just my opinion though.

He's going to understand what Buffy felt like in Selfless 😉

 

[fly on the wall]

Latter when Willow calls and says they were attacked in the house (by the thing the scoobies created on accident when they brought Buffy back) Xanders first response is "vampires?" not "Spike?" I think he still hates and loathes vampires as his favorite kinda monster to despise. I think though at this point in his character growth he's starting to understand there are very rare exceptions to that rule.

Well, I'm not sure if Xander hated Spike at this point or not...but I don't think this is evidence that he didn't. Spike COULDN'T have attacked The Scoobies...he still has the chip, remember? And the Scoobies knew that Spike's love for Buffy was real. He wouldn't harm her or her friends because he loved her. That doesn't necessarily mean Xander liked him or trusted him...it just meant he trusted that Spike loved Buffy.

 

[bigmoneygrip]

A couple of things I thought about that go into why Xander said "kick his ass".

First, like other posters have mentioned, he wasn't sure Willow's spell would work (however, she was which is pretty bold, given that she was still a novice - maybe that was her own foreshadowing of how powerful she would become?) so Buffy would need no distractions to fight Angelus.

Second, when Willow was unconscious, he told her "I love you" - when she woke up, though, she asked for Oz. Xander seemed really hurt by that and maybe that made it easier for him to lie about what Willow said.

 

[sosa lola]

Well, I'm not sure if Xander hated Spike at this point or not...but I don't think this is evidence that he didn't. Spike COULDN'T have attacked The Scoobies...he still has the chip, remember? And the Scoobies knew that Spike's love for Buffy was real. He wouldn't harm her or her friends because he loved her. That doesn't necessarily mean Xander liked him or trusted him...it just meant he trusted that Spike loved Buffy.

I believe he started to accept Spike as one of them in S7, there were many opportunities for Xander to accuse Spike and demand his death after Him, but he'd always reacted calmly and rationally when the subject revolved around Spike.

Second, when Willow was unconscious, he told her "I love you" - when she woke up, though, she asked for Oz. Xander seemed really hurt by that and maybe that made it easier for him to lie about what Willow said.

I doubt it had anything to do with this. I think your first reason applies more as well as keeping Buffy's fighting spirits high and wanting Angel to get the death he deserved after all he'd done to them.

 

[AmongFriends]

After reading a bunch of posts, I agree that it was alright for Xander to lie to Buffy because it probably helped her fight better. Whether or not Xander did it because he knew that or because he didn't like Angelus is up in the air.

First off, Xander has always been the one in the Scoobys to not be able to get "grey" area when it comes to situations. He sees black and white. To him, Vampire = Stake. That was something that always got to me about Xander. He never really shook off his prejudice of vampires and demons even though he went out with Anya and fought alongside Spike and Angel for years. Personally, I think Xander was just being lame and wanted Angel to die. Regardless, Angel did die...sort of... 🙂

 

[sosa lola]

I think it's more about killing Angelus, and not Angel. Xander never wanted to kill Angel, if he did, he'd have cheered Kendra on when she'd suggested killing Angel.