Knox's Death in "Shells"

[LadyLavinia]

From ATPOBTVS forum:

"This is the first time, in my memory, that we have seen or heard of a soul being extinguished in the Buffyverse, which makes it all the more shocking and painful in Fred's case, and seems to me like the highest crimepossible (which is why I think Wesley's murder of Knox was completely justified as well as his stabbing of Gunn, and perhaps even just...Knox went way too far, Gunn, though complicit, did not in any way attempt to destroy a soul)."

"Leaving Knox alive to influence Illyria and possibly point her back down her dark path would have been a grievous tactical error."

******************

The above comments came from the ATPOBTVS forum, regarding the episode "Shells". Apparently, two people believed that it was okay for Wesley to murder Knox in cold blood. What is it about our society that believes that murder for revenge is justifiable? And why do people make excuses for killing someone in cold blood, like that "“ even if the victim is considered "evil"?

 

[Roonblah]

My two cents:

I'm not an advocate for killing people, but it seems to me that it's not so much a society thing as a human nature thing. As a race, all I see is killing and revenge. People retaliating for slights and wrongs left, right and center, in all sorts of ways (murder, law suits, name calling, flaming, gossip). I can see why Wesley did what he did, and to be honest, it didn't really make me think any less of him. An innocent life was taken, who knows how many more lives Knox could have affected had his plans for Illyria come through? Stopping that just seemed to mimic what goverments, military and law enforcement agencies of the world do anyway, albeit in a more extreme way. As to why people make excuses, I'm not sure. Perhaps it is a lack of taking responsibility. Though I can't recall Wesley making an excuse. He just did it and that was that. Does that make him more like a soldier in a war against the evil in the world?

A loaded question.

(disclaimer... because you know with topics like this you kinda always need one... this is just my opinion. I'm not making digs at governments, soldiers etc or giving people reasons to kill. Thank you)

 

[LadyLavinia]

My two cents:

I'm not an advocate for killing people, but it seems to me that it's not so much a society thing as a human nature thing. As a race, all I see is killing and revenge. People retaliating for slights and wrongs left, right and center, in all sorts of ways (murder, law suits, name calling, flaming, gossip). I can see why Wesley did what he did, and to be honest, it didn't really make me think any less of him. An innocent life was taken, who knows how many more lives Knox could have affected had his plans for Illyria come through? Stopping that just seemed to mimic what goverments, military and law enforcement agencies of the world do anyway, albeit in a more extreme way. As to why people make excuses, I'm not sure. Perhaps it is a lack of taking responsibility. Though I can't recall Wesley making an excuse. He just did it and that was that. Does that make him more like a soldier in a war against the evil in the world?

A loaded question.

(disclaimer... because you know with topics like this you kinda always need one... this is just my opinion. I'm not making digs at governments, soldiers etc or giving people reasons to kill. Thank you)

I cannot see killing a defenceless man in cold blood, as an act by a soldier in a war against evil. Yes, Knox committed evil, when he had set up Fred to be killed by Illyria. But when Wesley had killed him, he was defenseless at the time. And Wesley was in an emotional state of rage over Fred's death. The only thing I see is murder for revenge. I don't see how anyone can make excuses for Wesley's behavior. Do they do it anyway, because Wes is one of the show's major characters? And because Knox was responsible for another major character's death? Did double standard on the viewers' part led them to make excuses for him? It seemed so to me.

 

[Mulder22]

It's crazy that no one (myself included) really batted an eye when Wes did that. Or even when he stabbed Gunn for that matter. I think that Wes had come so far and done so much as a character that he was an emotional reck because Fred was one of his main reasons for going on in life. I don't condon what he did but if I was in the same situation I can't say I wouldn't do the same.

 

[Spuffy57]

The above comments came from the ATPOBTVS forum, regarding the episode "Shells". Apparently, two people believed that it was okay for Wesley to murder Knox in cold blood. What is it about our society that believes that murder for revenge is justifiable? And why do people make excuses for killing someone in cold blood, like that "“ even if the victim is considered "evil"?

i hated Knox and i am glad Wes killed him. keep in mind this is a tv show in the buffyuniverse...its not like they are saying its ok to kill for revenge in reality. Its part of the show and most have probably learned that by now

I probably would've done the same as Wesley did anyway

 

[eponinethen]

What is it about our society that believes that murder for revenge is justifiable? And why do people make excuses for killing someone in cold blood, like that "“ even if the victim is considered "evil"?

I definitely agree with you.

I understood Wesley perfectly well, and I honestly didn't (and still don't) think less of him because of what he did. I don't really care that it was wrong of him, because Knox just wasn't a character I ever cared about. But, I definitely agree that it was morally wrong. As I see it, murder can never be defended, it's never right or justifiable. It can be understandable and sometimes almost even inevitable, but to me it can never be justified or morally right.

 

[Xin Rong]

I think wesley was wrong for doing but its kind of like no one can blame if for doing it because good reason for doing so even though it was wrong, was a bit annoying though how noone ever questioned or said anything about it to him especially since they usually make big things about killing another person e.g. faith, fred/gunn, buffy (when she thought she had killed warrens girl friend), willow, angel etc.

 

[LadyLavinia]

If a character who was not part of the AI Team . . . and not very sympathetic had murdered Knox in the same way as Wesley . . . and for the same or similar reason, would any of you had gone to the trouble to either defend his/her action, make excuses for his/her actions or comment that you understood where he/she was coming from?

Or have many of the viewers have been making excuses for Wesley, because he is a beloved main character?

 

[Wesley's Sylyna]

I wouldn't say it justifies Wesley's stabbing Gunn. But it was justified with Wesley shooting Knox. Because Knox did kill Fred by having Illyria take over Fred's body, that was murder.

 

[eponinethen]

I wouldn't say it justifies Wesley's stabbing Gunn. But it was justified with Wesley shooting Knox. Because Knox did kill Fred by having Illyria take over Fred's body, that was murder.

Yeaaa... Because if someone kills someone, you have the right to kill them.
(Oh and that was sarcasm by the way 😀 )

And also, Knox didn't see it as if he killed Fred. He did it because he liked Fred so much. He certainly had an odd way of showing it but that it why he did it. I'm not saying that makes it okay, just saying that makes him kind of crazy.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

Yikes!

Okay, I'm jumpin in. Let's see. While I do agree that Wesley really made a bad judgement call against killing a human, I am having a hard time the Knox was punished for his actions against Fred.

Knox was a person who was trying to not only destroy one life, he was trying to destroy many lives in attemtping to bring Illyria and her army forth. His actions definitely should have won him a swift and hefty punishment. We punish people in America for far lesser crimes than that. The fact that Knox deserved to be punished is evident. That is a problem that our country faces. We are too concerned with being 'politically correct' and caring about the 'evil' person's feelings, instead of doing the correct justice upon them.

Now, sometimes it's an act of pure violence or revenge that accomplishes the punishing. While I'm not condoning Wesley's action of delivering punishment upon Knox, I am agreeing with the fact that it needed to be done. Also, because they were dealing with a mystical aspect, that was the only way that Wesley could handle the situation.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I'm still reading excuses for Wesley. And quite frankly, I find them questionable.

According to some of you, it's okay for Wesley to kill Knox, because he's not a main character and he was responsible for Fred's death. Whereas Gunn, who was also responsible for Fred's death, should not have been stabbed. Doesn't anyone see the hypocricy in this belief? I do. Wesley is being excused, due to the double standards of the viewers.

You know, I find it appalling that this society believes it's okay to indulge in a little vigilante murder, because someone might get away with another murder.
That's not justice. I would call it indulging in a personal thirst for revenge and violence. And it's also one of the worst acts of pure selfishness. That is exactly what Wesley did. He had indulged in his personal and very selfish desire for revenge and violence. I don't admire him. I have nothing but contempt, because he allowed his feelings for Fred (illusional and immature that they were) to indulge in his own darker nature.

And many viewers excused his actions, because they had a selfish desire to see Knox get punished for killing off a "beloved" character. No one wanted to admit that all Wesley did was lower himself to Knox's level.

 

[Wesley's Sylyna]

And also, Knox didn't see it as if he killed Fred. He did it because he liked Fred so much. He certainly had an odd way of showing it but that it why he did it. I'm not saying that makes it okay, just saying that makes him kind of crazy.

Well I would say Knox was crazy. The way he saw it was the only way to have Fred was to destroy her in some way, and he did.



Yes we know that Wesley has done some questionable things in the pass, but the were all justifiable, he believed he was doing what was right. Besides all most everyone else on the show had done some stuff that was questionable or down right wrong; hello... Angel trying to kill Wesley, or Gunn making a deal with a demon or Gunn being power crazy because of the lawyer knowledge in his head or Angel bonking Darla which resulting in Connor.

 

[Xin Rong]

OK well if wesley was right for killing knox because he killed fred, then two wrongs do make a right and willow was right for killing warren, if not even more right because there love was purer than wesleys and freds

 

[Xander]

Its hardly surprising that we can justify murder whereby someone would apparently kill someone (or something, never clear) for a cup of coffee, a cigarette or something else. I know its an idiom but still, part of our every day language.

Killing people as revenge is something that has gone on in literature dating back to Shakespeare, and possibly earlier but never read any Chaucer or anything. Anyway at the end of the day it is what it is, a piece of fiction. Yes I would (probably) never justify murder, but this is a world with ancient demons taking over women, vampires with a soul and where hospitals seemingly dye and style your hair while your in a coma.

 

[nerd4hire]

I'm not a big fan of revenge in my personal life, mainly because it doesn't work, but I just watched the Kill Bill movies, and I really enjoyed all that acrobatic, slice and dice, revenge-violence stuff. I mean, Hell, it's just a movie.

As for the Wesley thing, I gave that one a little more thought, because I think you were meant to.

Wesley was pretty messed up at the time. He'd been toughened by his time at AI, darkened by Lilah's influence, outright corrupted by his time at Wolfram & Hart, and then emotionally destroyed by having the love of his life taken away.

Also the characters in Angel have an unusual set of circumstances. They are, in a sense, the law, when it comes to supernatural matters.

Wesley took advantage of that. His disturbed psyche pushed him to perform in a manner Angel had just said was wrong.

Was it wrong? I think so. Do I care? Not really. At the end of the day, it's just a movie, and I still like the Wesley character, even if he does do some pretty messed up stuff. I make excuses for him. Sue me. 🙂

 

[buffetofsporks]

I really don't think it was the producer's intent to try and justify the killing of a human being. I mean, just a couple of seconds before Wesley shot the gun Angel was telling Illyria how he would protect any human being, even if they were of Knox's level, because it was the right thing to do. If anything, they were trying to say that what Wesley did was just as wrong as what Knox did.

In the end, though. It is just a fictional television show. The only reason they made Wesley kill Knox was to establish the fact that Wesley was in a real state of, well I kind of want to say insanity. But whatever. It was just a plot move that sort of moved Wesley's character farther into his hole than he already was. I'm not justifying it, or saying it was the right thing to do. But it was the right thing to do for Wesley. Simple as that.

 

[THE BLUE]

Know had it coming. I didn't see Wesley that white and emotionless before (even not in season 4) and I wasn't surprised when he killed Knox. Over-reacted? Yes. But Knox is the reason that Fred is gone and her soul is destroyed. So practically, Knox is responsible for her death. Did I say 'death'? Oh no, not death, because Fred is destroyed as she was never been born. Nothing of her had remained. She didn't go to heaven, sorry for that, because she was destroyed along with her soul. Knox at least died with his soul intact. So, no, I don't see revenge here.

 

[Warlock]

Late to the discussion but I belive that I can actually contribute a little something.

Legally speaking, there is little cause for us to argue justifiable homicide. Although the characters have frequently set themselves up as judge, jury and executioner, this is generally accepted to be only as regards demons. The cases in which humans have been killed (by the main cast) are very few (offhand, I can only recall 3 in both series), and are all associated with immense stress.

If asked to defend Wesley in a court, I'd argue temporary insanity.

 

[PrincessZombie]

The above comments came from the ATPOBTVS forum, regarding the episode "Shells". Apparently, two people believed that it was okay for Wesley to murder Knox in cold blood. What is it about our society that believes that murder for revenge is justifiable? And why do people make excuses for killing someone in cold blood, like that "“ even if the victim is considered "evil"?

Well, it's just television. Most people have much more relaxed morals when it comes to tv and movies. It's not as if someone would actually approve of this in real life. I thought it was okay for Wesley to kill Knox, but I wouldn't condone it in the real world.