I agree. I would not condone it, however I can not say that I blame him....and if I was in his shoes I probably would do the same thing. I don't know if that makes me a bad person or what, but it is just how I feel. (I am not saying it is right though)
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Knox's Death in "Shells"
- Thread starter LadyLavinia
- Start date
I agree. I would not condone it, however I can not say that I blame him....and if I was in his shoes I probably would do the same thing. I don't know if that makes me a bad person or what, but it is just how I feel. (I am not saying it is right though)
PrincessZombie
Logan+Veronica=LoVe
Exactly. And it's really hard to try to apply this situation to real life, since Fred's death was supernatural. In real life, I probably would have just called the cops on Knox, but they couldn't exactly have done that in AtS!I agree. I would not condone it, however I can not say that I blame him....and if I was in his shoes I probably would do the same thing. I don't know if that makes me a bad person or what, but it is just how I feel. (I am not saying it is right though)
Exactly. And it's really hard to try to apply this situation to real life, since Fred's death was supernatural. In real life, I probably would have just called the cops on Knox, but they couldn't exactly have done that in AtS!
Yeah, take Knox to the cops exclaiming, "He killed our beloved friend!" Only to have them ask where the body is and they can only shrug and say, "see that superpowered, blue-tinged woman walking around..." No, our justice systems are not equipped to see Knox get his correct punishment for the crime of murdering Fred. Which in many countries, would be his execution, so ultimately I think Wesley actually did the right and just thing by killing Knox.
Having said that, I don't think any of this concerned Wes when he shot him, he was merely acting out of a need for personal vengence.
And having said that, bravo, Wes. I was (almost literally) aching for him to blow that weasle away and would have done it alot sooner, and perhaps have used something a little more medieval or appliance based than a handgun, if I was in his position.
Think about yourselves in the same position. This guy's killed someone you love dearly, maybe the only true love you've ever known, and he's not only getting away with it but it appears he may be about to rise to some position of power. How many of us would walk away saying, "Oh well, I can't do anything about it because it would be wrong." I'd kill him without pause and not loose any sleep over what I'd done.
buffhead
Time's up...Rules change!
I always hated Knox. From his first appearance on the show. So when that happened, I was so excited. I especially loved the fact that he shot him right after Angel had this big long speech about how he would save Knox cus he was a part of the human race, and he would save him before Illyria anyday, and BAM!!! That was great!!! But then I love it when Wes gets to use his guns. Like when he was shooting at the Beast. That was cool, and the slow-mo made it better. Even though it didnt work, and when he shot Skip. But as far as vengeance goes, the fact of the matter is there is no one Wes wouldn't kill if they were going to hurt Fred, as evidence he shot who he thought was his father in "Lineage" cus he threatened Fred. And one of my favorite quotes is right after he shoots a lawyer in the leg and says "Jennifer, please send anyone else who isn't working Ms. Burkle's case to me." Wes is awesome.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
You consider Knox's murder . . . cool? Just because you hated his character?
I do for sure. It's not that I think murder is cool or that Wes was correct in what he did. It is just because I hated Knox so much and it is a TV show.
buffhead
Time's up...Rules change!
I do for sure. It's not that I think murder is cool or that Wes was correct in what he did. It is just because I hated Knox so much and it is a TV show.
I agree, completely. Its not like I would ever encourage what he did, but its totally understandable. I would probably want to do the same thing. Im not sure if I would, cus I have never been in that position. But its just a tv show. So yah, I thought it was cool.
freakydorky
Naughty Kitten 'rawr'
I think it would have been so much cooler if Spike had killed Knox. Maybe it's just me, but I think Spike likes people to think he doesnt care about anyone, but he got really close to Fred, I think he was the only one in ATS who care enough about him to help.
buffhead
Time's up...Rules change!
I think it would have been so much cooler if Spike had killed Knox. Maybe it's just me, but I think Spike likes people to think he doesnt care about anyone, but he got really close to Fred, I think he was the only one in ATS who care enough about him to help.
Well, she was the only one who wanted to help him, and he did show that he got close to her. In a Whole in the World, he said "not this day, not this girl" that to me shows right there exactly how much he did care for her. And he was the one that saved her from Pavayne in Hell Bound. We knew that he cared for her. But he was not in love with her. That was Wes, and i am totally happy with the fact he shot Knox, I think it was appropriate, and I love Angels response, after the speech he gave about saving people, then bam. were you even listening?
Jonut
Wanna Blessed Be
I for one condone the death penalty and think for certain crimes it should be introduced back into society. Knox commited murder, he willingly killed fred to raise his God. That be murder. He deserves to be punished for taking a life. This is Angel, court systems and fair trials do not apply. He admited he did it, no question of guilt or innocence and he deserved to die. Simple as. Was just happened to be the one to carry out the sentence.
Going down that road, Gunn would have been tried as an accomplice as he played a part in the death of Fred, but as he did not commit murder he would have a lesser sentence. He got stabbed in the gut. Justice is done all in all.
Going down that road, Gunn would have been tried as an accomplice as he played a part in the death of Fred, but as he did not commit murder he would have a lesser sentence. He got stabbed in the gut. Justice is done all in all.
LadyLavinia
Scooby
I for one condone the death penalty and think for certain crimes it should be introduced back into society. Knox commited murder, he willingly killed fred to raise his God. That be murder. He deserves to be punished for taking a life. This is Angel, court systems and fair trials do not apply. He admited he did it, no question of guilt or innocence and he deserved to die. Simple as. Was just happened to be the one to carry out the sentence.
Going down that road, Gunn would have been tried as an accomplice as he played a part in the death of Fred, but as he did not commit murder he would have a lesser sentence. He got stabbed in the gut. Justice is done all in all.
This is very disturbing. Really. I cannot believe that someone would drum up an excuse like this to condone murder or in Gunn's case, assault. This is sick.
Wesley had committed murder. Period. I understand that he was mad with grief. But what he had done was wrong. I think that it takes a sick society to excuse murder on the basis of "private" justice or condone murder out of revenge.
Jonut
Wanna Blessed Be
This is very disturbing. Really. I cannot believe that someone would drum up an excuse like this to condone murder or in Gunn's case, assault. This is sick.
Wesley had committed murder. Period. I understand that he was mad with grief. But what he had done was wrong. I think that it takes a sick society to excuse murder on the basis of "private" justice or condone murder out of revenge.
I'm sorry but if Knox had been completely innocent then it would have been a completely different matter, but it was him who chose to murder in the first place so needs to accept the consequences of his actions. He killed with no remorse and therefore I believe he too should have been killed with no remorse. I'm all for an eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth.
I am a supporter of the death penalty, I do not believe in rehabiliation for mass murderers in prison, the victims families deserve closure after having their loved ones taken away without goodbyes. There are some sick people in world, if a animal killed or injured somewhere, noone complains if they get put down or killed. A man drove to murder is not much more than a vicious man reduced to animal instincts, I don't see much difference.
Angel is a show after all, so the rules are going to be a bit different. Maybe if Knox had showed some remorse, at least Gunn was completely guilt stricken, then I might have had issue with Wesley shooting him. As it is I don't, and if that makes me a bad person, I'm sorry.
T
Tucker's Cousin
[No message]
The Arcane
Scooby
- Joined
- Jan 2, 2005
- Messages
- 1,686
I tend to judge the actions of others, even fictional others, based upon how i believe i would react in the same situation. Not society overall, just myself. Period!
See, regardless of what society's rules may suggest and attempt to control, we humans are not all that civilised and the more we pretend that we are, the more the opposite tends to happen. In other words, as human society attempts to repress it's animal nature, that same nature is fighting it's way back to the surface and becoming all the more violent because humanity has been trying to surpress it for so long that we are forgetting how to control it. You ever ask yourself why violent crime is on the increase and why there are more serial killers and psychos on the streets now than ever before? The answer is simple. Humanity has been trying to ignore it's origins for too long. Deep down inside we are animals, people, live with it!
Okay, what does all that have to do with the thread topic? Well, everything, really. The basic question is whether what Wes did was wrong, and judges by society's laws and rules, of course it was. But judged by me? Not wrong at all! Wes did exactly what was required, both for him and for the mission at hand. No namby pampy, boohooing about right and wrong, just a pure, instinctual reaction to the problem in front of him.
Wes avenged the woman he loved and in doing so he removed a potential threat to himself and his friends. Was it murder? Yep! Was that wrong? Not in my opinion because, believe me, if somebody ever ritualistically sacrificed somebody i loved i would do exactly the same thing and to hell with society. Sometimes the most just thing a person can do is listen to his or her most primal instincts because that is where true justice lives.
See, regardless of what society's rules may suggest and attempt to control, we humans are not all that civilised and the more we pretend that we are, the more the opposite tends to happen. In other words, as human society attempts to repress it's animal nature, that same nature is fighting it's way back to the surface and becoming all the more violent because humanity has been trying to surpress it for so long that we are forgetting how to control it. You ever ask yourself why violent crime is on the increase and why there are more serial killers and psychos on the streets now than ever before? The answer is simple. Humanity has been trying to ignore it's origins for too long. Deep down inside we are animals, people, live with it!
Okay, what does all that have to do with the thread topic? Well, everything, really. The basic question is whether what Wes did was wrong, and judges by society's laws and rules, of course it was. But judged by me? Not wrong at all! Wes did exactly what was required, both for him and for the mission at hand. No namby pampy, boohooing about right and wrong, just a pure, instinctual reaction to the problem in front of him.
Wes avenged the woman he loved and in doing so he removed a potential threat to himself and his friends. Was it murder? Yep! Was that wrong? Not in my opinion because, believe me, if somebody ever ritualistically sacrificed somebody i loved i would do exactly the same thing and to hell with society. Sometimes the most just thing a person can do is listen to his or her most primal instincts because that is where true justice lives.
T
Tucker's Cousin
Here, here!
I'd like to hear some possible courses of action that the people in the "Let Knox live!" camp have. How could the team have handled the situation better?
They couldn't get the police involved because they'd want to see a body. So could the Wolfram and Hart people of devised a punishment like they did with Pervane? Is that fairer? Do you think Knox would have been rehabilitated after such a punishment, given his obsessive love/worship for Illyria?
Having considered all the other possible options, I still don't have a problem with Wes killing him.
They couldn't get the police involved because they'd want to see a body. So could the Wolfram and Hart people of devised a punishment like they did with Pervane? Is that fairer? Do you think Knox would have been rehabilitated after such a punishment, given his obsessive love/worship for Illyria?
Having considered all the other possible options, I still don't have a problem with Wes killing him.
The above comments came from the ATPOBTVS forum, regarding the episode "Shells". Apparently, two people believed that it was okay for Wesley to murder Knox in cold blood. What is it about our society that believes that murder for revenge is justifiable? And why do people make excuses for killing someone in cold blood, like that "“ even if the victim is considered "evil"?
okay, well that's a very interesting thing to say, bkoz i can honestly say that if i were in Wesley's position, where somebody I loved so much had been killed in such a horrible way, when they were so innocent, and even their soul was destroyed, I'd do the same.
Knox was an evil, decietful lyer and he could have even caused the worlds destruction had he stayed alive to influence Illyria. I believe Wesley had not only the power to kill Knox, but the right.
Edmund Blackadder
Scooby
Eunsoma, no one has 'the right' to take another Human Life.
Justifiable Maybe, but never the right.
Justifiable Maybe, but never the right.