Lena Dunham, Feminism, & the Feminist Attitude

[Noitartst]

Recently, I read an article where Lena Dunham, the creator of Girls, said she was annoyed when she heard some women weren't feminist. To her, feminism essentially about social equality, and if you didn't believe you should serve your man just because he was a man, well, you were a feminist, in her book.

Well, I wish I still had access to the article, to quote it verbatim, but it got me thinking, because under it, even I, a sociallly conservative male, could argued to be a feminist, mainly because I think that we are, and should be, equal under the law, that women can get jobs if they want, that if women wanna wear pants, I'm not gonna make a federal case out of it, and stuff like that.

Lena Dunham believes in "feminism," but in my estimation, is not a feminist, because of her attitude, which a lot of genuine feminists decry, and for good reason. A true believer starts not with belief, but with attitude, and that attitude, more than specific beliefs, are what give a movement its vibe. As a result, the genuine feminists are more than a little concerned about their movement--and they should be.

The feminists see their movement being handed over to a bunch of silly, frivolous, tattoo-donning post-feminists, dames which claim to be feminists, but aren't namely because they don't see things in terms of gender struggle, like they do.

Beyond the apostate post-feminists, the feminists have to contend with the large numbers of women who don't deem themselves feminist, but pretty much share the beliefs of Lena Dunham, and certainly don't want the right to an abortion to vanish.

To wit, feminist sensibilities have permeated the culture; feminist sensibilities, on the other hand, have not; get it?

As such, people have pondered the meaning that Lena Dunham and her series has on popular culture, and I think it's pretty obvious. Namely, I think the forces of polititical correctness are fraying internally, and the initial forces that brought feminism to the fore are an increasingly spent force, and while I'm sure I'd hate Girls, it seems to be furthering certain causes--and attitudes--that I find conducive....

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I agree with her.

I think trying to put a static meaning to the word feminist is to hard a task. I think the base of feminism should be wanting completely equal rights - which I'm guess is the point she was putting across in the article, anything past that is extra.

Other people may deem themselves more of a feminist. But thats the case in any kind of large movement. In religion you'll have people who are Christian who go to church on christmas and you'll have the "better" Christians that do it every Sunday.

Thats nice for them and they can think of themselves as better, but it still mens the same thing to both type of person, they both consider themselves Christian.



I think in this particular case, there is a sense of irony in the "better" feminists wanting to exclude someone from their term because they don't deem her as having done enough to warrant it though.


Side note I LOVE Girls, think Lena is awesome and I'm completely obsessed with the show. I don't really care about it's message or whatever, but I think she's doing something great for women on TV. As I show, I love the characters and the story, it's funny, totally relatable and I think an accurate representation of young-mid twenty people.

 

[Spikefan31]

I guess I'm a feminist, then. I've never really considered myself one because I don't actively participate in any feminism-related organisations or activities, but by her definition I suppose I count as one.

I just googled Girls and it looks like a pretty good show. I might have to check it out. 🙂

 

[Gum Gnome33]

My favorite way to explain my view on feminism is actually through the voice of the character Ainsley Hayes, associate White House council on the tv show The West Wing. She's a republican (though I am not) who has been hired the by democratic, (and very left-leaning) Bartlet administration because of her intelligence and the particularly effective way in which she challenges the staff for the better. (And all of that "political image" nonsense as well!)

Anyway. In one scene, her colleague and friend, the deputy of communications, is concerned that he has offended her by complimenting her on her revealing dress--thereby pointing in a very obvious way to her sexuality. She assures him that he hasn't, and wants to move on to the assignment at hand. Celia, a nearby secretary, is outraged that Ainsley won't stand up for herself, and makes her views known. Here is the conversation that ensues:

AINSLEY
He's not a sexist.

CELIA
If you're willing to let your sexuality diminish your power.

AINSLEY
I'm sorry?

CELIA
I said, I'm surprised you're willing to let you sexuality diminish your power.

AINSLEY
I don't even know what that means.

CELIA
I think you do.

AINSLEY
And I think you think I'm made out of candy glass, Celia. If somebody says
something
that offends you, tell them, but all women don't have to think alike.

CELIA
I didn't say they did, and when somebody said something that offended me,
I did say so.

AINSLEY
I like it when the guys tease me. It's an inadvertent show of respect that
I'm on the
team and I don't mind it when it gets sexual. And you know why? I like sex.

I don't think that whatever sexuality I may have diminishes my power. I
think it enhances it.

CELIA
And what kind of feminism do you call that?

AINSLEY
My kind.

GINGER
[from over her shoulder] It's called Lipstick Feminism. I call it Stiletto
Feminism.

SAM
[intrigued] Stilettos?

AINSLEY
You're not in enough trouble already?

SAM
I suppose I am.

CELIA
Isn't the point that Sam wouldn't have been able to find another way to be chummy with a woman who wasn't sexually appealing?

AINSLEY
He would be able to, but that isn't the point. The point is that sexual
revolution tends to get in the way of actual revolution. Nonsense issues distract attention away from real ones: pay equity, child care, honest-to-God sexual harrassment and in this case, a speech in front of the U.N. General Assembly. So, you, [to Sam] 25 percent on the assessments for Category A. You... [Charlie looks up.] I don't know what your thing is. [turns to Celia] And you, stop trying to take the fun out of my day. With that, I'm going to
get a cupcake.

In this scene, "Celia" represents the pre and post "backlash" feminist stance wherein addressing a woman with regard to her sexuality is inherently insulting and unwanted because it objectifies and, therefore, diminishes her. Ainsley represents the "lipstick-feminist" attitude which is essentially, as you were saying, that feminism simply refers to equality of the genders and that it is a woman's choice whether or not to take offense at any comments relating to her appearance, in the same way in which men do. In essence, it asks for the more traditionally "feminist" issues which have more to do with calling out men for being "sexist" to be taken off the table in favor of addressing those with greater significance in the interest of women.

Now I'm no fool, I understand that it is a slippery slope on the way to finding oneself objectified to the point at which she is valued solely because of her looks--or for that matter, rejected or undervalued because of them. But "feminism" doesn't--or shouldn't--attempt to preempt all instances of social indecency. If a man (or a woman) is going to be crass or hurtful, whether using sexuality as his target or not, then his/her comments should be treated as such and dismissed in the same way they would be if they were directed toward a man. All of the feminist principles in the world won't stop that person from being an a$$.

Ultimately, feminism in my opinion, is about equality. I don't understand the distinction you made between "genuine" feminism, and Dunham's view that focuses on the equality of the genders. The former, as you've pointed out, are caught up in aesthetic or superficial cues which THEY insist demeans women--and they subsequently are livid that such women are representing them--or the movement. Ironically of course, this attitude is just about as anti-feminist, (or really I should say "anti-female") as it gets. Calling women "frivolous," or "slutty," or "tattooed," or "revealingly-dressed" is far more of a backward fall in the road to equality than a woman's willingness to be objectified if she so desires, wouldn't you say?? When a woman calls another woman out on her "lack of feminism," simply because she enjoys being complemented on her appearance, how the heck does that qualify as "feminist?!"

"Buffy" is a show about a young woman who chooses to answer her call of duty, saving the world from the forces of darkness, in cute outfits which often feature low-cut tops and short skirts. Do the outfits get in the way of her work? Do they make her less effective? No. That, in and of itself, is an lil' metaphor for feminism, right there.

I think in this particular case, there is a sense of irony in the "better" feminists wanting to exclude someone from their term because they don't deem her as having done enough to warrant it though.

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION], couldn't agree more. I also really like "Girls!"

 

[Noitartst]

I agree with her.

I think trying to put a static meaning to the word feminist is to hard a task. I think the base of feminism should be wanting completely equal rights - which I'm guess is the point she was putting across in the article, anything past that is extra.

Other people may deem themselves more of a feminist. But thats the case in any kind of large movement. In religion you'll have people who are Christian who go to church on christmas and you'll have the "better" Christians that do it every Sunday.

Thats nice for them and they can think of themselves as better, but it still means the same thing to both type of person, they both consider themselves Christian.

I think in this particular case, there is a sense of irony in the "better" feminists wanting to exclude someone from their term because they don't deem her as having done enough to warrant it though.


Side note I LOVE Girls, think Lena is awesome and I'm completely obsessed with the show. I don't really care about it's message or whatever, but I think she's doing something great for women on TV. As I show, I love the characters and the story, it's funny, totally relatable and I think an accurate representation of young-mid twenty people.

You have to understand what I'm against when I say I'm against feminism. WHere I agree with "hard-core" feminists, it is where they see post-feminists as not being opposed really to femininity, and the means masculinity, and that leads to a respect to patriarchy, and that....

Ever read The Next Hundred Years? It really talks about the economic underpinnings of feminism, of how kids ceased to be an economic asset, and how this shift of dames to the workplace was just first recognized in the 1960's. To hear the feminist line, well, it sounds like there was a male conspiracy, and there wasn't.

The shifts of economics and culture had been long under way, by then, and a shift in thought was needed, but the story told by the feminists during their revolution made man, specifically patriarchy, the enemy, and that's an egregious error of narrative.

If feminists changed their story so that patriarchy ceased to be the enemy, then I'd cease to be against feminism, but that hasn't happened. Instead, post-feminism has, and its attitude clearly doesn't hate masculinity. On the contrary, it wants something from the masculine, and in balance, finds that in the offing most...disappointing.

Dunham comes at her feminist beliefs with this in mind, and as such, I appreciate her as a harbinger of hope for the gender wars. Much of what Dunham was saying, basically, dovetails under liberalism. I'm leery of lideralism, too, but at least with liberalism it's not so ideologically dense, and the feminism is more diffuse.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take Lena Dunham seriously at all. Her version of "feminist" (to me) just appears to be about acting out as rediculously as possible and showing her body as much as possible. Sorry, but everyone is over seeing your ass and boobs, Lena.

As far as being a feminist, I do believe in equal treatment for the sexes and I don't like the old-fashioned stereotypes that women should be seen and not heard. But I'm not gonna go burning my bra or anything like that.

 

[Kean]

I think a lot of people confuse Lena Dunham with Hannah Horvath and that just isn't the case. Quite frankly, Lena Dunham is Hannah's dream come true. If you hear Dunham actually speak about the creation of her show and the process she goes through, she is incredibly articulate and authoritative. Simply by being in the position she is in, doing the job she is doing, Dunham is a wonderful expression of Feminism because she has carved out a space for herself that has traditionally been closed off to women.

As for her show I think it is blatantly obvious that it is written to be ironic. It isn't quite a satire or even a real commentary but rather a snapshot of what 20 something life can feel like for some people. The characters certainly lack self-awareness and I think in that respect lies its appeal. I don't think there is any feminist agenda about the show, but I do think it is interesting that people seem to want to force that label upon the show simply because it is created/produced/directed and lead by a female cast. I find it even more interesting that so many people are offended by this woman's body.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take Lena Dunham seriously at all. Her version of "feminist" (to me) just appears to be about acting out as rediculously as possible and showing her body as much as possible. Sorry, but everyone is over seeing your ass and boobs, Lena.

As far as being a feminist, I do believe in equal treatment for the sexes and I don't like the old-fashioned stereotypes that women should be seen and not heard. But I'm not gonna go burning my bra or anything like that.

How is she acting as ridiculously as possible? Like Kean said, in any interview she comes across as incredibly up to date with current issues in feminism, and very articulate on how to get her point across. She seems to be very well spoken and with an actual passion for it rather then trying to push her show under a wave of feminism press.

I think a lot of people confuse Lena Dunham with Hannah Horvath and that just isn't the case. Quite frankly, Lena Dunham is Hannah's dream come true. If you hear Dunham actually speak about the creation of her show and the process she goes through, she is incredibly articulate and authoritative. Simply by being in the position she is in, doing the job she is doing, Dunham is a wonderful expression of Feminism because she has carved out a space for herself that has traditionally been closed off to women.

As for her show I think it is blatantly obvious that it is written to be ironic. It isn't quite a satire or even a real commentary but rather a snapshot of what 20 something life can feel like for some people. The characters certainly lack self-awareness and I think in that respect lies its appeal. I don't think there is any feminist agenda about the show, but I do think it is interesting that people seem to want to force that label upon the show simply because it is created/produced/directed and lead by a female cast. I find it even more interesting that so many people are offended by this woman's body.

I think exactly the same thing, there is a million miles between her character and herself and I think people just expect that they are the same, and expect her to be the entitled girl she plays in the show.

The body issue thing is crazy because I really doubt her plan was to get naked and be like "this will spark discussion on feminism", I think she got naked on the show and people labeled it some kind of feminist statement.

If Alison's character was naked on the show as much as Lena was it wouldn't have had the same effect, and people wouldn't be outraged, all the press would be - "oh how typical of Hollywood, why don't they show a real girls body like Lenas!"

The show makes way more comments on young 20 - 30 year olds and their perspectives on life and yet feminism is the only thing the press seem to focus on as the shows message.

 

[Tuppence]

All different views taken in and points made, my opinion on feminisim is simple. It's about equality and choice. You have the choice as a woman to have a career, to not have children, or to have career and children, or have children and not a career, or to not marry, or to stay single, or to be a housewife if you wish. You can be happy to have men comment on the way you look or you can choose to be outraged or somewhere in between. It's not about a particular life choice making you feminist, or a particular opinion, its about having the freedom to choose that life choice and not have it forced upon you (and similarly not forcing your own choice on other women).

 

[BuffyElevated]

[MENTION=5973]Black Eye Guy[/MENTION]
I just don't care for women who are constantly flashing themselves all over the place. Lena DOES come across well in interviews but I don't like her in the episodes I've seen. And since she's the creator of the show and her character, it kinds makes me think she's a lot more like her character than people know.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Statements such as those in the OP which criticize women for either being too nonchalant about feminist issues or for embracing sexuality in a brazen way, ultimately demean these women, and are obviously problematic. When women who view themselves to be unwavering feminists decry the notion of female sexuality as empowerment, they themselves are the ultimate anti-feminists.

I don't think that Lena set out to take any particular stance on the movement when she started the show; I think she wanted a platform on which to speak honestly about the experiences of those she has known, in a humorous and insightful way. The fact that she is a woman who created a series and did not intend to make a specific contribution to the feminist agenda when doing so is obviously upsetting to these staunch feminists. But Lena as an artist (I believe) doesn't want to be treated differently because she is a woman, nor does she want special considerations for her show. That is the particular branch of feminist values to which I adhere. Equality, pure and simple. I can do what my womanhood what I wish, just as a man does with his manhood. If a man starts a series and it is not immediately criticized for its statements or lack thereof on the plight of men in all of their masculinity, then let's not do the same for women.

 

[Kean]

This just popped up on my Tumblr dash, thought it was relevant to our discussion here.

Source.

Also, just some notes the OP added after posting:

1) Truly did not mean for the one slide to sound cissexist. My apologies. Yes, men definitely can be feminists. Sorry for leaving that out!

2) Did not literally mean "do whatever you want." Please make sure what you do is safe and doesn't harm anyone, including yourself. Also, adhere to your personal morals and use common sense and stuff. Otherwise, go for it.

3) Yes, there are women who claim to be feminists and also hate men, but that's misandry, not feminism.

 

[Noitartst]

I'm sorry, but I just can't take Lena Dunham seriously at all. Her version of "feminist" (to me) just appears to be about acting out as rediculously as possible and showing her body as much as possible. Sorry, but everyone is over seeing your ass and boobs, Lena.

As far as being a feminist, I do believe in equal treatment for the sexes and I don't like the old-fashioned stereotypes that women should be seen and not heard. But I'm not gonna go burning my bra or anything like that.

Well, I believe in equal treatment, too. I like Dunham's feminism, as I said, mainly because she's not a real feminist, given her attitude. Yeah, she believes in equality, but it's simply part of her left-wing political views, and she doesn't seem much interested in politics, to boot, per her storytelling, anyway.

People take Dunham serious because they think Girls says something, and I think that "something" is post-feminist, disinterest in politics, and acting like an entitled, taking sponge that doesn't mind plunging head first into bad relationships.

I think liberal women like to label anything that's popular with women as "feminist" if at all possible, given that they have a guilty conscience over how un-feminist most female interests are.

As a result, we have absurdities like Sailor Moon portrayed as feminist icons, for one. (If there's anything feminist, there, it's been basically shoehorned in to justify masochistic pratfalls.)

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Well, I believe in equal treatment, too. I like Dunham's feminism, as I said, mainly because she's not a real feminist, given her attitude. Yeah, she believes in equality, but it's simply part of her left-wing political views, and she doesn't seem much interested in politics, to boot, per her storytelling, anyway.

While I agree with preferring her form of feminism, I don't think caller her not a real feminist is correct.
Your taking he definition of a feminist as a hardcore feminist, which it's not, that is a certain minority not the majority.

(just to explain also, by saying I prefer her form of feminism, hardcore people just annoy me whether its religion or whatever else)

People take Dunham serious because they think Girls says something, and I think that "something" is post-feminist, disinterest in politics, and acting like an entitled, taking sponge that doesn't mind plunging head first into bad relationships.

I think liberal women like to label anything that's popular with women as "feminist" if at all possible, given that they have a guilty conscience over how un-feminist most female interests are.

As a result, we have absurdities like Sailor Moon portrayed as feminist icons, for one. (If there's anything feminist, there, it's been basically shoehorned in to justify masochistic pratfalls.)

I agree that I don't find the show feminist, I find it a look at the entitled nature of young people. But I don't think it's guilt thats labeled the show feminist, it's everyone, and the main reason for that is that the show is being lead by a Women who's doing what other shows have been afraid to do on television.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Yeah, she believes in equality, but it's simply part of her left-wing political views,

I'm about as left-wing as they come but I don't think a belief in equality is unique to my political party. I certainly hope it isn't.

and she doesn't seem much interested in politics, to boot, per her storytelling, anyway.

If she were a man and she told stories about corn shucking, would people insist that she isn't interested in politics? Or would they automatically realize that the stories she tells don't necessarily reflect the breadth of her concerns or her knowledge but are merely one aspect of what she has chosen to share with the world?

...disinterest in politics, and acting like an entitled, taking sponge that doesn't mind plunging head first into bad relationships.

Entourage is a show that basically encompasses almost all of the above qualities through its characters. So is Seinfeld. Even How I Met Your Mother, for the most part. Why is it that when a woman writes a show, we all expect that she and her characters all embody what we think is the ideal woman (or person) instead of appreciating the specifics of the story she is trying to tell? The show isn't about politics, so political beliefs may not take center stage. The characters ARE entitled and are trying to navigate their coming of age as they realize that the world does not work as they had thought. They screw up. We relate to them. Does Dunham have some sort of responsibility to present her characters in some other setting so that they are role models instead of merely human beings bumbling through life?

I think liberal women like to label anything that's popular with women as "feminist" if at all possible, given that they have a guilty conscience over how un-feminist most female interests are.

Well, by definition if a woman takes an interest in something, it should be considered "feminist."

 

[Noitartst]

While I agree with preferring her form of feminism, I don't think caller her not a real feminist is correct.
Your taking he definition of a feminist as a hardcore feminist, which it's not, that is a certain minority not the majority.

(just to explain also, by saying I prefer her form of feminism, hardcore people just annoy me whether its religion or whatever else)



I agree that I don't find the show feminist, I find it a look at the entitled nature of young people. But I don't think it's guilt thats labeled the show feminist, it's everyone, and the main reason for that is that the show is being lead by a Women who's doing what other shows have been afraid to do on television.

As I've said, I'm defining by attitude, not by beliefs, per se. By defining terms by beliefs, I could be labeled pretty nigh feminist, myself; social conservative that I am, this is mortifying.

Focusing just on belief, what separarates is largely the form "equality" takes. If equality means as many Mulan characters as Cinderellas, forget it, but if you're talking equal treatment under the law, count me interested.

Also, feminism has a tendency, in my experience, to make issue with gender diffeences, and parade them as issues of inequality, when they really aren't. I call this tilting at windmills, and don't expect this to go anywhere.

WOmen want to be beautiful, and feminists take umbrage to this. Yes, there's the fashion industry, but studies of Iranian women , I hear, who cover themselves up, are even more body conscious than their western counterparts. I have no love of stick figures, mind ya, but for women, I believe it's hardwired that they wanna look pretty--full stop.

As for Girls, "everyone" may well be calling it feminist, but intellectuals are a lot like hitchhikers, looking for rides that are going their direction, whether they truly are or not. Some may say Girls is the furuture of their movement, but I say it forecasts its end. The show seems more about the feminine struggle, rather than the feminist, or gender struggle.

As such, I can welcome it.

---------- Post added at 05:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:44 PM ----------

All different views taken in and points made, my opinion on feminisim is simple. It's about equality and choice. You have the choice as a woman to have a career, to not have children, or to have career and children, or have children and not a career, or to not marry, or to stay single, or to be a housewife if you wish. You can be happy to have men comment on the way you look or you can choose to be outraged or somewhere in between. It's not about a particular life choice making you feminist, or a particular opinion, its about having the freedom to choose that life choice and not have it forced upon you (and similarly not forcing your own choice on other women).

Here's an irony--I lament the media, which is quite pro-feminist in outlook, for lionizing Mulans, and on the other hand, feminists lambaste that same media for promoting stick figures (whatever they are).


Me, I just want art, and I don't like ideological sideswipes, such as Mulan, and I hate them getting lionized because of it. I'm no Cinderella fan, mind you, but rather, I just want red meat tales without pandering.

 

[SlayerFest]

The body issue thing is crazy because I really doubt her plan was to get naked and be like "this will spark discussion on feminism", I think she got naked on the show and people labeled it some kind of feminist statement.

I just saw this:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/lena-dunham-nudity-on-girls-not-meant-to-shock/2013/03/10/43d41396-898f-11e2-a88e-461ffa2e34e4_video.html

and I agree...people see it as a statement or something because like she said in the interview, women who aren't super thin are rarely shown nude on television. I don't see what the big deal is, at all. I haven't watched Girls yet because I could not stand her movie Tiny Furniture...but I'll have to give it chance one of these days.

 

[This Year's Girl]

Also, feminism has a tendency, in my experience, to make issue with gender diffeences, and parade them as issues of inequality, when they really aren't. I call this tilting at windmills, and don't expect this to go anywhere.

WOmen want to be beautiful, and feminists take umbrage to this. Yes, there's the fashion industry, but studies of Iranian women , I hear, who cover themselves up, are even more body conscious than their western counterparts. I have no love of stick figures, mind ya, but for women, I believe it's hardwired that they wanna look pretty--full stop.

Seems to me that you're have taken upon yourself to define how all feminists and women are. What gave you that authority?

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Seems to me that you're have taken upon yourself to define how all feminists and women are. What gave you that authority?

His wife. 😉

a.k.a. She Who Must Be Obeyed

What the quote has presented here are observations. Observations are neither feminist or antifeminist. They are simply there, and any editorializing based on observations can be questioned, but observations (if they are true) have no ideology attached to them.

 

[This Year's Girl]

His wife. 😉

a.k.a. She Who Must Be Obeyed

What the quote has presented here are observations. Observations are neither feminist or antifeminist. They are simply there, and any editorializing based on observations can be questioned, but observations (if they are true) have no ideology attached to them.

Observations can have ideology attached to them if they are presented in a certain context. Like this one. And if you think about it - is any observation free from subjective thoughts? I don't think so. We all have "filters" made up by our experiences. It's hard, maybe impossible, to observe the world from a neutral position when you're living in it at the same time. 🙂