Let me get this straight; they'll bring back Warren and The Master, but...

T

The Scourge

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Let me get this straight; they'll bring back Warren and The Master, and even work at resurrecting Giles, but won't bring back Cordelia or Wesley? Lame.

Cordelia and Wesley had perfect deaths in the show, but comics is a different medium. If Joss can just play willy-nilly with life and death for the Buffy characters than he should at least have the decency to do the same for the Angel characters.

Hell, he even ignores the Angel characters that are alive in the comics!

I just get really tired of the way he prioritizes Buffy above all else, even at the expense of Angel.
 
H
Hale Caesar
[No message]
Totally agree! I don't understand this either. I missed them too. And Oz. Why Joss why? 🙁
 
Cordelia and Wesley was brought back temporarily in the After the fall comics(and Cordleia later on, but I'd rather pretend that didn't happen, it felt cheesy), which are called canon by Joss(some people argue that they're not canon anymore, but until he says otherwise...). So it's already been done. I actually think it was enough to bring back Wesley, that was very well done. Bringing back Cordelia felt weird, specially since her return in season 5 was kind of a resurrection in itself. But it worked.

Bringing back those characters in season 9 would be old. We've said our good byes, it was beautiful, please don't mess it up, is basically my thoughts on the subject. Joss had already brought back too many characters before Warren and the Master. I think the cut off point was Cordelia.
 
Skytteflickan88 said:
Cordelia and Wesley was brought back temporarily in the After the fall comics(and Cordleia later on, but I'd rather pretend that didn't happen, it felt cheesy), which are called canon by Joss(some people argue that they're not canon anymore, but until he says otherwise...). So it's already been done. I actually think it was enough to bring back Wesley, that was very well done. Bringing back Cordelia felt weird, specially since her return in season 5 was kind of a resurrection in itself. But it worked.

Bringing back those characters in season 9 would be old. We've said our good byes, it was beautiful, please don't mess it up, is basically my thoughts on the subject. Joss had already brought back too many characters before Warren and the Master. I think the cut off point was Cordelia.
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I understand. In fact, this would most likely be a non-issue for me if Joss hadn't disregarded 5 years worth of Angel canon and ditched his supporting characters. At least bring Gunn, Connor, and Illyria back into the fold. I just want something of Angel in the comics. Ignoring his show canon, ditching all of his friends from his own show, and only being around Faith is just wrong. Even if the comic is pretty good.

It would like having season 10 of Buffy dropping everyone else and having her go on adventures with Oz. Yes, it could be awesome; but why bother?


Also, if Cordelia was brought back she would give him a swift kick in the pants about his plan to resurrect Giles. She was always able to get through to him.
 
The Scourge said:
I understand. In fact, this would most likely be a non-issue for me if Joss hadn't disregarded 5 years worth of Angel canon and ditched his supporting characters. At least bring Gunn, Connor, and Illyria back into the fold. I just want something of Angel in the comics. Ignoring his show canon, ditching all of his friends from his own show, and only being around Faith is just wrong. Even if the comic is pretty good.

It would like having season 10 of Buffy dropping everyone else and having her go on adventures with Oz. Yes, it could be awesome; but why bother?


Also, if Cordelia was brought back she would give him a swift kick in the pants about his plan to resurrect Giles. She was always able to get through to him.
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Oh, I definitly think we need Connor visiting London. He called, he must be worried, he'll hopefully visit soon. I wouldn't be suprised if that was the plan.

I hope we get a mini series of the character in L.A. No need to bring them to London, just show them trying to make sense of where Angel is but living their lives just done without him.

It could be that they simply don't want to write anything in stone, out of curtisy for IDW, but I still want to know what happened to them. Shouldn't be too hard to write something generic enough.
 
Skytteflickan88 said:
It could be that they simply don't want to write anything in stone, out of curtisy for IDW, but I still want to know what happened to them. Shouldn't be too hard to write something generic enough.
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IDW no longer has the rights to those characters. Buying the rights to them and not using them is less of courtesy and feels more like an insult. Its especially an insult to the fans who followed the adventures of Angel and his crew on his show and in his comics at IDW. Joss wanted these characters, he better freakin' use them.

As evidenced by season 8, Joss is just trying to destroy what makes Angel, well, Angel. I bet it was a surprise for everyone that Angel & Faith actually turned out good.

As for Connor, once they learned that fans weren't going to let them butcher everything Angel without a fight they added a few lines recently about Angel ignoring his calls. Its almost funny.
 
I have more faith in Joss and the others than you do I guess. I think he's simply trying to make Angel interesting. Not saying he's succeding, but A&F is going well so far. Maybe in a few years, I will look back at late season 8 like I did Buffy season 6; painful as hell, but necassary to make the characters move to a new place.

Also, when i was talking about courtesy, I meant that they didn't want to contradict too much of IDW's post ATF stuff, which I respect, but could get very tired off.

Since we've only gotten a few issues, not even two full arcs of A&F, I haven't lost hope yet.
 
Skytteflickan88 said:
I have more faith in Joss and the others than you do I guess. I think he's simply trying to make Angel interesting. Not saying he's succeding, but A&F is going well so far. Maybe in a few years, I will look back at late season 8 like I did Buffy season 6; painful as hell, but necassary to make the characters move to a new place.

Also, when i was talking about courtesy, I meant that they didn't want to contradict too much of IDW's post ATF stuff, which I respect, but could get very tired off.

Since we've only gotten a few issues, not even two full arcs of A&F, I haven't lost hope yet.
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Well if they wanted to respect IDW's work, they wouldn't have had Angel be Twilight in the first place. I don't think many really care about IDW's post-ATF stuff. Aside from a few stories, it wasn't that great.

It isn't that they care about contradicting IDW (because thy don't). They just can't bring Angel's crew into the fold and still have Angel's storylines service Buffy.

I do love Angel & Faith. It is streets ahead of Buffy's title, but it isn't AtS... you know what I mean? Still, I imagine I only like it as much as I do because Joss isn't that involved with it. Thankfully he's been busy with The Avengers and the Buffy book. Here's hoping he spends the next decade on The Avengers sequels instead of finding more ways to mess with Angel.

I don't really have much faith in Joss regarding Angel. Especially due to season 8. That was a giant middle-finger to Angel fans.
 
The Scourge said:
I understand. In fact, this would most likely be a non-issue for me if Joss hadn't disregarded 5 years worth of Angel canon and ditched his supporting characters.
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There's an Joss interview after Twilight leaked covers saying that he always intended to bring Angel back to Buffy-verse and saying that LA time was funky. And then Angel literally saying that LA time was funky (in 8.33 I think). That was a major let down
As for Connor, once they learned that fans weren't going to let them butcher everything Angel without a fight they added a few lines recently about Angel ignoring his calls. Its almost funny.
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I don't know if it is a good thing (listening to fans demands) instead of telling the story.
 
Anca said:
There's an Joss interview after Twilight leaked covers saying that he always intended to bring Angel back to Buffy-verse and saying that LA time was funky. And then Angel literally saying that LA time was funky (in 8.33 I think). That was a major let down

I don't know if it is a good thing (listening to fans demands) instead of telling the story.
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If its a choice between having Angel act out of character and giving in to fan demands to fix the mistake... I'd want them to give into the fan's demands every time.

I have no problem with Joss bringing Angel back to the Buffyverse. My problem is him doing so in a manner that completely destroyed Angel's character and ignored the character's history and years of development.
 
I totally agree with you, Scourge.

Every time I have to read something about these comics I really get mad.

Angel has lost everything: friends, son, love, family... and himself . Under Joss and DH's banner, he's just a failed vampire surrounded by a great amount of resentment and hatred by many readers. In every interview, the writers point out his weakness and failure... I have to say: where's the Angel I've loved and known for five years of the series, and for many years at IDW? And how long a reader can relate to a character like this, former hero and now less than a failure?

I wrote to SA "I'll quit", because they can't regress a character in this huge way. The readers, all those who have loved him for years, can't accept a regression like that.

About Giles: I feel resentment against him since AtS s5, when he decided to deny his help for Fred's life. Plus, I have a lot of questions about the events of Damage. As an AtS fan, I'd have wished Angel confronting him because of those things... but no, BtVS, being Joss' priority, took advantage and now an entire season has built over Giles, his death, his life, his possible resurrection. And Giles was never a part of AtS!

We have to speak about characters who are part of Buffy's world, while there's almost no mention of characters who are part of Angel's. Some of them were on Buffy, but no longer belong to that world, while others are strictly AtS. Never mind. Joss killed most of them (the dearest ones) and has forgotten the others. Important, annoying characters, like Warren and the Master, can be resurrected; others, so important too, have space, like Amy, Clem and Harmony! Die, Cordelia, die Wesley... DH's priority is always BtVS and its characters!

How can I have faith in Joss? Oh, wait...I have no faith in him.
 
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It was my understanding that Joss had said somewhere that he had plans to work the "Angel" characters into A&F eventually, if only as guest stars. Apparently there are still plenty of helpless to help in LA, so having Connor, Gunn, and whoever else (Kate and Nina?) is left there just drop everything and move tp London wouldn't seem to be too practical.

Nothing, however, says that Angel and Faith have to stay in London. Whatever wild goose chase Angel is engaged in trying to resurrect Giles could almost certainly be done in LA as easily as it could in England. Plus, with Angel and Faith back in the U S, crossovers would be much easier.
 
IMHO Joss should consolidate Angel & BtVS into one comic. Essentially a return to the scooby gang in Season 3, that was when the show was at its peak, and that's why I beleive a consolidation would be the best for the Buffyverse.
 
It occurs to me that I'm annoyed by Angel's quest to ressurect Giles, a man he barely had any connection with, when it would be more believeable - not to mention in character - for him to work on bringing back Cordelia or Wesley. Angel cares a hell of a lot more for the than he ever did about Giles.


Sweet J said:
IMHO Joss should consolidate Angel & BtVS into one comic. Essentially a return to the scooby gang in Season 3, that was when the show was at its peak, and that's why I beleive a consolidation would be the best for the Buffyverse.
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No. Angel and it's characters became a lot more awesome after they left Buffy behind. I don't ever want to see Angel and his crew turned into Scoobies playing second fiddle to Buffy.
 
S
strawberryeve
I agree completely!
Q
Quinn
I agree :)
The Scourge said:
No. Angel and it's characters became a lot more awesome after they left Buffy behind. I don't ever want to see Angel and his crew turned into Scoobies playing second fiddle to Buffy.
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I agree with you, Angel did become a lot better, I'd be the first one to argue that Angel Season 2 as a whole, is superior in quality to Buffy Season 5. However that doesn't take away from the fact that a BtVS & Angel comic consolidation (with NO second fiddle included) would be better for the fan base and a return to the Buffyverse's best form. When BtVS was less about Buffy and modelled moreso around the Scoobies as a group in Season 2-3.
 
Sweet J said:
I agree with you, Angel did become a lot better, I'd be the first one to argue that Angel Season 2 as a whole, is superior in quality to Buffy Season 5. However that doesn't take away from the fact that a BtVS & Angel comic consolidation (with NO second fiddle included) would be better for the fan base and a return to the Buffyverse's best form. When BtVS was less about Buffy and modelled moreso around the Scoobies as a group in Season 2-3.
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No second fiddle included? You can't guarantee that. Joss has made it more than clear that he could care less about Angel by how he prioritizes Buffy above all else. The second Buffy ended he changed the entire format of Angel's show to make it more like Buffy and even added Spike and Harmony, not to mention going against Angel's entire character by making him Twilight; thankfully Joss isn't much involved with A&F as he with with Bs9. No, Angel has always been second fiddle; I shudder at the thought of what Joss would do to my beloved characters if he was actually heavily involved with them.

We don't need them combined into one comic. Having two allows them to explore more characters and story. Buffy can't even accommodate the cast it has now, let alone handle adding the Angel crew into the mix. Not to mention the writing on Angel's book is streets ahead of Buffy's. Besides, I don't buy the Buffy comics anymore, I don't want to have to suffer through it just to get a glimpse of Angel.

And Angel and his team are not Scoobies, and wouldn't mesh well with them. Angel was fine around them in Bs2, but he has developed into Alpha Male now and is much more independent. A few crossovers here and there is fine, but having the Fang Gang become Scoobies would basically be a demotion putting themselves under Buffy's thumb. The Fang Gang are more than fine as their own group.
 
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The Scourge wrote:
"And Angel and his team are not Scoobies, and wouldn't mesh well with them. Angel was fine around them in Bs2, but he has developed into Alpha Male now and is much more independent."


Among other (horrible)things, Angel as Twilight in s8, (Meltzer arc), is a huge misinterpretation of his character. Think of that: he has spent months, years to achieve his goal and suddenly, because Buffy thought differently, he changed his mind, said "okay" with a smile and followed her?! Indeed an Alpha Male!

Every time Angel met Buffy, thanks Joss Whedon, he came back at s1-3 of BtVS and reverted to be her boyfriend, weak and in need of guidance.

Joss, stay away from him! And, if you can't, please don't mingle the two comics! And ask David Greenwalt and Tim Minear how to write Angel and his friends! Think that not all of us -viewers and readers- love Buffy more than Angel as you do.
 
To be fair, every Buffy's boyfriend , former or not, turns into a puppy-eyed smitten teenager around her ( the protagonist curse ?) that has no will to resist her, and no other story but to be with/around her. Look at Riley S8-9 , and the guy is actually married. Look at Spike in S9, he is basically in the same position - sans the reciprocity.

I don't think Joss will stay away from Angel now that his title is back under the same roof of DH. Nor do I think Angel will remain in a separate book for long - the numbers do not add , and I cannot see how DH will support two main titles past S9. I sincerely hope the two comics will join into a single story - because ruining Angel's series just to bring forth gloomy, lame-ass A&F is not enough of a pay off for me, and I cannot see them trying to fit a broken egg back into its shell by returning Angel to LA and pretend S8-9 never happened - better make an omelet out of it and run a single story with extended cast. And no, I do not want any of the dead characters from AtS or BtVS back at this point - it will ruin the whole 'no more magic' plot. If we are headed towards the Fray future - lets bite the bullet and go on with less magic more tech universe.
 
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"To be fair, every Buffy's boyfriend , former or not, turns into a puppy-eyed smitten teenager around her ( the protagonist curse ?) that has no will to resist her, and no other story but to be with/around her. Look at Riley S8-9 , and the guy is actually married. Look at Spike in S9, he is basically in the same position - sans the reciprocity. "

Lame, don't you think? Especially if you're a titular character of another series.

"And no, I do not want any of the dead characters from AtS or BtVS back at this point - it will ruin the whole 'no more magic' plot. If we are headed towards the Fray future - lets bite the bullet and go on with less magic more tech universe."

About no more magic plot or Fray future... frankly, I don't mind.

I just want them to fix this horrible mess in a way that can satisfy the Angel fans, too.
 
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