Episode Discussion Let's talk about 'Amends'

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So, I know we've discussed the glaring inconsistency in this episode regarding the First Evil before, but there are many newcomers to the board, and I thought it might be fun t revisit the topic. Everytime I watch this episode it bugs me so much.

The First Evil makes its first appearance in this episode. It attempts to convince Angel to kill himself "“ to what point, I'm unsure. Was it because The First saw Angel as a threat? Did it perhaps know what his destiny prophesied? Is the First perhaps connected with the PTB?

In Season 7, when it reappears in Sunnydale, we learn that it is not corporeal, and cannot touch or affect anything. Yet, it is clearly touching Angel throughout "Amends."

New peeps, what do you all think of this glaring continuity error?

I had forgotten what a stunning episode this really is, despite. It's really the series at its best, IMO.

And of course, the ultimate question: Who made it snow in the end, averting Angel's suicide attempt? God? The PTB? Something else? It's open to interpretation. What do you guys think?

Some questions for discussion:

1. How did Faith find the means to pay for her motel room while being obviously unemployed? Also, Considering Joyce's obvious affection and genuine concern for her, why didn't she offer Faith to option of staying with her and Buffy?

2. What do you make of Angel when he hits Buffy? He should know that wouldn't discourage her. What was the point?

3. What would be gained from Buffy entering into Angel's dream? Was this the work of the First? If so, to what advantage? To disillusion Buffy to him (by seeing him murder his victims), in turn allowing him to commit suicide? In Season 7, we don't see The First entering into people's dreams.

4. What do you make of the sex scene sequence with Angel and Buffy? Do you like it better then the one in "Innocence"? Why or why not? They're both very similar; tasteful, and have a dreamlike quality.

5. Angel says he can smell the sunrise "long before it comes." Is this true in the mythology? Have we never heard of another vampire having this ability?

6. We always see Angel in situations where people are attempting to corrupt him. In this episode, the First attempts to convince him to lose his soul by giving it up with Buffy again. In his own show, we see W&H attempt, by using Darla, to cause Angel to lose his soul yet again. Obviously, others "“ the one's on top "“ think Angel is better off and more useful to them evil, as Angelus. Angel is constantly at war with himself keeping the demon inside him at bay and the simultaneous desire to allow it to emerge. My question is; why to the bad guys so desperately want Angel on their side? (Remember the prophecy; The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in THE apocalypse, on the bad side we now know).

Best lines:

Joye "So, angel's on top again?
Buffy: "What?"

Thoughts?

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

1.You know, I was thinking about how Faith is paying for her hotel room, and in most of the tv shows and movies money is no problem. I mean, they are all talking how they don't have it, but they always have what they want. I guess that is one ideal thing in Buffy Joss put 😀

2.You know, I really don't know how to answer this question. When he punched her in Amends, I didn't had any reaction, but when he punched her in Sanctuary, I was frustrated. I don't know why, maybe because Buffy is strong as him, stronger, I don't make a big deal when he hits her. I just know that hurts her more in the inside then on the outside.

3.I really think that was only for their relathionship. Joss wanted to show us Buffy is going to trust him, love him, care about him, even when she see's with her eyes what kind of animal he was. I think he wanted to show us, that her love for him can't be measured, and that he's going to love him no matter what.

4.About the sex scene, that was for Buffy, not for us, Joss gave them the dream, because in the real life, they can't do that. I don't think it's better then the one in the Innocence. I'm not going to say it wasn't real, it was, because they both felt it, but that one in the Innocence wasn't that sexy, it was beuatiful. I can't compare that.

5. I really don't know. I think they can't. In The Harvest Buffy fooled Luke, and he really thought it's the sunrise, and it was just light.

Really the best quote. I laughed so hard 😀

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

2.You know, I really don't know how to answer this question. When he punched her in Amends, I didn't had any reaction, but when he punched her in Sanctuary, I was frustrated. I don't know why, maybe because Buffy is strong as him, stronger, I don't make a big deal when he hits her. I just know that hurts her more in the inside then on the outside.

I think I agree with you here. Angel hit her because he thought it would make her angry, and then she would allow him to kill himself, as he was attempting to do. That is true though, like she said, she knew all the bad things he did because he did them to her.

 

[Kean]

1. How did Faith find the means to pay for her motel room while being obviously unemployed? Also, Considering Joyce's obvious affection and genuine concern for her, why didn't she offer Faith to option of staying with her and Buffy?

Want. Take. Have.

I'd wager that Consequences wasn't the first time Faith stole and I'd say that is how she lived; petty crime so she could survive. Clearly just enough to get buy, she wasn't living the high life. Not until the Mayor gave it to her.

As for Joyce, well I'd say that if she did consider taking Faith in she would have ran it past Buffy first who I'm sure would have nixed the idea.

2. What do you make of Angel when he hits Buffy? He should know that wouldn't discourage her. What was the point?

Perhaps the point was to show his desperation? or maybe he was trying be the demon that he believed himself to be. The only time (at this point) that Angel had ever hit Buffy was as Angelus. I think perhaps he was trying to show her who he thought he really was: a monster. He couldn't push her away with his words so he tried force. Both failed.

3. What would be gained from Buffy entering into Angel's dream? Was this the work of the First? If so, to what advantage? To disillusion Buffy to him (by seeing him murder his victims), in turn allowing him to commit suicide? In Season 7, we don't see The First entering into people's dreams.

I think it was the First's doing. The dreams were to show Buffy what Angel was and I suppose convince her that that was who he is. However, it just cemented for Buffy how different Angel and Angelus are, in her eyes at least. I think the sex scene was to show her how easy it would be for Angelus to be unleashed again, how he is just underneath the surface of Angel. I think it was to show her how dangerous Angel and she together potentially were.

I also think she chose to ignore that simply because the dreams originated from the First. Like it was lying somehow. We see the warning issued again several times throughout the rest of the season.

4. What do you make of the sex scene sequence with Angel and Buffy? Do you like it better then the one in "Innocence"? Why or why not? They're both very similar; tasteful, and have a dreamlike quality.

Personally, I like this one better, apart from the ending of course 😉 I don't really know why I prefer this one, both are beautifully shot.

6. We always see Angel in situations where people are attempting to corrupt him. In this episode, the First attempts to convince him to lose his soul by giving it up with Buffy again. In his own show, we see W&H attempt, by using Darla, to cause Angel to lose his soul yet again. Obviously, others "“ the one's on top "“ think Angel is better off and more useful to them evil, as Angelus. Angel is constantly at war with himself keeping the demon inside him at bay and the simultaneous desire to allow it to emerge. My question is; why to the bad guys so desperately want Angel on their side? (Remember the prophecy; The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in THE apocalypse, on the bad side we now know).

I think the big bads want Angelus rather than Angel on side because perhaps they think the evil side of Angel would be more willing to go "into business", so to speak, with them. I personally think they are very wrong about that.

I think they want him on their team because they don't know what role he is going to play. If he is going to be to their gains well then all the better to have him in their back pocket but if it turns out that he is supposed to mess their plans up well then if he was on their team it will be a hell of alot easier to off him than if he wasn't. Keep your friends close and your enemies closer kind of deal. Because the prophecy is still so unclear they have to cover every base.


As for the snow? well I like to think it was the PTB. Joss says he wrote the snow in to represent hope. I like the ambiguity that represents. I think it was exactly what Angel needed at that moment. To know that he was a thing worth saving.

This was the exact moment that Angel got back on the road to being a Champion. This was when he became a warrior in his own right. A warrior separate to Buffy and her cause. That is mostly why I think it was the PTB. They needed him to get to L.A. and meet Doyle and the snow kept everything in motion.

 

[white avenger]

The First Evil makes its first appearance in this episode. It attempts to convince Angel to kill himself "“ to what point, I'm unsure. Was it because The First saw Angel as a threat? Did it perhaps know what his destiny prophesied? Is the First perhaps connected with the PTB?

The First Evil apparently knew that its plans for world domination would eventually be thwarted due to the combined efforts of a Slayer and a vampire with a soul. It didn't, at that time, have a large enough force of minions to attempt something like eliminating the entire Slayer line, so, instead, it set its sights on the only en-souled vampire in the world, hoping to thwart the prophecy in that way. Once it failed in that attempt, the First Evil realized that it was going to have to wage a much larger scale war, so it began to recruit its army of minions and a man evil enough to lead that army.

Unfortunately, there was no way of telling at that point that the vampire with a soul who would help the Slayer in bringing about its defeat wasn't Angel at all, but Spike. Once it realized its mistake, it was too late to attempt anything more than a disparate and poorly thought out plan to trick Buffy or her supporters into trying to kill Spike, or Spike into killing Buffy.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Kean pretty much summed up all my thoughts on this episode. "Amends", in my opinion, is one of the best episodes in the series. It's so beautiful and touching, and even with that ugly-ass hair, Buffy is so heartbreakingly beautiful as she pleads with Angel on that cliff. Awwww....

 

[Eleftheria]

I always like talking about this episode! 🙂

these are some very interesting questions

1. Well I always wondered how Faith found the money.Maybe it was Giles who as a Watcher is supposed to take care of the Slayer right?

or maybe Kean is right and since Faith had no money she decided to steal it. In Five by Five she seems pretty comfortable with that action.

2.Angel is desperate. He feels like a monster and maybe he starts to believe that he is one. So he decides to push away Buffy, to make her believe that since he can not lose his soul in her because neither wants that, he would rather die.

This final scene is very powerful and although he punches her and she falls to the ground and then she punches him back I do not feel uncomfortable because there is supposed to be real tension and despair here. But in Sanctuary I feel really bad. She punches him, she is using her Slayer power because she felt jealous and then he punches back. And she has that shocked face. I really feel annoyed in that scene. So sad.

3. Princess B and Kean express wonderful opinions here. But I always wanted to think that their minds were in such perfect co ordination that they shared the same dream. And they saw what they wanted most. To be one, with such gentleness and love.

I am a real romantic guys...the truth is that was the work of the First.🙂 To show Buffy what Angel used to be and what could happen if they slept together again.


4.The Innocence was soooo romantic, so gentle and really wonderful. Angel always treats Buffy with such a kindness like she is fragile. The Amends scene is definitely more sexy 🙂 but still gentle and beautiful. I like the touch of their hands in the beginning of the dream when she wakes up to see Angel in her room.I like everything actually! 🙂 I like both scenes.

5.When Angel said that about sunrise, i thought all vampires could do that. I am not so sure. Maybe Angel has some kind of special ability. He is special as we know!!! 🙂

6.I personally think that maybe the evil guys want Angel in their team because deep down they may know that as a good guy he could destroy them. Angelus is sinister, cunning and evil...but Angel and Angelus share the same mind.


The quote "so Angel's on top again?" was hilarious!!! I laughed my ass off. Poor Buffy. The look on her face. hahahahaha!!!

 

[Kana]

The First Evil makes its first appearance in this episode. It attempts to convince Angel to kill himself "“ to what point, I'm unsure. Was it because The First saw Angel as a threat? Did it perhaps know what his destiny prophesied? Is the First perhaps connected with the PTB?

I always thought the First saw Angel as a threat. They'd rather see him dead or evil than possibly being a champion.

In Season 7, when it reappears in Sunnydale, we learn that it is not corporeal, and cannot touch or affect anything. Yet, it is clearly touching Angel throughout "Amends."

New peeps, what do you all think of this glaring continuity error?

No explanation, just a little bit of wrongness finding its way into the Verse. Let us pretend it didn't happen.

I had forgotten what a stunning episode this really is, despite. It's really the series at its best, IMO.

I liked it, but then Season 3 does generally smash it.

And of course, the ultimate question: Who made it snow in the end, averting Angel's suicide attempt? God? The PTB? Something else? It's open to interpretation. What do you guys think?

Well Joss said it was hope. I believe the possible candidates include The PTBs or Jasmine.

Some questions for discussion:

1. How did Faith find the means to pay for her motel room while being obviously unemployed? Also, Considering Joyce's obvious affection and genuine concern for her, why didn't she offer Faith to option of staying with her and Buffy?


As it's been said, a girl of Faith's talents wouldn't have much trouble and as for Joyce, I think it makes sense she'd be concerned without actually extending the invitation for a long term stay. It seems pretty realistic.


2. What do you make of Angel when he hits Buffy? He should know that wouldn't discourage her. What was the point?

Yeah I agree with most that Angel was demonstrating he's not the Prince Buffy may have thought he was.

3. What would be gained from Buffy entering into Angel's dream? Was this the work of the First? If so, to what advantage? To disillusion Buffy to him (by seeing him murder his victims), in turn allowing him to commit suicide? In Season 7, we don't see The First entering into people's dreams.

Well Buffy thought that Angel might be slipping. If they could convince her he was a threat and tempt Angel, they were hoping either one or both of them will end up dead.

4. What do you make of the sex scene sequence with Angel and Buffy? Do you like it better then the one in "Innocence"? Why or why not? They're both very similar; tasteful, and have a dreamlike quality.

I love Amends love scene. After everything that happened it has that emotional resonance.

5. Angel says he can smell the sunrise "long before it comes." Is this true in the mythology? Have we never heard of another vampire having this ability?

No idea. Angel was the only person who has demonstrated this, but from a survival instinct it makes sense. It would seem however when a vampire is sleeping or drunk (e.g. Spike) they may be caught off guard.

6. We always see Angel in situations where people are empting to corrupt him. In this episode, the First attempts to convince him to lose his soul by giving it up with Buffy again. In his own show, we see W&H attempt, by using Darla, to cause Angel to lose his soul yet again. Obviously, others "“ the one's on top "“ think Angel is better off and more useful to them evil, as Angelus. Angel is constantly at war with himself keeping the demon inside him at bay and the simultaneous desire to allow it to emerge. My question is; why to the bad guys so desperately want Angel on their side? (Remember the prophecy; The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in THE apocalypse, on the bad side we now know).

My feeling is that it's different for different reasons. Whilst I like the idea of the FE bringing Angel back, I believe that another force, most likely the PTBs or Jasmine were actually responsible. The FE most likely got nervous because by him being brought back they realised he's important somehow, so they'd rather have him dead or dark. Or maybe it was a round about way of destroying Buffy in the worst way possible. Certainly getting rid of two potential champion isn't bad for an evil night's work.

W&H most likely were about soulled Angel being on their side. The whole Darla thing was never about him losing his soul. Holland never expected her to give him a moment of true happiness. It about darkness and obsession. Darla was able to awaken the darker urges in him. It was about DarkAngel not Angelus.

And the Joyce line? Perfection :lmao:

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Thanks for the great answers, guys!

 

[Tome]

1. How did Faith find the means to pay for her motel room while being obviously unemployed? Also, Considering Joyce's obvious affection and genuine concern for her, why didn't she offer Faith to option of staying with her and Buffy?

I just thought that Faith either had money from before(her Watcher, Family or a previous job) or she had a job but the show just didn't mention it.

2. What do you make of Angel when he hits Buffy? He should know that wouldn't discourage her. What was the point?

He was about to kill himself... So i'm guessing he was really agitated and confused, hence his reaction when Buffy tried to touch him(and I think she hit him?).

3. What would be gained from Buffy entering into Angel's dream? Was this the work of the First? If so, to what advantage? To disillusion Buffy to him (by seeing him murder his victims), in turn allowing him to commit suicide? In Season 7, we don't see The First entering into people's dreams.

I didn't think it was the First. I just thought there was something between Buffy and Angel that made it happen(it's fiction after all!). And I just guessed that Buffy being close to Angel was feeling his pain through the dreams.

4. What do you make of the sex scene sequence with Angel and Buffy? Do you like it better then the one in "Innocence"? Why or why not? They're both very similar; tasteful, and have a dreamlike quality.

I felt they were pretty much the same. But this one was a dream. Probably linked to the First who was trying to get Angel to actually do it for 'real'.

5. Angel says he can smell the sunrise "long before it comes." Is this true in the mythology? Have we never heard of another vampire having this ability?

There's a lot of these things that comes out sometimes through the series about vampires that are confusing since it's never mentioned again. At the time I just thought it was linked to him being a vampire.

6. We always see Angel in situations where people are attempting to corrupt him. In this episode, the First attempts to convince him to lose his soul by giving it up with Buffy again. In his own show, we see W&H attempt, by using Darla, to cause Angel to lose his soul yet again. Obviously, others "“ the one's on top "“ think Angel is better off and more useful to them evil, as Angelus. Angel is constantly at war with himself keeping the demon inside him at bay and the simultaneous desire to allow it to emerge. My question is; why to the bad guys so desperately want Angel on their side? (Remember the prophecy; The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in THE apocalypse, on the bad side we now know).

Clearly they want him on their side because he has a part in him that they can use for their own gains. He can be very dangerous as we all know, and his link to other important players in the good versus evil battle could prove very useful if he ever turned bad.

 

[JudyLovesBuffy]

I just watched this episode last night and was looking for a thread to post my thoughts in, so thank you Joan for this thread.

I agree with a lot of what was said in here, but I thought I would answer some questions myself. So here goes:

The First Evil makes its first appearance in this episode. It attempts to convince Angel to kill himself "“ to what point, I'm unsure. Was it because The First saw Angel as a threat? Did it perhaps know what his destiny prophesied? Is the First perhaps connected with the PTB?

Yes, I do think The First saw Angel as a threat, but I also think it wanted Angelus back. All through the first three seasons we have been told and shown over and over again just how EVIL Angelus was. He wasn't just a vampire, content with killing for a meal. He wallowed in the evil. He relished every torture he inflicted. He was, without a doubt, the most evil EVIL on this show. Why wouldn't the First want something like that on its side?

In Season 7, when it reappears in Sunnydale, we learn that it is not corporeal, and cannot touch or affect anything. Yet, it is clearly touching Angel throughout "Amends."

New peeps, what do you all think of this glaring continuity error?

I am just going to give Joss a pass on this one. Yep, it lacks continuity, but the episode more than makes up for it IMHO.


I had forgotten what a stunning episode this really is, despite. It's really the series at its best, IMO.

I wholeheartedly agree. This is one of my favorite episodes of the series.

And of course, the ultimate question: Who made it snow in the end, averting Angel's suicide attempt? God? The PTB? Something else? It's open to interpretation. What do you guys think?

Buffy had just finished saying to Angel "if I can't convince you to live, I don't know what can," and BINGO, snow and no sunshine for the whole day. I like to think it was some good, higher power that caused the snow. Call it God, call it a force for right, anything you wish, but something GOOD stopped Angel. Certainly not the First, who would have been happy without Angel in the equation.

Something good wanted Angel to continue on, to continue doing right, to continue making amends and making a difference.

Some questions for discussion:

1. How did Faith find the means to pay for her motel room while being obviously unemployed? Also, Considering Joyce's obvious affection and genuine concern for her, why didn't she offer Faith to option of staying with her and Buffy?

I've wondered that myself. Perhaps a small stipend from the Watcher's Council?

2. What do you make of Angel when he hits Buffy? He should know that wouldn't discourage her. What was the point?

I think that was just a frustrated, desperate act on Angel's part.


3. What would be gained from Buffy entering into Angel's dream? Was this the work of the First? If so, to what advantage? To disillusion Buffy to him (by seeing him murder his victims), in turn allowing him to commit suicide? In Season 7, we don't see The First entering into people's dreams.

I think this was merely to show the connection between Buffy and Angel. Their love for each other. Their connection so strong that she was able to suffer when he was suffering. Their love so strong that they became ONE spiritually and metaphysically.

4. What do you make of the sex scene sequence with Angel and Buffy? Do you like it better then the one in "Innocence"? Why or why not? They're both very similar; tasteful, and have a dreamlike quality.

I loved both of them. They were beautifully and artistically done.

5. Angel says he can smell the sunrise "long before it comes." Is this true in the mythology? Have we never heard of another vampire having this ability?

It makes sense to me. A warning signal perhaps.

6. We always see Angel in situations where people are attempting to corrupt him. In this episode, the First attempts to convince him to lose his soul by giving it up with Buffy again. In his own show, we see W&H attempt, by using Darla, to cause Angel to lose his soul yet again. Obviously, others "“ the one's on top "“ think Angel is better off and more useful to them evil, as Angelus. Angel is constantly at war with himself keeping the demon inside him at bay and the simultaneous desire to allow it to emerge. My question is; why to the bad guys so desperately want Angel on their side? (Remember the prophecy; The vampire with a soul will play a pivotal role in THE apocalypse, on the bad side we now know).

Every hero in every story has a dark side. Something intangible that they have to fight or ward off to stay the hero. This is what I believe makes Angel a hero, his ability to fight that dark side.

As for EVIL wanting Angel on its side, I answered that above. He was gloriously evil as Angelus, so why wouldn't EVIL want him back?


Despite the continuity problems, I love this episode. Buffy admitting that she loves Angel and cannot stop, Willow and Oz finally coming to terms and reuniting, Faith sharing Christmas Eve with Buffy and Joyce, Giles and Angel coming together, and even Xander helping Angel for a change. Joss at his finest IMHO.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Every hero in every story has a dark side. Something intangible that they have to fight or ward off to stay the hero. This is what I believe makes Angel a hero, his ability to fight that dark side.

I'm no longer confident that he has the desire to fight the evil anymore. Perhaps Angel is no longer a hero, taking recent events into consideration.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

I'm no longer confident that he has the desire to fight the evil anymore. Perhaps Angel is no longer a hero, taking recent events into consideration.

The only one of Joss' living pet characters that I could see him turning permanently evil is Willow. There have been allusions to Willow turning dark since their High School days, not to mention more recent events.

Spike, Faith or Angel on the other hand would have to devolve to be evil. With Willow it's just a dark evolution. That said, some of our dead heroes wouldn't shock me coming back as Big Bads, especially if the comics keep coming. A vengeful Anya or twisted Wes wouldn't surprise. A flatly evil Angel would still be a shocker, even in light of recent events.

 

[saturn5]

I think the First 'touches' Angel but exerts no physical pressure. I figure that the Council pay for Faith's digs. I always wondered why Joyce didn't invite Faith to join them but maybe she was working her way up to it with the Christmas invite? Common theme in slashfic that she does prompting Fuffy, Jaith and even Daith (or combinations of all three). And in non-adult fic where if Buffy dies Joyce get's over her grief by adopting Faith and her little sister Dawn

 

[JudyLovesBuffy]

I'm no longer confident that he has the desire to fight the evil anymore. Perhaps Angel is no longer a hero, taking recent events into consideration.

This is where I respectfully disagree. For me, BTVS ended with her smile at the edge of the ravine that was once Sunnydale. The comics are not canon to me. I know JW says they are, and with all due respect to Mr. Whedon, I just choose to disregard them. I read the first comic and it just lost me.

So, for me anyway, Angel is still fighting the good fight. :smile3: