Let's talk about - Bangel

[Xander]

Thinking about it, I feel that the way Buffy/Angel had this perfect romance that fell to pieces and never really picked itself up again is a good message for teens. All too often I've seen my friends find love and become that crazed "He's perfect, wonderful, smart, funny, nice, caring, gentle blah blah blah" which in a way is what Buffy/Angel were like (when he wasn't evil or she didn't hate him). However the relationship broke down, they realised, to quote Hell's Bells, sometimes all two people bring each other is pain.

Anyway, so what I'm trying to say is that the way the B/A relationship played out is a healthy message. Yes, you can fall madly truely deeply in love but more than likely (particularly when your a teen) it won't last forever and that's not a bad thing. True loves like B/A will never stop loving each other, but don't be afraid to move on, keep trying. You can still be friends with ex-lovers.

Its kinda similar to Xander/Willow. I feel they are each other's true loves but due to circumstances (Willow being gay is a fairly big one) they won't ever have that Hollywood romance, they're love is a more truer one based upon friendship. I totally see Xander and Willow still living together when they're older (Willow and Kennedy won't last 😛), but in a healthy way. Kind of like Will & Grace...sorta.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

At least she said it, when did she tell that kind of thing to Spike?. I don't understand how people don't understand that Spike isn't Buffy's true love, which doesn't mean Buffy isn't his true love. I believe Spike loves Buffy with all her heart and it's sad, but it's obvious that she doesn't feel the same...not towards him anyway...
.

Well, Mike... here's a list brought to you by Spuffy shippers everywhere:

Yes, I agree that she never said the words: "Always" to Spike in response to her being his girl. But there are plenty of other opportunities that show a greater depth of love.

1. She allowed Spike to take care of Dawn. Buffy spent much of her time stressing out about Dawn and making sure she was safe.
2. SEASON SEVEN! Did you watch it? That is the ultimate Buffy/Spike season. The important parts are listed below:
3. Beneath You: Buffy finds out Spike got his sould for her, and so begins the new horizon of their relationship.
4. Buffy takes care of Spike when his chip is not working while under the control of the first.
5. Buffy makes the decision to have the chip remobed becacuse she trusts Spike.
6. Buffy cares about the scratches on Spike's chest when he tried to cut his heart out, and when she accidently hurts him during training the potentials.
7. She defends him against Giles. Buffy tells Giles that he is good, that he has a soul
8. She threatens Wood that she'll let Spike kill him, because of his vendetta against Spike.
9. She blows of Angel in the cemetary
10. She asks Spike to stay with her and they have a passionate night of holding each other.
11. Buffy gives the amulet to Spike, after Angel says it must be worn by a champion. So, basically Buffy believes Spike to be a champion.
12. Buffy has a hard time leaving Spike in the Hellmouth. She does not want to leave him.
13. She tells Spike that she loves him.
14. Buffy's last words in the Buffyverse that we will ever hear is "Spike"

I know that it is off topic, but I just wanted to stand up for my fellow Spuffy shippers and point out these times to those who might not understand them.

Mike: I value your opinion about Bangel, but you know that we are all pigheaded and want everyone to like our opinions as well. 🙂

 

[Cookie Dough]

1. She allowed Spike to take care of Dawn. Buffy spent much of her time stressing out about Dawn and making sure she was safe.
2. SEASON SEVEN! Did you watch it? That is the ultimate Buffy/Spike season. The important parts are listed below:
3. Beneath You: Buffy finds out Spike got his sould for her, and so begins the new horizon of their relationship.
4. Buffy takes care of Spike when his chip is not working while under the control of the first.
5. Buffy makes the decision to have the chip remobed becacuse she trusts Spike.
6. Buffy cares about the scratches on Spike's chest when he tried to cut his heart out, and when she accidently hurts him during training the potentials.
7. She defends him against Giles. Buffy tells Giles that he is good, that he has a soul
8. She threatens Wood that she'll let Spike kill him, because of his vendetta against Spike.

What these things show is the beginning of trust and friendship, nothing about being in love.

9. She blows of Angel in the cemetary

Phrased like a true spuffy. No bias there. It's called seasons 1-7 of Buffy and 1-5 of Angel. Did you watch it? Angel had a curse. Hence the not being together of Buffy and Angel. Why would they suddenly get back together when he still has the curse? Plus it's not exactly being blown off when they kiss and have a conversation where she says she doesn't see a future with Spike.

10. She asks Spike to stay with her and they have a passionate night of holding each other.

There was nothing passionate about that night.

11. Buffy gives the amulet to Spike, after Angel says it must be worn by a champion. So, basically Buffy believes Spike to be a champion.
12. Buffy has a hard time leaving Spike in the Hellmouth. She does not want to leave him.

Yep. It's called friendship.

13. She tells Spike that she loves him.

And when he tells her he knows she doesn't, she's silent.

14. Buffy's last words in the Buffyverse that we will ever hear is "Spike"

That doesn't mean she's in love with him. She was only answering Giles' question.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

What these things show is the beginning of trust and friendship, nothing about being in love.

Actually, they show the beginning of a relationship. Beyond friendship.

Phrased like a true spuffy. No bias there. It's called seasons 1-7 of Buffy and 1-5 of Angel. Did you watch it? Angel had a curse. Hence the not being together of Buffy and Angel. Why would they suddenly get back together when he still has the curse? Plus it's not exactly being blown off when they kiss and have a conversation where she says she doesn't see a future with Spike.

Consider that they kissed. Did not you not start screaming.... "THEY"RE GETTING BACK TOGETHER. YES!" Because of that kiss, and because of the past, many people thought that they were getting back together. But, they didn't. Why? Because they both moved on. Buffy loved Riley and Spike, and Angel loved Cordelia.

And the being blown off part is that they were arguing about who was to wear the amulet. Who should fight at her side. And she kicked Angel out of her town and gave the amulet to Spike.

There was nothing passionate about that night.

Did you even watch the episode. Their relationship pretty much went beyond passion. Yeah, most relationships have the sexual undertones, and they certainly had that, but one night where they did not need to be initiating in sex to feel close to each other. That right there, is a true relationship. When you acknowledge that while a healthy relationship needs the physical aspect, but spending time together just holding each other is another key ingredient. You cannot reach that until you pass that physical barrier.

Also... did you have the mute on when you watched this episode? Did you hear Spike's speech?

Yep. It's called friendship



And when he tells her he knows she doesn't, she's silent.

She doesn't get a chance to say anything. There is a pause, and then the Hellmouth continues closing in around her... and she realizes that to save her life, and leaves.

That doesn't mean she's in love with him. She was only answering Giles' question.

And I was only stating those reasons because I wanted to point out our views. I even stated that in my previous posts. And then I get attacked, so I'm attacking back. This could be dissected six ways from Friday... and I know it will be.

See, JollyApe. Told you. WW3. 🙂

 

[Slaying_Spuffy]

Bangel is my number one ship because I personally believe it was a true love. I'm not a big believer in ment to be, though. I really dislike spuffy and cangel, just because Spuffy was more based on sex (only in the early seasons, though) and season 7 just made me mad because it was a bangel-wannabe kinda relationship.
Cangel... Hmm. I don't know why I don't like Cangel, I've always liked Cander (ship name?) and plus Angel and Cordy? I think that's an odd couple.

 

[LadyLavinia]

At least she said it, when did she tell that kind of thing to Spike?. I don't understand how people don't understand that Spike isn't Buffy's true love, which doesn't mean Buffy isn't his true love. I believe Spike loves Buffy with all her heart and it's sad, but it's obvious that she doesn't feel the same...not towards him anyway.
And concerning the age,...hey, was Juliet 30?: No. Did she love Romeo?: Yes.

Why is it important that either Angel or Spike have to be a "true love"? Sounds like something out of a romance novel or a fairy tale. Perhaps that is why Bangel never really appealed to me. It seemed to much of a fairy tale or an idealized romance for my tastes. I guess I'm too old to enjoy such romances in fiction. There seemed to be an unreal quality about it. The type of romance for those suffering from arrested development . . . if you know what I mean.


It's interesting that many people are so determined that Buffy either loves one vampire or the other. She didn't end up with either one. And she was probably better off on her own. And from what I've seen, I suspect that Whedon allowed the issue of who was Buffy's "true love" remain ambiguous.

 

[*Maria*]

Wow I missed a lot of good Bangel Talking but here's my input.
Yes I like Bangel minly by being here at BB. But I got to go with a lot of what Tainted Hope said. That it wa more a puppy love. I really loved them together but we all knew thay would never get together. As in mature too there relationship was really not in a mature since anything. Also alot of what SpikedBuffy said is what I was thinking just in a whole bunch of better words. But Bangel was need And I love it It was more that relationship you grow from the one that you will never forget. But you don't really want to start over again. Yo u just move on and know more about yourself and what you need in a relationship...

 

[Cookie Dough]

I don't know about everyone else but when I say "true love" I only mean who she loves most. I think that is Angel.

 

[Anchovy]

IN that case, CookieDough, maybe Dawn is her true love. I think that by the time she gets to Season 5, she really loves her family (which includes WIllow and Xander and Giles) way more than she's ever loved a lover. Think about it: No greater love than this...

But I'll agree that Buffy will never love anyone with the same abandon that she loved Angel. Mostly because she did, and he left. And maybe that's healthy. After all, now that she has a future, and she can think about herself a little, she will no longer look into her future and see nothing but some guy. I don't think it's healthy for any woman to do that. Maybe now Buffy will be able to have a love that is a PART of her life, but not her WHOLE life.

 

[Cookie Dough]

Anchovy, obviously you don't understand what I said. I meant romantically.

 

[SpikedBuffy]

Anchovy: Funny! She loved Dawn. So, taking that theory, I would say that Joyce was her true love until she died. hehe

I've been coming back to the issue about Buffy not ever expressing her feelings in words, as she did to Angel.

Because I'm feeling really argumentative, here goes.

So, Buffy has told Angel that she will always be her girl, and that she loves him. So, some previous statements would show that because she said that (because she didn't say it to Spike) means that Angel is her true love.

Well, think about all the times that Buffy has said "I Love You" to others. Her mother, Dawn, Willow.... So, taking the theory, that would mean that everyone in Buffy's life is her true love.

Wow. She's like the town bicycle. 🙂

Told you I was feeling argumentative.

This is fun. Those of you who can take a joke and laugh, I'm sure that you won't get cranky. I'm pretty sure Anchovy will agree with me.

 

[LadyLavinia]

I don't know about everyone else but when I say "true love" I only mean who she loves most. I think that is Angel.

After seeing "Chosen", I wouldn't be too sure about that. The only person we know that she loves absolutely is Dawn.

But I'll agree that Buffy will never love anyone with the same abandon that she loved Angel. Mostly because she did, and he left.

She had loved Angel that way, because she was young and immature. That's why Spike loved Drusilla in the same manner . . . and Buffy, when he first realized that he was in love with her. Because he was still immature.

 

[Cookie Dough]

After seeing "Chosen", I wouldn't be too sure about that. The only person we know that she loves absolutely is Dawn.

Whoa you think she is in love with Dawn? Because I pretty much cleared up in the next post that I meant romantically.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Whoa you think she is in love with Dawn? Because I pretty much cleared up in the next post that I meant romantically.

Whether I'm talking of romance or not, Dawn is the only person still alive that Buffy would ever love so deeply. Not Angel, Spike, the Scoobies or any other person.

And the only reason Buffy had behaved that way toward Angel, was because she was projecting "young love". If Buffy had met Angel when she was a little older, I doubt very much that she would have loved him in the same manner. Angel was nothing more than a symbol of her childhood - something that she's afraid of letting go. And "Chosen" told me, without a doubt, that she was beginning to move on from her "childhood".

 

[DáNió]

She doesn't get a chance to say anything. There is a pause, and then the Hellmouth continues closing in around her... and she realizes that to save her life, and leaves.

If my boyfriend was going to die and I loved him, and he turned around and said I didn't i'd sure as hell would be arguing back to him that I did, I mean a simple 'I do' dosen't take that long to say. Buffy loved Spike, she just wasn't IN love with him.

 

[Anchovy]

Anchovy, obviously you don't understand what I said. I meant romantically

No CookieDough, I understood what you meant. I was using what you said to make a point about love. How there is love in the Buffyverse that is possibly deeper and definitely more important to the characters than romantic love.

Oh, and LadyL, I wanted to give you rep so bad, cause you said what I was trying to say, but couldn't get it out! But it won't let me! Grrr.

 

[Cookie Dough]

No CookieDough, I understood what you meant. I was using what you said to make a point about love. How there is love in the Buffyverse that is possibly deeper and definitely more important to the characters than romantic love..

Yes but here in the "Let's talk about Bangel" thread I was talking about Angel and Buffy's romantic love.

 

[Anchovy]

Yes but here in the "Let's talk about Bangel" thread I was talking about Angel and Buffy's romantic love.

Uh-huh and I got back on topic in the next sentance. Let's do the same....

Basically, I think that yes, Buffy and Angel had an all-consuming, "gothic" forbidden kind of love that both characters will carry with them forever. But now, as Buffy is growing up, she's grown out of needing or even wanting that kind of relationship, as she says to Spike in "Seeing Red". And that's a good thing! Buffy is learning that she needs to love herself before she's comfortable letting someone else love her. And that's what she's "baking". Buffy-who-loves-herself-cookies. And maybe when she's done, she'll be ok with Angel or Spike or Xander (yesyesyes, please!!!) or Joe the Guy Down The Street loving her too. But I don't see that there's any more evidence for that guy being Angel than any other guy. In fact, I think there's less chance, because of their history, with the killing, and the torturing her father figure, and the vindictiveness, and the BAD. I make the same argument with my own "Spuffy-love". There's so much history with both of them, that it may just be too hard to be around them.

 

[Pythagore]

If Buffy had met Angel when she was a little older, I doubt very much that she would have loved him in the same manner. Angel was nothing more than a symbol of her childhood - something that she's afraid of letting go. And "Chosen" told me, without a doubt, that she was beginning to move on from her "childhood".

So, then, what is Angel's excuse? Swept up with that "gothic love" that Anchovy mentioned? Or did he, being so much older that Buffy, feel REAL love while she was just having a youthful romance?

What a horrible thought. For Angel's sake, that is.

 

[Cookie Dough]

Consider that they kissed. Did not you not start screaming.... "THEY"RE GETTING BACK TOGETHER. YES!" Because of that kiss, and because of the past, many people thought that they were getting back together. But, they didn't. Why? Because they both moved on. Buffy loved Riley and Spike, and Angel loved Cordelia.

No I didn't think they were getting together. I knew Angel still had the curse and wouldn't think it was fair to Buffy.

And the being blown off part is that they were arguing about who was to wear the amulet. Who should fight at her side. And she kicked Angel out of her town and gave the amulet to Spike.

Because she knew Spike loved her and she cared about him enough to know Angel being in town would hurt him.

Did you even watch the episode. Their relationship pretty much went beyond passion. Yeah, most relationships have the sexual undertones, and they certainly had that, but one night where they did not need to be initiating in sex to feel close to each other. That right there, is a true relationship. When you acknowledge that while a healthy relationship needs the physical aspect, but spending time together just holding each other is another key ingredient. You cannot reach that until you pass that physical barrier. Also... did you have the mute on when you watched this episode? Did you hear Spike's speech?

Yeah, it's not a question of whether or not Spike was in love with Buffy. Buffy however was not in love with him.

She doesn't get a chance to say anything. There is a pause, and then the Hellmouth continues closing in around her... and she realizes that to save her life, and leaves.

"I do" doesn't take that long to say and she said it to Angel earlier in the episode.