Let's talk about - Bangel

[Feigenbaum]

Wow, that's some heated argument going on.

Hopefully everyone can resolve their issues and realize that we all probably watch Buffy for one reason... because we love the show! Our opinions about ships and what not should not get in the way. We all need to be focusing on banding together and keeping our show alive!

Now, I've never really gravitated towards one ship or the other. I've always been kind of just floating along and finding good points and bad points in all the relationships on Buffy.

Buffy/Angel had some great moments. I think that the actors playing the parts really put a lot of heart and soul into the relationship on screen and that really made an impact. They had a great love, and it was sad that they had to move on. But you never know what is going happen in the future.

Buffy/Spike has some great moments as well. I think that season seven was beginning to show the blossoming of something, and if we would have had season eight of Buffy, we might have seen more. But that relationship also had some problems. As Buffy said in either Entropy or Seeing Red in response to SPike's comment about great love being fire and consuming people whole... "Till there's nothing left". I'm not sure that after all they had been through if there would have been anything left for them.

So, that's just my opinion. I hope that everyone can just appreciate new viewpoints and just consider them. That's all you have to do.

 

[JollyApe]

Wow lot's of good arguments wven though I don't really agree with all of them. I'd just like to name an episode and prove my first point with the different sides of their love. The Prom, great example of that they are so different and that their love is different.

 

[Feigenbaum]

I agree JollyApe.

Now that you have said that about "The Prom" I started thinking more about it. First, you've got Angel dreaming about their marriage, which was a surprise. Then Angel decides to leave her, and not go to prom, but then he shows up, because he knew it would be important to her, just to have one dance. For Buffy to feel like a normal teenage girl.

This is an amazing point. You've got all the drama of a couple breaking up because of interesting circumstances, but then you've got how they deal with the situation. Angel actually coming to the prom and dancing with Buffy really shows that he was willing to help her out still, even though he was planning on leaving. Maybe there is much more beneath the surface that I haven't though about yet.

Nice comment, JollyApe.

 

[Rory]

I'm a true Bangel fan and I think that Buffys true love really was Angel. Eventhough he went away to LA she still loved him and he was an important part of her life. She kept loving him when she was with Riley and Spike.
Some people seems to think that Buffy is to young to really understand what true love is and what words like "forever" means but I think that she is much more mature than her age. I mean, she has lost so many people and she has been forced to make so many hard descions in life. She knows what she's talking about. 🙂

 

[Destructo Girl]

Okay, we all need to stop throwing the love options everywhere! Buffy didn't love Angel, Spike, or Riley. She obviously loved Eddie! Oh my god people, can't you see?! Remember him? "The Freshman" Love at first sight I tell ya...😉

In all seriousness, this coming out of my mouth is hard because I'm a die hard Spuffy shipper, but Buffy did love Angel a whole bunch. But I don't think she kept him in her heart until season seven. I think Buffy moved on to more mature relationships (or she at least tried). She tried to have Parker, and then she did have Riley, and then Spike. I think she truly loved all these people, but in there own way.
Bangel seems to be the star-crossed soulmates high-school love. It may have been cute and sweet. But they weren't in it for the long haul. She loved him when she had him, loved him after he left, but only for a couple of months. Then she moved on to Parker and Riley. she still had Angel in her heart, but not as a lover, not anymore.

That's my two cents, analyze it, destruct it, criticize it, but that's how I feel!

 

[Cookie Dough]

Buffy had closed herself off from love with Riley without realizing it until the ultimatum and then Xander pointed it out. There was a part of her that still belonged to Angel, which was shown in all of Buffy's relationships after Angel and that is why Spike knew that Buffy didn't love him, or atleast not in the "you're the one" way since she kisses Angel, in season 7 btw, even after their night together in Touched. This opinion makes sense because it goes along with the theme that all relationships are doomed, which was the only sure thing in both series.
Buffy, the girl who is loved truely by so many men, the girl who as the option of moving on thanks to Angel's sacrifice, doesn't. Because she is still in love with the one person she can never have.
While Angel, the one person in the series who can't move on, whose relationships will never work, falls in love again with Cordelia.

 

[LadyLavinia]

Sorry, but this is my take on the kiss from "End of Days"/"Chosen":

(from Shadowkat on the ATPOBTVS forum) -

Why all the uncertainity? That damn kiss. Which was necessary for Spike's journey. Actually I think that kiss was only there for Spike's benefit. It really didn't advance Buffy or Angel much at all characterwise. We didn't need the kiss for the cookie dough speech or for Buffy's decision to give Spike the amulet. We needed the kiss to convince Spike, she would only love Angel. We saw it through Spike's pov not Buffy's and not Angel's - note how it's filmed and this whole season has been about one's perspective or pov after all. We don't learn what Angel and Buffy think about the kiss until long after Spike leaves. Then the pov shifts and we realize it was nostalgia. Buffy loves Angel but is no longer "in love" with anyone. Angel likewise is not able to be "in love" with anyone after Cordy and Connor. But they do geniunely care and love each other and they were deeply in love once. She says this in her cookie dough speech, letting him know that while she loves Spike, she isn't in love with him or anyone, that she doesn't know who she is yet and until she does she can't really be "in love", she needs in essence to find a way back to loving herself. The cookie dough speech was yet another rendition of "you have to love and know yourself before you can decide to love anyone else." Angel gets this and goes.

Did the audience get this? Not completely. The audience is split amongst people convinced Buffy loves Angel and Buffy loves Spike, there's a few of us who realize she isn't "in love" with anyone right now, the poor girl just came out of a depression, give her a break.

 

[Cookie Dough]

Why all the uncertainity? That damn kiss. Which was necessary for Spike's journey. Actually I think that kiss was only there for Spike's benefit.

This part isn't true because we heard from Joss on the DVD why the kiss was there. It was to give hope for Buffy/Angel's relationship. It confirmed that they still are in love. That's really all it was.

"It really didn't advance Buffy or Angel much at all characterwise. We didn't need the kiss for the cookie dough speech or for Buffy's decision to give Spike the amulet."

This kiss wasn't needed to show that B/A are doomed. We already know that but Joss included the kiss anyway and that speaks oodles. It showed that after all these years Buffy is still in love with Angel. She initiated it and when he went to leave she mentioned their future together. That says alot to how much she loves him because, even though they know they can never have a normal relationship, she says she still imagines a future with him.

"We needed the kiss to convince Spike, she would only love Angel. We saw it through Spike's pov not Buffy's and not Angel's"
We saw it through Buffy, Angel, and Spike's perspective. It showed Spike that he needed to be content with loving Buffy and her believing in him without going further. It taught him to be selfless and to save the world later in the episode.

"We don't learn what Angel and Buffy think about the kiss until long after Spike leaves. Then the pov shifts and we realize it was nostalgia. Buffy loves Angel but is no longer "in love" with anyone. Angel likewise is not able to be "in love" with anyone after Cordy and Connor. But they do geniunely care and love each other and they were deeply in love once."

The "no longer in love" part is pure opinion. Nothing canon really says that. But in my experience, I don't go around kissing my ex's if I don't want to be with them.

"She says this in her cookie dough speech, letting him know that while she loves Spike, she isn't in love with him or anyone, that she doesn't know who she is yet and until she does she can't really be "in love", she needs in essence to find a way back to loving herself."

She talked about being in a relationship, not about being in love. She said she didn't know why her relationships never worked out.

 

[LadyLavinia]

This part isn't true because we heard from Joss on the DVD why the kiss was there. It was to give hope for Buffy/Angel's relationship. It confirmed that they still are in love. That's really all it was.

"It really didn't advance Buffy or Angel much at all characterwise. We didn't need the kiss for the cookie dough speech or for Buffy's decision to give Spike the amulet."

This kiss wasn't needed to show that B/A are doomed. We already know that but Joss included the kiss anyway and that speaks oodles. It showed that after all these years Buffy is still in love with Angel. She initiated it and when he went to leave she mentioned their future together. That says alot to how much she loves him because, even though they know they can never have a normal relationship, she says she still imagines a future with him.

"We needed the kiss to convince Spike, she would only love Angel. We saw it through Spike's pov not Buffy's and not Angel's"
We saw it through Buffy, Angel, and Spike's perspective. It showed Spike that he needed to be content with loving Buffy and her believing in him without going further. It taught him to be selfless and to save the world later in the episode.

"We don't learn what Angel and Buffy think about the kiss until long after Spike leaves. Then the pov shifts and we realize it was nostalgia. Buffy loves Angel but is no longer "in love" with anyone. Angel likewise is not able to be "in love" with anyone after Cordy and Connor. But they do geniunely care and love each other and they were deeply in love once."

The "no longer in love" part is pure opinion. Nothing canon really says that. But in my experience, I don't go around kissing my ex's if I don't want to be with them.

"She says this in her cookie dough speech, letting him know that while she loves Spike, she isn't in love with him or anyone, that she doesn't know who she is yet and until she does she can't really be "in love", she needs in essence to find a way back to loving herself."

She talked about being in a relationship, not about being in love. She said she didn't know why her relationships never worked out.

I've heard from other articles given by Joss Whedon that Buffy either loved Spike or was not in love with either vampire. Every time someone hints that Whedon was being deliberately vague about who Buffy would end up with, or whom she loved more, someone else disagrees and go into another Buffy/Angel 4evah or Buffy/Spike 4evah speech. Hey, I'm a Buffy/Spike fan, but I certainly don't buy the arguments of other Spuffies that by the end of Season 7, Buffy loved ONLY Spike. Nor do I believe that she loved ONLY Angel. I don't think she was in love with either vampire, by then. But I think that she loved them both. That was the message I got from not only the "cookie dough" speech, but from what Andrew had told both Angel and Spike in AtS's "The Girl in Question". Now, certain people don't have to believe this . . . but could they at least consider that this argument has merit?

 

[Cookie Dough]

I've heard from other articles given by Joss Whedon that Buffy either loved Spike or was not in love with either vampire.

I would like to see if this is true, because I haven't seen it anywhere.

from what Andrew had told both Angel and Spike in AtS's "The Girl in Question". Now, certain people don't have to believe this . . . but could they at least consider that this argument has merit?

Hardly, because it comes from Andrew and everyone knows he's the storyteller, even Goddard said "take what he says with a grain of salt" and he and Buffy aren't friends so I don't think she would tell him about who she loves.

: pizza:

 

[Feigenbaum]

.


Hardly, because it comes from Andrew and everyone knows he's the storyteller, even Goddard said "take what he says with a grain of salt" and he and Buffy aren't friends so I don't think she would tell him about who she loves.

: pizza:

Even though Andrew may not be a credible source, it is clearly seen that Buffy has loved both characters. She went through her passionate and dramatic love with Angel, and then another passionate, yet unstable love with Spike. Everyone can agree that she has been in love with both characters. Everyone in the audience knows it, so why can't Andrew know it. The statement was just to remind Spike and Angel that Buffy does love both of them, but she's moved on. You always still care for the ones you used to love, right?

 

[Shattered]

I am for Spuffy all the way! :love2: And, I have never really been a fan of Bangel, but it's not like I hate Angel or anything, I just think that Buffy and Spike were better together, :infatuati and I am just more fond of Spike than Angel anyway.........

 

[LadyLavinia]

Even though Andrew may not be a credible source, it is clearly seen that Buffy has loved both characters. She went through her passionate and dramatic love with Angel, and then another passionate, yet unstable love with Spike. Everyone can agree that she has been in love with both characters. Everyone in the audience knows it, so why can't Andrew know it. The statement was just to remind Spike and Angel that Buffy does love both of them, but she's moved on. You always still care for the ones you used to love, right?

Actually, Buffy's relationship with both vampires have been unstable at one point.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

I (*obviously*) love the Buffy/Angel ship and would love to somehow see a fluffy reuinion between the two! Yes, I do believe that they might be some form of "soul mates" and that they love each other, but I also think their relationship was A LOT more complicated than who does/doesn't love who.

I think most of the people who've seen BTVS and/or Angel can agree that Buffy and Angel loved each other at atleast ONE point in time. It seems to me that in the first season of BTVS the two of them become "friends" who are obviously attracted to each other. In season two they've fallen in love and then you get the whole evil-Angelus thing. In season three it seems like despite what happened, they both still love each other but are starting to realise that their relationship HAS changed signifigantly and is no longer the same as it was (before Buffy's 17th Birthday). Although I was dissapointed when Angel left, I think it was really nessesary so both characters could develop and have other relationships.

To me, it seems like even in the later seasons, Buffy and Angel still loved each other but, by season 7 of BTVS, had realised that right now they can't be together. BUT.... saying that, I also have to point out that (atleast in my opinion) there is more than one kind of love (family, friends, boy/girlfriend, etc...). Through the seasons of BTVS (after Angel's departure) Buffy had two main guys in her life (romantically). First there was Riley, and given what I have seen of their relationship I think that Buffy really did care about him and although I'm not sure how much she was "in love" with him, I think she really wanted to be in love with him and always hoped that one day she could have been (because of what she did in the episode where Riley left).

Then there was Spike. There seems to be a lot of discussion on here about who Buffy loved: Angel or Spike (or neither?) but I think that by season seven, she loved them both, just maybe not in the same way. In season 6, Buffy/Spike's relationship seemed to be about lust more than love. But when Spike appeared in season 7, I think that their relationship changed again. Buffy seemed to have romantic feelings for Spike (and he was in love with her) but especially in the later episodes, it seemed like she loved him. Only not as much romantically as the way she seemed to love her friends and family. He was there for her when she needed him and she really seemed to depend on him being around for support. It was almost like she loved him like a very close friend and had romantic feelings for him at the same time. I'm not saying that she and Angel were never really "friends", when they were together it seemed like even though they were in love with each other they were also friends who understood each other pretty well most of the time. And although I'll admit I haven't seen as many episodes with the Cordy/Angel ship in it as Spike/Buffy, it seems to me that Cordy/Angel's relationship was a lot like Spike/Buffy's in season 7.

I think that even though both Buffy and Angel had other relationships, that they never loved anyone else to the extent that they loved each other. (Like a part of them would always belong to the other or something). This isn't saying that they didn't love other people, just maybe not in the same way or as much as they did each other.

With the "Girl in Question" thing, I (for the most part) agree with Feigenbaum. I think that Andrew's statement was to remind the audience that Buffy loved both Angel and Spike, but since her relationship with the immortal was only included in one episode (one which Buffy didn't say anything directly in) I don't know if she loves the immortal or not, or how much she's moved on.

And as far as Buffy/Angel the kiss in "Chosen", I think the only person who REALLY knows what the meaning behind it was is Joss Whedon. It SEEMS like it was there to satisfy the Buffy/Angel shippers (and give them hope that maybe the two might eventually wind up together), but the episode also would have satisfied the Spike/Buffy shippers (because of what happened in the rest of the episode). It was a good idea to help give the fans a satisfying ending to the series.

So yes, I am a TOTAL B/A shipper but I think that both characters did move on to other relationships after Angel left, that they both still love each other but unfortunatly, just because you love someone doesn't always mean you can be together. Relationships are bound to have their ups and downs and like LadyLavinia said, both B/A and B/S' relationships were unstable at one point. As far as who Buffy BELONGS with (spike, angel, or anyone else) i think that's really just a matter of opinion. I think Buffy/Angel should end up together, someone else thinks Spike/Buffy should, others might think both Buffy and Angel are doomed to never have a signifigant other. Everyone has their own opinion (lol, even Joss Whedon probably would!) and since Joss is the show's creator lets just hope that one day we might get a tv movie or something to see how things actually end up. 😉 🙂

 

[LadyLavinia]

I think that you're allowing your feelings as a Buffy/Angel shipper to convince yourself that Buffy never really had any romantic feelings for Spike.

Yes, I do believe that romantically, Buffy did love Spike. Just as she had romantically, loved Angel.

Did she ever fall in love with Spike? I don't know. I rather doubt it. But I do believe that she was no longer in love with Angel. She simply loved them both. It was time for Buffy to move on and find herself. And I think that was the most important thing that Buffy had to learn. She did not feel that she was emotionally capable of dealing with a serious romance. She had to learn to find out who she really was before getting involved with any man. Who knows? Maybe one day, she will find the right man for her. Then again, she might spend the rest of her days being happily single.

 

[Angelic Slayer]

I think that you're allowing your feelings as a Buffy/Angel shipper to convince yourself that Buffy never really had any romantic feelings for Spike.

Yes, I do believe that romantically, Buffy did love Spike. Just as she had romantically, loved Angel.

Did she ever fall in love with Spike? I don't know. I rather doubt it. But I do believe that she was no longer in love with Angel. She simply loved them both. It was time for Buffy to move on and find herself. And I think that was the most important thing that Buffy had to learn. She did not feel that she was emotionally capable of dealing with a serious romance. She had to learn to find out who she really was before getting involved with any man. Who knows? Maybe one day, she will find the right man for her. Then again, she might spend the rest of her days being happily single.

Good point. The thing about Buffy loving Spike, but maybe not being IN LOVE with him was (believe it or not) the point I was trying to make (unfortuantly I have a bad habit of complicating my wording and contradicting myself 🙁 😉 ) Although I still do believe that Buffy was in love with Angel by the end (but had more or less moved past it over the years), I totally agree with "She had to learn to find out who she really was before getting involved with any man" and you brought up a VERY good point (maybe she will just be happily single!). Thanks for bringing that up, it's a REALLY great perspective that a lot of people (including myself) hadn't really concidered!!

 

[Spuffiness]

about Buffy being in love with spike-
Buffy said in season 7: "why does everybody in this house think I'm still in love with Spike?"
So I figure she was in love with him at some point, and maybe she still is.

 

[Xin Rong]

I think that you're allowing your feelings as a Buffy/Angel shipper to convince yourself that Buffy never really had any romantic feelings for Spike.

Yes, I do believe that romantically, Buffy did love Spike. Just as she had romantically, loved Angel.

Did she ever fall in love with Spike? I don't know. I rather doubt it.

Well i never thought so either, i mean how can you love spike post chipage and soulage, he was dull and annoying (no thats going to p a lot of peeps of) although there is evidence to support the view she did love spike such as in first date she does say "why does everyone think i'm still in love with spike2 which implies she did love him but she has often said that she could never love him aswell, guess it comes down to your own opinion really

 

[LadyLavinia]

Well i never thought so either, i mean how can you love spike post chipage and soulage, he was dull and annoying (no thats going to p a lot of peeps of) although there is evidence to support the view she did love spike such as in first date she does say "why does everyone think i'm still in love with spike2 which implies she did love him but she has often said that she could never love him aswell, guess it comes down to your own opinion really

Yes, it does.

And the times when Buffy said that she could never love him were times when she was trying to suppress her feelings for Spike.


But if you want to believe that she never loved Spike. Go ahead. Just as I will continue to believe that she loved both Spike and Angel.

 

[nerd4hire]

I don't know if this will help you guys or not, but I was reading around at Tim Minear.net and came across an old interview with Tim that I thought might offer some insight.

Q: Doug Petrie wrote the Buffy comic #20, dealing with what happened after Angel's departure. This story is supposed to be "canonical". In the end, although parted, the connection between Buffy and Angel remains, and that is what makes these two warriors strong. Considering everything that has happened this season, do the writers for "Buffy" and "Angel" share this vision? Is their love, not just friendship, something that all of you see as a connection that is an integral part of their existence?

Tim: I can answer this one pretty plainly. Yep.

http://www.timminear.net/archives/qa/000036.html