Let's Talk About Spuffy!

One thing i do want to make clear though. My defending Spike isn't the same thing as me saying that Buffy was to blame! I don't believe that either. All Buffy was really at fault for doing was forgetting what Spike really was at the time.

What Spike did, in itself, was wrong. No doubt about that. All i am saying is that you cannot expect the demon that Spike was then to have understood that or seen what he was doing in those moral terms. Applying the term "rape" to what happened is assuming that Spike's actions were those of a human, rather than those of a demon.

And again, the very fact that he was able to feel some kind of remorse for what he did after the incident, the fact that this demon was "human" enough to feel guilt, is much more important than anything else that happened in that episode.
 
It's interesting how everyone talks about Spike's attempted rape of Buffy in "Seeing Red", yet there hardly seems to be any mention of Buffy's assault upon Spike in "Gone" or her beating of him in "Dead Things".


You can't really blame Spike's "demon" for the attempted rape. He would have been capable of it, as a human. Willow committed psychic rape at least twice in early S6. And there was a possibility that an invisible Buffy would have raped Spike in "Gone", if he had not consented to having sex, in the end.
 
F
Feigenbaum
You make an excellent point about Buffy's actions as well in "Gone". I'd forgotten about that.
Agreed, on almost all those points.

The one thing i would slightly disagree on is ...

You can't really blame Spike's "demon" for the attempted rape. He would have been capable of it, as a human.
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Whilst this is true it kind of misses the point a little. Yes, Spike would have been capable of it as a human, but if he had been human at the time i wouldn't have been arguing the case that this wasn't a rape.

If he had commited this act as a human then you could hold him to the same moral standards all humans are judged by. The fact is that he wasn't human though, he was a demon, and therefore cannot be judged in the same way.

I wonder if this whole debate would ever have happened if Spike had forced himself onto Drusilla. Would it have made a difference if this had occured between two demons?
 
F
Feigenbaum
Ooh. Good point!
M
Mulder22
yeah we make excuses for Angelus but not for Spike without a soul
SPUFFY ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!..... anyway, back to the intelligent discussion......yerrrrrrrrrrrrr
 
Spike And B

The Buffy-Angel and the Buffy-Spike are totally different on different levels.
I love how Bangel was presented as two halves of a soul and how Spuffy was shown as two opposites needing and wanting each other. Ever since Spike appears on Buffy there is like this sexual thing going on, when he scopes her out when he first comes on, in the bronze and she's dancing, he is checking her out. In season six it was all sex and they have the whole 'do you even like me?' conversation. Also throughout BTVS there have What If episodes, especially in Season Four (my fave is Something Blue)
It gives a much longer lead up to the relationship than Bangel ever got which gives Spuffy another dimension.
I love how in season 7 last ep you see this short scene of like a couple of seconds where Spike and Buffy are down in the Summer's basement and they stand at opposite sides and look at each other than that fades out. It leaves it open for everyone to resolve the relationship how they want to.
 
to me, buffy and spike had the ultimate relationship. they overcame so many things to be together. in the Summers' basement, when it fades to black, there is only one thing that could have happened...and to me it did.
spike fell in love with buffy and was able to push away all of the evil in him, working to the side of good, even when he had no soul. and he went hunting for that soul, to give buffy what she wanted.
in the school basement, when buffy told spike she loved him, i think she was telling the truth.
buffy really did love spike, it was a real, adult love that she only realized on the night when her friends kicked her out of her house, and spike came to her and held her while she slept.
buffy's love for spike was different than the love she has with angel. their love is forever, but eternaly innocent, because they both know that they can never be together.
with spike, buffy has the chance of a normal relationship, even if it is with a vampire!
 
I used to be a HUGE Spuffy shipper, but I kind of grew out of it. To me, they just didn't fit together very well. I'll admit, they had some very incredible moments together, but in the end, Buffy didn't know what she wanted from Spike. I think there was just too much abuse in the relationship (I'm talking about Buffy's continued mental and physical abuse of Spike, not his attack on her in "Seeing Red.")
 
Ummm, please don't throw things. I'm just adding my opinion, even though I'm the biggest bangel fan ever, but I wanted to ask ya'll a question. Why do you all think that Buffy loved Spike? She never said it (and before you say she did in Chosen, even Spike knew she didn't mean it), she hated their relationship (which is why they broke up in season 6), and do you totally disreguard the whole "not baked cookie" conversation with Angel in season 7?

I am so not trying to put Spuffy down. Just because I didn't like it doesn't mean that I want everyone to not like it. I am just adding my opinion, so please don't get upset. 🙂
 
Spuffy

She never says the words i love you to Spike that is true but the thing is in Season 7 she tells Angel that he is in her heart, she tells Spike herself in Touched I think it is that 'she was there with him' and she tells Giles that she knows in her heart that he can be a better man.
Maybe it's not the soulfel love that happened in Bangel but I think that there may have been some love. Not the love that Spike wanted but there was definitely something there doncha think?
 
Okay, but (and maybe this is just me) you don't usually try to rape someone that you love. That is twisted and sick. There is no excuse for trying to force yourself on someone. I don't care who you are.

Plus, just because Buffy cares about what happens to him doesn't mean that she is in love with him. She cares about Xander and he is in her heart, but she's not in love with him.
 
Anita Blake said:
Okay, but (and maybe this is just me) you don't usually try to rape someone that you love. That is twisted and sick. There is no excuse for trying to force yourself on someone. I don't care who you are.

Plus, just because Buffy cares about what happens to him doesn't mean that she is in love with him. She cares about Xander and he is in her heart, but she's not in love with him.
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Okay, I think someone already made the demon point, but I'll make it again. Spike was a demon. He will always be a demon. The fact that he stopped himself and felt regret about what he did was very strange considering the fact that he was a demon. I doubt that most vampires would view rape as twisted and sick. I'm not justifying what he did, because it was wrong, but he was a demon!!!
 
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