Let's watch a girl get beaten to death

Joan the Vampire Slayer

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This essay by Joss was posted on WHEDONesque back in the day (May 2007) so most of you have probably already read it, but for those of you who haven't, I strongly suggest it.

He talks about why he's a feminist, basically.

Last month seventeen year old Dua Khalil was pulled into a crowd of young men, some of them (the instigators) family, who then kicked and stoned her to death. This is an example of the breath-taking oxymoron “honor killing”, in which a family member (almost always female) is murdered for some religious or ethical transgression. Dua Khalil, who was of the Yazidi faith, had been seen in the company of a Sunni Muslim, and possibly suspected of having married him or converted. That she was torturously murdered for this is not, in fact, a particularly uncommon story. But now you can watch the action up close on CNN. Because as the girl was on the ground trying to get up, her face nothing but red, the few in the group of more than twenty men who were not busy kicking her and hurling stones at her were filming the event with their camera-phones.

There were security officers standing outside the area doing nothing, but the footage of the murder was taken – by more than one phone – from the front row. Which means whoever shot it did so not to record the horror of the event, but to commemorate it. To share it. Because it was cool.

I could start a rant about the level to which we have become desensitized to violence, about the evils of the voyeuristic digital world in which everything is shown and everything is game, but honestly, it’s been said. And I certainly have no jingoistic cultural agenda. I like to think that in America this would be considered unbearably appalling, that Kitty Genovese is still remembered, that we are more evolved. But coincidentally, right before I stumbled on this vid I watched the trailer for “Captivity”.

A few of you may know that I took public exception to the billboard campaign for this film, which showed a concise narrative of the kidnapping, torture and murder of a sexy young woman. I wanted to see if the film was perhaps more substantial (especially given the fact that it was directed by “The Killing Fields” Roland Joffe) than the exploitive ad campaign had painted it. The trailer resembles nothing so much as the CNN story on Dua Khalil. Pretty much all you learn is that Elisha Cuthbert is beautiful, then kidnapped, inventively, repeatedly and horrifically tortured, and that the first thing she screams is “I’m sorry”.

“I’m sorry.”

What is wrong with women?

I mean wrong. Physically. Spiritually. Something unnatural, something destructive, something that needs to be corrected.

How did more than half the people in the world come out incorrectly? I have spent a good part of my life trying to do that math, and I’m no closer to a viable equation. And I have yet to find a culture that doesn’t buy into it. Women’s inferiority – in fact, their malevolence -- is as ingrained in American popular culture as it is anywhere they’re sporting burkhas. I find it in movies, I hear it in the jokes of colleagues, I see it plastered on billboards, and not just the ones for horror movies. Women are weak. Women are manipulative. Women are somehow morally unfinished. (Objectification: another tangential rant avoided.) And the logical extension of this line of thinking is that women are, at the very least, expendable.

I try to think how we got here. The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy. Biology: women are generally smaller and weaker than men. But they’re also much tougher. Put simply, men are strong enough to overpower a woman and propagate. Women are tough enough to have and nurture children, with or without the aid of a man. Oh, and they’ve also got the equipment to do that, to be part of the life cycle, to create and bond in a way no man ever really will. Somewhere a long time ago a bunch of men got together and said, “If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.” It’s a rather silly simplification, but I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true. How else to explain the fact that cultures who would die to eradicate each other have always agreed on one issue? That every popular religion puts restrictions on women’s behavior that are practically untenable? That the act of being a free, attractive, self-assertive woman is punishable by torture and death? In the case of this upcoming torture-porn, fictional. In the case of Dua Khalil, mundanely, unthinkably real. And both available for your viewing pleasure.

It’s safe to say that I’ve snapped. That something broke, like one of those robots you can conquer with a logical conundrum. All my life I’ve looked at this faulty equation, trying to understand, and I’ve shorted out. I don’t pretend to be a great guy; I know really really well about objectification, trust me. And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning). I just think there is the staggering imbalance in the world that we all just take for granted. If we were all told the sky was evil, or at best a little embarrassing, and we ought not look at it, wouldn’t that tradition eventually fall apart? (I was going to use ‘trees’ as my example, but at the rate we’re getting rid of them I’m pretty sure we really do think they’re evil. See how all rants become one?)

Now those of you who frequent this site are, in my wildly biased opinion, fairly evolved. You may hear nothing new here. You may be way ahead of me. But I can’t contain my despair, for Dua Khalil, for humanity, for the world we’re shaping. Those of you who have followed the link I set up know that it doesn’t bring you to a video of a murder. It brings you to a place of sanity, of people who have never stopped asking the question of what is wrong with this world and have set about trying to change the answer. Because it’s no longer enough to be a decent person. It’s no longer enough to shake our heads and make concerned grimaces at the news. True enlightened activism is the only thing that can save humanity from itself. I’ve always had a bent towards apocalyptic fiction, and I’m beginning to understand why. I look and I see the earth in flames. Her face was nothing but red.

All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause – there are few unworthy ones. And nudge yourself past the brink of tacit support to action. Once a month, once a year, or just once. If you can’t think of what to do, there is this handy link. Even just learning enough about a subject so you can speak against an opponent eloquently makes you an unusual personage. Start with that. Any one of you would have cried out, would have intervened, had you been in that crowd in Bashiqa. Well thanks to digital technology, you’re all in it now.

I have never had any faith in humanity. But I will give us props on this: if we can evolve, invent and theorize our way into the technologically magical, culturally diverse and artistically magnificent race we are and still get people to buy the idiotic idea that half of us are inferior, we’re pretty amazing. Let our next sleight of hand be to make that myth disappear.

The sky isn’t evil. Try looking up.

Source:
Let's Watch A Girl Get Beaten To Death - Whedonesque.com

Thoughts? I love Joss even more after reading this, if that's even possible.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
The title certainly... Caught my eye. xD
Tome
Tome
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M
Ms.Trick
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Wow. That was pretty amazing. I hadn't read it before so really- thanks for posting!

I've heard a lot of commentary on sexism and the like, but I've never heard it described as "viewing one half of our population as inferior." Looking at it like that, it seems even more wrong and ridiculous and stupid than how I saw it before... and trust me, I didn't think that was possible.

I remember when I first watched Joss's Equality Now speech, it was before they'd disabled the comments and I read through a couple pages of them and it was sick. There were people blaming women for every bad thing that happened in the world... from raised taxes to war to the rise of clinical depression. It just makes me so sad. 🙁
 
I love this. I'm so happy that a public figure takes up this kind of questions. Some people don't consider Buffy a feministic show, but I totally think it is. I mean, Joss have even kind of said it, so it's kind of strange people not getting that. It's not just about empowering women, it's about empoweing men too, to step out of the gender role you were given and do what ever you want.

And Joss is so right - it's not enough to shake our heads and be like "oh, thats terrible", we have to do something too!

Thank you for posting this!
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
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F
faeriegrrl27
People who don't acknowledge Buffy as feminist are crazy!
This just makes me angrier about that one article I read linked on here from a "feminist" blogger, which called Whedon a misogynistic rapist (if you read it, I'm sure you remember it--it's not easily forgotten). However, I'm very impressed with Joss, and I agree with him. It's disgusting that we watch and enjoy violence, especially against women. What IS wrong with society?
 
My goodness. What a title.

Well I think that Whedon sort of treats men and women fairly equally on his show. Women are equally likely to be brutally killed as men and equally likely to be heroes. That really is the true equality right?


(Then again, how many times was Cordelia basically 'raped' or force impregnated over the course of AtS? Like... 4? That's sort of a cliche negative woman thing)
 
When I read this thread title I thought you were talking about this film, The Killer Inside Me.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUI-_tm-3Zc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUI-_tm-3Zc[/ame]

In it, Casey Affleck brutally beats and murders Jessica Alba and Kate Hudson, and once again it is all in the name of enetertainment.

---------- Post added at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

It's disgusting that we watch and enjoy violence,

I agree.

especially against women. What IS wrong with society?

Why especially against women? Would this type of violence be anymore acceptable against men?
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
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Why especially against women? Would this type of violence be anymore acceptable against men?

No, of course not. I was relating it back to the topic. I was recently in Spain and I found bullfights absolutely disgusting--and that's against a bull. No form of violence for entertainment is acceptable.
 
No, of course not. I was relating it back to the topic. I was recently in Spain and I found bullfights absolutely disgusting--and that's against a bull. No form of violence for entertainment is acceptable.

I didn't mean that question as dig at you in any way.

There is a question though: is an entertainment industry without violence even possible? I mean, Joss himself has written and directed some massively violent shows/movies. Where is the line that divides the acceptable and apparently harmless to the unacceptable and dangerous?
 
I'm going to voice what I imagine what will be an unpopular opinion. I don't like this article. I'll do my best to explain why. As a precursor I would like to say I don't approve of any violence, discrimination or prejudice towards women. I am in no way a misogynist.

Firstly I don't like the example of violence towards to women he used.
Dua Khalil, who was of the Yazidi faith, had been seen in the company of a Sunni Muslim, and possibly suspected of having married him or converted.
To me it sounds like she was killed because she strayed from her religion, not because she was a woman. I don't, in any way, condone the actions of her murderers or those who stood by and watched, but I don't think Whedon should have used it to make a point about feminism. This murder was about religious intolerance.
I could start a rant about the level to which we have become desensitized to violence, about the evils of the voyeuristic digital world in which everything is shown and everything is game, but honestly, it’s been said.
I think he should have had this rant, it is far more relevant to the example he used.
The theory I developed in college (shared by many I’m sure) is one I have yet to beat: Womb Envy.
I really don't by into this. As a man, I don't envy a woman because she gives birth. I respect it, most definately, but I am not envious. I can only speak for myself, but I would bet that not many men would buy into Whedon's theory.
“If all we do is hunt and gather, let’s make hunting and gathering the awesomest achievement, and let’s make childbirth kinda weak and shameful.”
I don't see chilbirth as weak and shameful. I don't think a majority do. I don't think men talk about or think about childbirth as if it were shameful at all, most men would be full of admiration for any mother.
I believe on a mass, unconscious level, it’s entirely true.
I believe it's entirely untrue. I know my own thoughts, Mr Whedon, and I don't believe childbirth is weak or shameful. Ask any father about the day his partner gave birth and not a single one will have a bad word to say about the mother.
. And I’m not for a second going down the “women are saints” route – that just leads to more stone-throwing (and occasional Joan-burning).
No, to me it seems that he going down the 'all men are b****rds' route. And that's what really annoys me about this. He makes no attempt to differenciate between the kind of men who will murder a woman because of who she fell in love with and the ordinary, everyday bloke.
I don't particularly want a massive debate about this, but I couldn't stand by while Whedon lumped all men in with a bunch of misogynistic murderers. I'll say it again, I'm all for equal rights for women, and I don't approve of any violence, discrimination or prejudice towards women. I'm just really don't like the generalisations Whedon has made.

Rant over. Controversial stuff. So Ima sit back and wait for everyone to disagree with me 😀
 
I didn't mean that question as dig at you in any way.

There is a question though: is an entertainment industry without violence even possible? I mean, Joss himself has written and directed some massively violent shows/movies. Where is the line that divides the acceptable and apparently harmless to the unacceptable and dangerous?

Ah, I understand. My "unacceptable" comment is more directed toward real-life, caught-on-tape violence. Like this woman's death or a bullfight, in which a person or animal is truly being tortured and killed for the pleasure of the audience. I'm also against movies like Saw, where the whole point of the film is to provide viewers with dark, gruesome violence. Buffy was violent, but violence was not the central aspect of the show. There was humor and friendship and goodness too, and that was more what it was about. Violence is a part of life, and art always imitates life. However, there's something sick in enjoying blatant cruelty and violence for the sake of it.

To me it sounds like she was killed because she strayed from her religion, not because she was a woman. I don't, in any way, condone the actions of her murderers or those who stood by and watched, but I don't think Whedon should have used it to make a point about feminism. This murder was about religious intolerance.
Except that religions with these policies are often very misogynistic. Men are often not at all held up to the same standards, at least from my understanding.
 
I really don't by into this. As a man, I don't envy a woman because she gives birth. I respect it, most definately, but I am not envious. I can only speak for myself, but I would bet that not many men would buy into Whedon's theory. I don't see chilbirth as weak and shameful. I don't think a majority do. I don't think men talk about or think about childbirth as if it were shameful at all, most men would be full of admiration for any mother. I believe it's entirely untrue. I know my own thoughts, Mr Whedon, and I don't believe childbirth is weak or shameful. Ask any father about the day his partner gave birth and not a single one will have a bad word to say about the mother.

I'm not saying that Whedon is entirely correct in his opinion, neither am I denying your opinion but you both have a point. You're right, alot of men think their partners are absolute superheroes for what they go through during pregnancies and child birth, and rightly so! However, there has been a long tradition of pregnancy and child birth being regarded as unclean filthy and even evil.

I can't speak for every tradition but I know both Catholicism and the Roma tradition both have/had strict rules as to what a woman could do whilst pregnant and for several weeks afterwards.

In the Roma tradition a pregnant women is said to be in Marime or impure and she will remain in this state of impurity until the child is baptised. She will be only allowed associate with other women throughout her pregnancy for fear she would infect the men of her community. She will see her husband very seldom and even then she must wear gloves as well as the customary long skirts that cover legs and lower part of her body which is believed to be especially impure because of menustration. She is not allowed have the child at home or within her community because childbirth is impure and if she were to have the child at home it would have to be burned, along with everything with it.

When the child is born there is a ceremony that must be preformed in order for the father to claim the child. It involves the women laying the child on the ground and the father picking the child up and thus claiming him without the taint of the impure mother's touch. Only then will the mother go through a cleansing ceremony herself that will allow her to retake her place in the community.

In Catholicism, women, until very recently, we required to get a blessing from a priest after childbirth to purify them as they are regarded to be unclean. I have been told many stories of how men would demand a new, unblessed mother, would be forced to leave a room of men for fear she would sully them.

I'm sure people could provide many more examples from many different cultures and religions of similar practices.

While you, individually and thankfully do not fall under the category of men who have behaved in this way that does not detract from the fact that it has happened and continues to happen the world over.

A friend of mine had a baby two years ago, her boyfriend was in the delivery room with her, while she was in the middle of labour he told her that she was disgusting and walked out of the hospital. What is even more infuruating is that she defended his actions.
 
Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
Good post.
Except that religions with these policies are often very misogynistic. Men are often not at all held up to the same standards, at least from my understanding.

That's a good point, well made. Although not always true. Have a look at this shocking news story.

This barbaric scene belongs in the Dark Ages, but pictures emerged today of a group of Islamic militants who forced villagers to watch as they stoned a man to death for adultery.

Mohamed Abukar Ibrahim, a 48-year-old, was buried in a hole up to his chest and pelted with rocks until he died.

If you want to see the pics click here. BUT BE WARNED. The bloody parts are pixelated but it's still quite disturbing. I myself have seen the unpixelated version, it is one of the most shocking images I have ever seen.

To answer Kean:
While you, individually and thankfully do not fall under the category of men who have behaved in this way that does not detract from the fact that it has happened and continues to happen the world over.

Yes, you're completely right. It does happen, and I would never deny that. I just felt Whedon had made an rash generalisation.
 
Why especially against women? Would this type of violence be anymore acceptable against men?

I read that as meaning that popular culture portray violence especially against women (the petite blonde in the alley, y'know), more than that it is especially unacceptable with violence against women.

Firstly I don't like the example of violence towards to women he used. To me it sounds like she was killed because she strayed from her religion, not because she was a woman. I don't, in any way, condone the actions of her murderers or those who stood by and watched, but I don't think Whedon should have used it to make a point about feminism. This murder was about religious intolerance.
I think he should have had this rant, it is far more relevant to the example he used.

I disagree. I think, as Kean pointed out, that as long as religions - particularly the three fairly monotheistic ones originating in the middle east - so clearly display double standards when it comes to men and women straying from the path the religious leaders set, this is a very valid argument for feminism.
 
T
This Year's Girl
[No message]
I read that as meaning that popular culture portray violence especially against women (the petite blonde in the alley, y'know), more than that it is especially unacceptable with violence against women.

Ah, I see what you mean.



I disagree. I think, as Kean pointed out, that as long as religions - particularly the three fairly monotheistic ones originating in the middle east - so clearly display double standards when it comes to men and women straying from the path the religious leaders set, this is a very valid argument for feminism.

Again I can only speak about what I know, which happens to be Catholicism, but there are many more instances of women being made inferior. It was only in the 60's/70's that women were even allowed on the altar of a church, and even then it was at the priest's own discretion. Then there is the very fact that women are still forbidden from becoming priests. At the route of all of this is the pursuit of power. This is basically what every act of prejudice and violence comes from.

Even if the woman that Whedon spoke about was brutalised for religious reasons rather than her being a women, the impetus for the attack is still power and excerising of that power, whether it be over her as a member of the Yazidi faith or over her as woman.
 
i'm a woman doing a man's job
when i meet people, they often wonder (sometimes in a friendly way, sometimes not at all friendly) how i'm able to do this;
you could believe that the people dubting my ability to do my job because of my gender are men.

but not at all. men and women have the same comportement about it.

i think that the problem of women being thought inferior to men won't be resolved as long as the women themselves will continue thinking they are inferior.
 
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faeriegrrl27
What exactly is your job?
i'm a woman doing a man's job
when i meet people, they often wonder (sometimes in a friendly way, sometimes not at all friendly) how i'm able to do this;
you could believe that the people dubting my ability to do my job because of my gender are men.

but not at all. men and women have the same comportement about it.

i think that the problem of women being thought inferior to men won't be resolved as long as the women themselves will continue thinking they are inferior.
Do you not think that describing your job as a 'man's job' is not an example of the concept of inferiority that women need to reject themselves?
@
 
I really don't by into this. As a man, I don't envy a woman because she gives birth. I respect it, most definately, but I am not envious. I can only speak for myself, but I would bet that not many men would buy into Whedon's theory.

My take on the article wasn't that Joss actually believes in "womb envy" but was using that as an example of how absurd the whole thing is. I think he was trying to say that the only possible way he could rationalize this behavior was with the "womb envy" theory, which is clearly ridiculous (as ridiculous as Freud's "penis envy"), thus saying that this behavior is absolutely irrational. That's how I read it.

I believe it's entirely untrue. I know my own thoughts, Mr Whedon, and I don't believe childbirth is weak or shameful. Ask any father about the day his partner gave birth and not a single one will have a bad word to say about the mother.

That's kind of a generalization on its own, isn't it? I think Kean made some really good points on this subject, but I wanted to add another. I think Joss is probably justified in saying/implying that the majority of the world feels negatively about childbirth. In a lot of the places where we live, it might not be so, but there are a ton of small African tribes who feel that way. There's also China, which, to my understanding (which, I will totally admit, is limited) has absolutely no respect for childbirth... just the making of a son. Orthodox Judaism also have a negative view of fertility, at least. I'm not sure about the particulars of childbirth, but men are not allowed to touch a woman if she is menstruating, the ultimate sign of fertility, because she is "unclean." Consequently, some men won't touch women at all just in case she's menstruating. One rabbi at an Orthodox temple here won't shake a woman's hand for just that reason. Especially when you include China in the equation, it really does seem like it's a majority that doesn't respect women. (another interesting Jewish note: The first Orthodox female rabbi was just ordained this year, despite having the qualifications for several years, and doesn't even hold the official title of "rabbi.")

No, to me it seems that he going down the 'all men are b****rds' route. And that's what really annoys me about this. He makes no attempt to differenciate between the kind of men who will murder a woman because of who she fell in love with and the ordinary, everyday bloke.

You have a good point- Joss was generalizing and shouldn't have done so. On the other hand, he was trying to make a point and I think the differentiation between those types of men is understood. This rant was about the misogynistic kind of men and was focused on them. IMO, that was clear and the "good" kind of men was just not really a part of the article at all.
 
Wishing Oceans
Wishing Oceans
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Professor Walsh
Professor Walsh
And on the topic of how some cultures values sons over daughters, don't forget India.
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