I'm not sure this is the right forum to discuss this... anyway I lately had a debate on another site about the moment Liam met Darla and was killed and sired, expressing (and explaining) my belief that he knew what Darla was offering him and that he consciously made the choice of becoming a vampire. I'm curious to know if there is someone else who shares my belief!
Liam chose to become a vampire?
- Thread starter NightLady
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Kana
Soulless human
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There is little evidence that he consciously chose to become a vampire. It seems that he was simply hoping for a alleyway tryst with the beautiful and mysterious Darla. Also he may not have known what being a vampire entailed, that is to say losing his soul and becoming a remorseless killer.
So in short, unfortunately, I don't share your belief.
Thank you for your reply, Kana! I only wanted to point out that I never said that he consciously chose to lose his soul and to become a remorseless killer, 'just' that he chose to become a vampire 🙂
If Liam chose to become a vampire, then we also have to believe that Darla and William chose to become vampires as well. Their 'consent' to The Master and Drusilla respectively was much more explicit than the 'consent' Liam gave to Darla.
But I disagree. I don't think they were explicitly consenting to being vampires. Darla didn't want to die, she just wanted an out and didn't pause to consider what that would mean. Liam wanted a tumble with what looked to be a noble woman. She offered to 'show him the world', she didn't tell him he'd have to become an undead monster to see it. William wanted to be something better, didn't want to be looked down on anymore and didn't think about what that meant.
None of them knew that they were agreeing to be a vampire. There was never anything explicitly stated 'do you want to be a vampire'. It was always wrapped up in secrets and mystique. I have no doubt that Darla would have agreed, even if it was specifically spelled out for her, William and Liam...I don't think they would have agreed to become vampires if it was completely laid down for them.
But I disagree. I don't think they were explicitly consenting to being vampires. Darla didn't want to die, she just wanted an out and didn't pause to consider what that would mean. Liam wanted a tumble with what looked to be a noble woman. She offered to 'show him the world', she didn't tell him he'd have to become an undead monster to see it. William wanted to be something better, didn't want to be looked down on anymore and didn't think about what that meant.
None of them knew that they were agreeing to be a vampire. There was never anything explicitly stated 'do you want to be a vampire'. It was always wrapped up in secrets and mystique. I have no doubt that Darla would have agreed, even if it was specifically spelled out for her, William and Liam...I don't think they would have agreed to become vampires if it was completely laid down for them.
I'm confused. What have Darla and William to do with what happened to Liam? Different characters, different situations, different dialogues. And do you seriously need things to be 'stated explicitly'?
Yes, I do need things to be 'explicitly stated' if I'm consenting to anything. It's kind of the point. Would you say 'yes' to anything that was wrapped up in secrets and lies?
My point is, their situations similar. Too similar. William and Liam, it was the whole point. A well dressed lady takes them into a dark alley and asks them if they want to 'see the world'. If we are to believe that Liam consented to being a vampire, then we have to believe that William consented as well. I don't believe that you can say 'yes, Liam wanted to be a vampire' while at the same time saying 'no, William didn't want to be a vampire'.
My point is, their situations similar. Too similar. William and Liam, it was the whole point. A well dressed lady takes them into a dark alley and asks them if they want to 'see the world'. If we are to believe that Liam consented to being a vampire, then we have to believe that William consented as well. I don't believe that you can say 'yes, Liam wanted to be a vampire' while at the same time saying 'no, William didn't want to be a vampire'.
Kana
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thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
I agree that Liam just thought that he was going to have a fine time with a beautiful noble lady- he was a known womaniser and I don't think he thought any more deeply about the situation than that.
Also Liam wsa very drunk at that particular moment.
Drusilla spoke to something 'poetic' she saw in William, a frustrated romantic, and found a connection there.
I only difference that I see between Liam getting sired and William getting sired is that Darla explicitly told Liam to 'close his eyes' (In 'Becoming'), and then she turned demonic and bit him, whereas William saw Dru's 'true' face and still allowed it all to happen.
I don't believe either of them knew tha they were about to become a vampire, but it could be argued that William was aware that something supernatural was about to happen.
Also Liam wsa very drunk at that particular moment.
Drusilla spoke to something 'poetic' she saw in William, a frustrated romantic, and found a connection there.
I only difference that I see between Liam getting sired and William getting sired is that Darla explicitly told Liam to 'close his eyes' (In 'Becoming'), and then she turned demonic and bit him, whereas William saw Dru's 'true' face and still allowed it all to happen.
I don't believe either of them knew tha they were about to become a vampire, but it could be argued that William was aware that something supernatural was about to happen.
Lyri
Excellent point. I never really thought about the 'close your eyes' bit before.
But Drusilla didn't ask William if he wanted to see 'another' world, she didn't speak of 'exciting, frightening things' as did Darla. She merely said "I see what you want. Something glowing and glistening. Something... effulgent. Do you want it?"
Darla's words were revealing, Drusilla's weren't. As were Liam and William's consents. The first said "yes, show me your world", the second "yes, I want something effulgent". So, not similar at all.
And to ask your first question, heck no! And that's my point. If I met a mysterious man and he were to ask me if I wanted to see his world, and to see frightening things and he asked me to close my eyes, the hell I would. Not in this world and even less in a world populated by vampires. But if he offered something effulgent... maybe I would say yes 😛
Being aware doesn't mean consenting. You could be right if William had said yes after seeing Drusilla's vampire face but that's not case.
And I disagree about Liam being very drunk. Tipsy, maybe, but not drunk to the point that he wasn’t conscious of what he was getting into. When he follows Darla in the alley he walks very straight and when he talks to her there is nothing in what he says and how he says it implying that he is drunk. He doesn’t slurs, doesn’t falter, doesn’t struggle to find the right words. Actually his choice of words is even elaborate.
As @thetopher pointed out, William knew more about what was happening to him than Liam did. Darla made sure that Liam didn't see her face so he wasn't completely aware of what was happening. She kept something from him, which meant that Liam wasn't aware of everything that was happening and wasn't in a position to actually give any sort of consent. Drusilla made sure that William saw her full face, made sure he knew that there was something more going on that what she was saying, but William didn't stop her to ask any questions, he let her proceed.
William was in a better position to consent, even if I still think that neither of them consented to be a vampire.
As to the consent thing, it wouldn't matter what any man - or woman - said to me. If I didn't have all the details, if I didn't know 100% what was happening or going to happen, I would never say 'yes'. I wouldn't be able to. It's why people are fighting so hard for the rape laws to be changed.
William was in a better position to consent, even if I still think that neither of them consented to be a vampire.
As to the consent thing, it wouldn't matter what any man - or woman - said to me. If I didn't have all the details, if I didn't know 100% what was happening or going to happen, I would never say 'yes'. I wouldn't be able to. It's why people are fighting so hard for the rape laws to be changed.
Skanky Vamp
Sniffin' the Slayer
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I've had a few women slumming it in my day that promised me exciting, frightening things, sadly none were vampires... at least in the literal sense. I am sure Liam had his fare share of those as well, so those promises were nothing new. It just so happens Darla was speaking literally, not figuratively.
I suppose it's up to interpretation because Darla's words were not revealing at all to me.
I mean Liam had at that point probably never been far away from Galway, if ever away at all, I mean, it wasn't as if people traveled continents easily back then. And while his father seems reasonably well off they were clearly nowhere near Darla's social status. She looked like a noble woman, with means and non-work lifestyle Liam could only dream of... her words, to me, were not revealing of an "undead" world, but just of a rich world, foreign to someone like him.
"Show me your world" is just another world than the one he was living. To me that doesn't mean he had any idea of her vampiric intentions. It just means he was hoping for something more from his life than staying in Galway, taking over his father's business and working hard for a living.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but to me personally I think he was hoodwinked into becoming a vampire. He wanted something, but he didn't want that.
Lyri
Oh. I can give rep now. Sorry, it wasn't letting me before. But yes. This.
We're edging into some very uneasy territory here. Just because someone isn't slurring or faltering, doesn't mean that they're not too drunk to give consent.
I already commented on William's consent. I'll just add that it's believable that he didn't try to stop Drusilla because he was shocked. And anyway my post wasn't about William 🙂
thetopher
Member of the Church Of Faith
Drusilla revealed her 'true' face and William does nothing, he allows it to happen. That, to me, says he consented more than a drunk Liam thinking that he's getting lucky and closing his eyes. What's some noble-woman gonna do to him? Mug him?
Plus Drusilla was quite obviously 'touched' by her way of speaking. William might've been heartbroken but he was was fully in his right mind.
I think that might be a combination of DB's acting and Liam just trying very hard to be as smooth as possible to a potential bedmate, especially one of high social standing. He pulls out the best lines that he thinks that she'll be receptive to.
I can't give you rep for this for some reason, but, yes. This. I agree 100% with everything you've said here.
Taake
Sometimes the karma buttons seem to take some extra time to load. Not sure why.
We are talking of Liam and of the scene in the show, not of what makes or not makes a consent right in a real world.
So talking of Liam and the scene just like you need Darla to explicitly ask 'do you want to become a vampire?' I need to see that Liam is drunk. It's a show, if a character is supposed to be drunk the actor has to play it.
What? Where does it say that Liam knew about vampires before he became one? There's nothing that I've seen on either show that even hints that Liam knew that Darla was a vampire before he followed her into that alley, or that he knew that vampires were even real.
It isn't spelled "explicitly" (just like so many other things) but when he goes back to his home and kills his family it's pretty clear that at the time people were aware of the existence of vampires. Also in 'spill the bottle', when he loses his memory and goes back to when he was human, the first think he does when he feels the urge to bite Cordelia is to go in the bathroom to check if he can see his reflection in the mirror, and when he doesn't he understand at once that he is a vampire.