It matters quite a bit because that would determine how savvy Liam would be.
I fail to see how Galway being or not being overrun by vampires would mean that Liam knew or not knew about vampires. It’s a very extreme, black or white conclusion. Having had even one single first hand experience or having heard from others about the existence of vampires it’s enough for someone to know, which is all I’m saying. That Liam
knew, not that he had personally met a vampire or that vampires overrun Galway every night.
You're assuming that with little evidence, that the first thing he would think it a woman is acting a worst unusually is that she would be a vampire. I find this highly unlikely.
Little evidence? maybe... but were is the evidence of the contrary?
In Spin Th Bottle, he though it possible that Lorne could be a vampire which suggests to me he hadn't met one. He could have met one between the age of 16 and 26, but even then it's assumption that he would have met enough to be on guard for any human acting slightly different from the norm.
Again, I never said that Liam had met another vampire before Darla - and I don’t actually think he did, even if the scene in STB doesn’t prove it didn’t happen between the age of 17 and 26 - what I’m saying is that he KNEW they existed and when you know that something dangerous exists, doesn’t matter if you have or not personally seen or met this something, you ARE on guard. It works so in real world as well. If you want to deny even this, I don’t really know what to say.
About Spin the bottle, as I already pointed out that episode actually proves that he knew about vampires. When he felt that something was wrong he ran in the bathroom to check himself in the mirror and he assumed he was one at once. “I'm a vampire. They're gonna kill me.” Why would he think that the lack of reflect in a mirror was a vampire thing if he had no notions of them?
If that’s not a proof that he knew...
How???? He references were so vague, but quite beguiling. All that she revealed it that she was from out of town and she could show him the world. Why would he automatically think vampire?
I have said enough on the matter, I feel I’m starting to repeat myself... anyway, again, logic.
Let’s make an example: everyone knows that drugs exist even if not everyone have never had any personal experience with it... right? If you (generally speaking) go somewhere and a stranger comes to you and offers you in a seductive manner to show another world, an exciting,
dangerous one, would you assume right away that he/she is talking of sex or wouldn’t you want to check out what exactly is he/she meaning? Would you close your eyes without questioning anything? I doubt it, because it would be very, very dumb. So, unless you are telling me that Liam was very very dumb, to me everything goes back to the question: did or didn’t Liam know about vampires’ existence? The possibility that he knew and didn’t even ‘suspect’ (which is different than saying that he “automatically think vampire”) would mean that he was way beyond stupid. And Liam didn’t seem stupid to me. Not so much, at least.
There is still no evidence he knew she was a vampire. For all he knew, the whole 'close your eyes', meant she was going to give him a happy 'trouser kiss' then whisk him away from his dull life.
And there is NO evidence AT ALL that he didn’t know. Did Angel (souled Angel, not ‘Angelus’) ever accuse Darla of having tricked him? Did he ever hint that he thought she was talking of sex? If that’s what had happened, when he broached the subject with human Darla in ATS, he would have said something of the sort instead of simply telling her that she had damned him.
There's little evidence he knew anything about vampires. Even if he knew they existed, you're assuming he had any preconceived notions about them.
And there is NO evidence AT ALL that he didn’t know. And no, I’m not assuming anything. I have quoted several line from the show that hint/prove that he knew and that he had notions about them. The foul herbs, the invite, the mirror (read my previous comments for details), and maybe something else I can’t remember now lol
What do you have to support your theory that he didn’t? Did Angel/Liam in Spin the Bottle ask others what they were talking about or what a vampire was? He did comment on the weirdness of the other’s clothes and way of speech, to wonder about vampires would have been the only logic reaction from someone who didn’t know about their real existence. So, why didn’t he say anything that could entail he didn’t know about vampires? And he was going on vampire’s hunt with only Cordelia as a partner. Shouldn’t he have asked how could he recognise and kill a vampire?
OK, when did Liam work out Darla was a vampire. It took Cordy for example, who at the time of Ats Season 1 a lot longer than a few seconds to work out Russell Winters was a vampire. Again, your theory requires way too many assumptions.
When? You mean the exact second he
suspected? Lol. Ok, I’d say between the moment she says “Things you've never seen, never even heard of.” And the moment he replies “Sounds exciting.”
😉
About Cordy, why would she suspect Russell Winters was a vampire? The vampires she had met in Sunnydale were more or less animals that lived in the cemeteries. They didn’t usually have a successful carrier, a butler or a beautiful house. Of course she wouldn't suspect right away. But the moment she realized there were no mirrors in his house, it took her exactly
one second to understand the truth. One single thing and she not only suspected. She KNEW.
That's completely believable. If Liam hadn't come across many vampires he's not going to necessarily assume that every attractive mysterious girl is a vampire.
I never said that Liam should know about Darla just because she was attractive. What’s that to do with it? It’s the things she says, the way she acts and the fact that she is “alone in an alley with the reputation that this one has” (quoting Liam). And again. I never said he assumed but that he should have ‘suspected’ and should have acted on that suspect. It’s the fact that he doesn’t that makes me think that he knows and it’s ok with it.
He's clearly not grown up with any real experience with them, (as evidenced in STB) so it wouldn't be logical for him to jump to that conclusion. If Darla is simply this mysterious girl from out of Galway, then it makes perfect sense that she's seen many different and exciting, even frightening things. If Liam hasn't been out of Galway, then outside world may seem like an exciting but also possibly frightening place.
We are just going around and around in circles. STB only proves that until Liam was 17een he had never SEEN a vampire. It doesn’t prove that he didn’t after or that he didn’t know about them. Actually the contrary.
If Darla is simply this mysterious girl from out of Galway, then it makes perfect sense that she's seen many different and exciting, even frightening things. If Liam hasn't been out of Galway, then outside world may seem like an exciting but also possibly frightening place.
Yeah... because in 1753 Ireland it was so normal to see a well dressed lady travel alone and go out in the night to hit on strangers while talking of frightening things...
A woman he knows her audience. Liam is a guy who is bored with the typical women of his time. Darla was someone exciting and interesting (which links wonderfully to what he said to Buffy in Halloween.) Morality aside, Darla fits the bill.
When do you get the notion that Liam was bored with women? He surely didn’t look bored while he was hitting on the waitress in the pub where he was drinking before meeting Darla. Or when he was trying to seduce his father’s servant in that other flashback.
And why would Darla think that she needed to act mysterious to get to him? Even if she wanted to seduce him, which clearly isn’t the case, she only had to ask “hey, wanna f***?” to have him
🙂 Or do you really think he would have refused her because he was “bored”? And if she only wanted to kill him, she could have attacked him the moment he followed her, no need to do or say anything else. No, what she wanted was a willing partner.
A horny guy who wanted to see the world. Darla words played directly into Liam's desires. You're simply making the assumption that, that means 'vampire'. He could have just took at face value: as an exciting woman who could finally show him the world (after perhaps a bit of nookie). Also look at Owen Thurman, he was guy who found danger and mystery exciting.
You are just playing in my hands, you know?
😀
Yes, Owen knew that vampires existed, knew that Buffy was a vampire slayer and he was excited by this, so much that he didn’t care to die. How does this contradict the fact that Liam knew that vampires existed, knew that Darla was a vampire and he was excited by this, so much that he didn’t care to die AND become a vampire (which in his foolish eyes could mean being powerful and immortal)? It's actually a very strong comparision that shows how it's possible that someone can be seduced by the supernatural world.
There's nothing actually that untoward about her words. I mean, seriously? Is he to think any girl from outside Galway is vampire? That's not smart, just odd. Or that any girl alone must a be vampire? Has he never seen a girl walk by herself before? Hell, girls apparent do that in LA, so in small town Galway??? Or that she used the word "frightening", yes, sure, Liam's first thought would be "here's a vampire who's going to sire, but it's most likely one of the Anne Rice vampires, oh wait..." That is a HUGE leap in logic for anyone, let a lone someone who probably doesn't lie awake all night thinking about vampires. As I said, all that came across to Liam was an exciting, interesting girl who show him things he's never seen before. The "frightening" thing probably just played to his sense of adventure.
Around and around in circles...
Anyway, yes, seriously. No, not any girl. No, not any girl alone. No, small town Galway in 1753 was VERY different from modern LA and I can bet on this even if I’m not an expert in history
😉
No, I disagree. For the rest read what I wrote before....
A good one. For me, it's actually quite powerful. Liam was a waste of space as human, at least at that point. It was cruel twist of fate, but also bad choices, that led him to Darla. It was also a twist of fate that as Angelus, he bit the wrong girl. All of these chance encounters and decisions led to become a vampire with a soul and ultimately a champion.
I’m confused. It’s all very nice, but what has this to do with my question? As you said Liam was a waste of space as human (something we agree on, finally XD) how would the fact that he became a vampire of his own will change the path the character did? Or was I right and the issue here is that you refuse to accept this idea because in some way you feel it taints Angel’s image as a champion?
No, you'd create a system like Ford, where we had some sort of hint that he wanted to become a vampire. It probably would be more straightforward in terms of what was happening, but if the backstory was good enough then it would be evocative.
No, I wouldn’t. Because it had already been done (Lie to me comes before Becoming... and hey, maybe that’s when the writers got the idea!), because it’s a totally different context and most important because I wouldn’t want the viewer to think that Liam was in search of a vampire siring him, like Ford, Chantarelle and the other members of the Sunset Club.
What makes the writing great is that Darla was totally deceiving Liam and playing the part he wanted her to play. If you actually look at Darla's character, she's done this a few times. Hell, she did it in the first episode.
Uh? In the first episode Darla faked being an innocent defenceless girl. Totally the opposite she did with Liam. And how would she know what part Liam wanted her to play. All that she knew about him was that he loved drinking, fighting and whoring. She didn’t have to deceive, fake or play any part.
Quoting myself: Even if she wanted to seduce, which isn’t the case, she only had to ask “hey, wanna f***?” to have him.
I'm all for that, but for me, it makes more sense the way most people are reading it and it makes it no less compelling. In fact it makes it worse to think of in terms of your theory, because there is little set up. You're basically basing your argument on what, one word? For me, it's makes it more compelling if Liam didn't know what was going on and it also works wonderfully for Darla's character consistency when it comes to beautiful, deceptive, seductress.
No, I’m not basing my argument on one word.
OT I’m curious: where do you get the idea that Darla is deceptive? I mean, apart from the scene in the first episode, who else did she deceive? Of course she didn’t go around saying to her victims “I’m a vampire and I want to kill you” but this doesn’t mean she was deceitful. I’ve never seen her in that light, on the contrary I’ve always thought of her as being honest and straightforward. Of course I’m talking of ATS where her character is fully developed...
Now, I fail to see how Liam’s willingness to become a vampire would make Angel’s story (because here we are talking of Angel, aren’t we?) less compelling or Darla’s character less consistent. It’s actually the contrary to me, because in this light Angel’s remorse has a totally different meaning and since I realized this I have changed a bit my opinion of him (but this is a different matter altogether). About Darla, the idea that she wanted a willing mate makes her character more consistent AND more interesting to me.
Anyway this is a totally personal preference/opinion, not a real argument to support one theory or the other, because what we like or what we think should have been more compelling/interesting doesn’t influence the outcome imo
I've heard people use this argument before, but many characters had lied or twisted the truth, but we need to look at context. Angel has rarely been easy on himself when it comes to personal responsibility.
Yes, other characters have lied... so what? Forgive me, but I don’t understand what’s your point here.
It's possible, but seems be more something you want to believe. There is little evidence supporting your argument and far text derailing it. I suppose we can all believe what we want to believe. I just like to believe what is consistent and makes sense and doesn't require too much pointless conjecture, especially if I find the story interesting enough.
I was simply answering to your assumption that a few vague and inconsistent words said by Angel 200 years after having been sired were an actual proof that he didn’t want to become a vampire and offering several reasonable explanation to them. But you keep dismissing everything with YOUR opinion that there is little evidence, while returning not even a small valid proof to sustain your belief. And aren’t you bothering too much for a conjecture you find so pointless?
Informed consent is extremely important, but matters little in terms of my argument anyway, because the fact remains, there is still too little evidence to support your argument. If you simply want to believe it, fine.
It matters because it was another of the many explanations I gave to answer your objection to MY argument. And the fact that even if there were little evidence to support my argument (and I don’t think this is the case), there still are NONE to support yours. All you (and others) have expressed is your personal opinions, which are as valid as mine, and the fan wish to believe that Liam was a good guy. A fact, btw, that I’ve never questioned.
