Liam chose to become a vampire?

[NightLady]

LOL. This thread is really rather funny. Going so far as to even outright discard what we have seen and going into 'shoulda, woulda, coulda' territory. That's just insane troll logic. Though come to think of it that would be an insult to insane trolls. There is just one thing that matters in this instance. It's a little thing called CANON. It doesn't fit your way of thinking for whatever reason....well tough.

Fact is Liam was drunk. I doubt drunk people pay attention to someone's skin tone. Kinda doubt they would even notice if someone was breathing or not. Darla only vamped out after Liam's eyes were closed. Whether vampire folklore existed back then or not doesn't really matter. How the hell is someone to come to the conclusion that a pretty lady all dressed up is one? Just from her infering that she would show the guy the world? We also know that once you have been drained to the point of death there is no choice involved anymore.

You can make up anything you want. You can do the whole 'coulda, woulda, shoulda'. Fact remains there is only 1 thing that counts and that is canon.

Exactly, I was insulting you're argument, not you. Insulting/critiquing somebody's argument when it's spectacularly bad/shallow is entirely valid.

You're taking all this to mean an attack on you personally, which is, ironically, a sign of immaturity actually. 😉

A gathering of crazed angel fans yahoo! Nobody else? Come on, I'm sure there are others... bullies always go in a pack lol
Hey, but I'm not complaining! I'm flattered my thread caused so much rumor, that's what makes me think that I'm hitting the mark 😀

 

[The Bronze]

Thanks @thetopher

I totally forget which episode we got the flashback in.

Anyway I don't see a mention of vampires, demons or anything of the sort. I don't see a mention of I'm going to be killing you and leaving your body behind to eat your family. So unless Darla has the most expressive eyes in history to convey all of that without saying a word then it's fairly safe to assume Liam had no clue what was going on.

I give Angel plenty of criticism for his actions on these boards but Liam has no case to answer here.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

You can make up anything you want. You can do the whole 'coulda, woulda, shoulda'. Fact remains there is only 1 thing that counts and that is canon.

In my opinion that viewpoint is rather myopic for a show that has been off the air for a dozen years yet still has a fanbase talking and discussing hidden subtext, the 'subtile' foreshadowing, and the inner thoughts and feelings of characters.

 

[nightshade]

Can we please keep this a civil discussion, no need to insult each other.

 

[NightLady]

Thanks @thetopher

I totally forget which episode we got the flashback in.

Anyway I don't see a mention of vampires, demons or anything of the sort. I don't see a mention of I'm going to be killing you and leaving your body behind to eat your family. So unless Darla has the most expressive eyes in history to convey all of that without saying a word then it's fairly safe to assume Liam had no clue what was going on.

I like to go beyond the explicitly stated things and to search for subtext and hidden meanings, such as – to make a banal example ‘why was Buffy’s dress white when she met the Master the first time?’ lol – but I can understand your point of view and even if we don’t agree I surely appreciate the maturity of your comment. Thanks for sharing your opinion 🙂

I give Angel plenty of criticism for his actions on these boards but Liam has no case to answer here.

Interesting choice of words. If I may ask, why do you feel this is about Angel having to answer a case?

 

[The Bronze]

Interesting choice of words. If I may ask, why do you feel this is about Angel having to answer a case?

If you willingly choose to become a vampire and accept the damage your body is likely to cause to the people left behind then that makes you a pretty terrible person. So when I talk about a case to answer for Liam, all I'm really saying is I don't believe he did anything wrong or had any idea what was going to happen to him. We often have debates on here weighing up the rights and wrongs of peoples actions and choices, so I just mean for me I don't blame Liam at all for him being turned or hold it against Angel. I hold someone like Ford for example in very low regard because he knew what he was doing when he was turned and though his circumstances were sad it still marks him out as an awful person for what he'd willingly put everyone else through for the chance for his body survive.

 

[NightLady]

If you willingly choose to become a vampire and accept the damage your body is likely to cause to the people left behind then that makes you a pretty terrible person. So when I talk about a case to answer for Liam, all I'm really saying is I don't believe he did anything wrong or had any idea what was going to happen to him. We often have debates on here weighing up the rights and wrongs of peoples actions and choices, so I just mean for me I don't blame Liam at all for him being turned or hold it against Angel. I hold someone like Ford for example in very low regard because he knew what he was doing when he was turned and though his circumstances were sad it still marks him out as an awful person for what he'd willingly put everyone else through for the chance for his body survive.

I agree about Ford, of course. But what about Chantarelle (or Anne, as she is named on ATS)? Do you think that she was a terrible person as well?

 

[The Bronze]

I agree about Ford, of course. But what about Chantarelle (or Anne, as she is named on ATS)? Do you think that she was a terrible person as well?

No I think she was naïve and foolish. She had no understanding of vampires, just a romanticised version she'd built up in her head from films and so on. Once she actually saw one she realised what an idiot she had been.

 

[NightLady]

No I think she was naïve and foolish. She had no understanding of vampires, just a romanticised version she'd built up in her head from films and so on. Once she actually saw one she realised what an idiot she had been.

Agreed again. So we have 2 different situation: Ford, who was willing to have Buffy killed just to achieve his purpose and Chantarelle who didn't really know what she was getting into. One a terrible person, the other a foolish one. I was thinking that Liam was more similar to Chantarelle.... Why would you instead consider him a terrible person?

 

[The Bronze]

No I don't consider Liam a terrible person at all. If your reading of the situation is that he was using a similar thought process to Chanterelle and got more than he bargained for then that's fair enough. For me though I can't see anything in that scene that's suggests that Liam fits into either category. I think he is the third option. A completely innocent and unaware victim.

 

[NightLady]

No I don't consider Liam a terrible person at all. If your reading of the situation is that he was using a similar thought process to Chanterelle and got more than he bargained for then that's fair enough. For me though I can see anything in that scene that's suggests that Liam fits into either category. I think he is the third option. A completely innocent and unaware victim.

Sorry, I expressed myself wrong: I didn't mean that you consider Liam a terrible person, it's pretty clear that you don't (and btw I don't either) and that you don't share my belief on the scene. My question was: why would you jump to the conclusion that my saying that Liam had been a willing victim would imply him being a terrible person? Seeing from the two examples of Fred and Chantarelle that it'n not the mere fact of accepting to become a vampire to make someone' bad'....

 

[The Bronze]

Oh I see. I didn't really mean to imply that. It's just that becoming a vampire is accepted as bad thing. If you say that someone willingly chose to become one then by saying that they have a case to answer. It's as you've described they're falling into the foolish or evil options. My reading of Liam not having the knowledge or option to make a choice just means for me he doesn't have to fall into either category. Sorry if I put words in your mouth.