"Lie to Me"

[Carrrrgh]

I just watched the episode Lie To Me and I realized that this was the first moment in Buffy I really started to like Spike. I have seen this episode many times before but I never really cared about Ford in the end and I was already aware that he had been turned and Buffy has to stake him in the last scene. What I just realized this time around is that Spike actually kept his word to Ford, he made a deal with him and since Ford did really make good on his part, Spike actually did the noble thing and gave him what he wanted instead of killing him. He turned him into a vampire!

This is definitely the earliest moment in the series when I can say I started to trust in Spike and realize he is a loyal, trustworthy guy and that he's really not evil, not as evil as he pretends to be anyways.

I'm sure everyone already noticed this moment but how did this make you feel about Spike?

 

[BuffyElevated]

This makes you feel like you can trust Spike?! Because lying about the fact that you need to be in a wheelchair is totally trustworthy, right? LOL

Ok, aside from that this is the moment I really began to feel sympathy for him for having to watch Angelus and Drusilla fawning all over each other. I was like "Aww".

 

[Carrrrgh]

Hahahaha I guess I am too in love with Spike to see his evilness and lies. I thought it was cute when he pretended to be in the wheelchair so Dru and Angelus wouldn't notice that he was plotting an evil evil scheme in order to win his lady back!! That's being very loyal!

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Yes! This episode is incredibly important with regard to developing Spike's character. We already know about his human-like love for Dru, and this ep gives us even more evidence that he has retained much of his humanity since becoming a vampire. He keeps his word--quite an honorable trait for such an evil creature! I've always seen it as one of the first clues Joss & co give us that Spike might someday become a good man.

 

[Icarium]

Hahahaha I guess I am too in love with Spike to see his evilness and lies. I thought it was cute when he pretended to be in the wheelchair so Dru and Angelus wouldn't notice that he was plotting an evil evil scheme in order to win his lady back!! That's being very loyal!

So turning against your allies means you are being loyal?

I've always seen it as one of the first clues Joss & co give us that Spike might someday become a good man.

I really doubt it was an intended clue considering that the plan was to kill off Spike a few episodes later. Not to mention he only kept his word in the most literal sense and pretty much left Ford to be staked. He could have dragged the body somewhere and given Ford a chance to survive, turning him in the manner that Spike did only prolonged Ford's agony a bit (compared to just killing him).

 

[Gum Gnome33]

So turning against your allies means you are being loyal?

I really doubt it was an intended clue considering that the plan was to kill off Spike a few episodes later. Not to mention he only kept his word in the most literal sense and pretty much left Ford to be staked. He could have dragged the body somewhere and given Ford a chance to survive, turning him in the manner that Spike did only prolonged Ford's agony a bit (compared to just killing him).

Yes, Spike was an evil vampire. He didn't care if Ford lived or died. I'm not suggesting that he wanted to help him. I'm suggesting that he had retained some human-like qualities such as the ability to love, (Dru), and placing value in keeping one's word. I understand that it's not a heroic trait nor is it anything to write home about if he were human, (though I do know plenty of humans who surprisingly are not capable of such a simple thing). It was, however, enough to give me an early indication that this character might be different from other monsters. I don't think I'm the only one who noticed it.
I realize that Joss had intended to only keep Spike on for a few more episodes. But I believe that the writers were setting the groundwork for developing this character, if only to use him as an entertaining contrast to the soon-to-be reborn Angelus. My personal opinion.

 

[Marisa]

I think it shows a lot that he kept his word because he could have just killed him and be done with it.

 

[white avenger]

So turning against your allies means you are being loyal?

I seriously doubt that Angelus could be considered as being Spile's ally. Allies don't bully and belittle you in front of the only person who you love, don't call you "Roller-Boy" when you're confined to a wheelchair (and it makes no difference that by that time Spike was only pretending to be crippled, Angelus didn't know that) and blatantly fornicate (certainly no affection was felt by Angelus, and I seriously doubt that using Dru for sex was as desirable as torturing Spike by doing so was) with the person who you consider as being your destiny and salvation.

And as far as allies are concerned, until he actually began working with Buffy of his own free will and not for monetary reward, Spike ever actually had any allies. Minions, yes, but I never got the impression that he considered himself as part of any group, possibly up until he was accepted as a member of Angel's team. Certainly, in the summer before Season 6, Spike fought with the Scoobies, but none of them ever fully trusted him, and in Season 7, after she learned that he had gotten a soul, Buffy trusted Spike implicitly, but none of the rest of her team ever did.

Spike was, from the beginning in Season 2, a more or less solitary figure, with affection and loyalty only to the person who he loved, in that case, Drusilla. He felt nothing but hatred for Angelus, who was, in any case, betraying him with Dru. Plotting with Buffy against the vampires in Season two wasn't betrayal as much as an illustration of the old saying, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend." Buffy was the enemy of Angelus, just as Spike was. Maybe they weren't friends at that point, but the mutual respect that they felt for each other, even back then, was pretty obvious, and I'm sure that both Buffy AND Spike preferred having the other fighting WITH them than AGAINST them.

 

[brinkster130]

What I just realized this time around is that Spike actually kept his word to Ford, he made a deal with him and since Ford did really make good on his part, Spike actually did the noble thing and gave him what he wanted instead of killing him. He turned him into a vampire!

I never thought of it that way at all. I always figured Spike did it to stick it to Buffy. Making her friend a vampire would force her to kill him and would be harder for Buffy than if Spike had killed him.

This is definitely the earliest moment in the series when I can say I started to trust in Spike and realize he is a loyal, trustworthy guy and that he's really not evil, not as evil as he pretends to be anyways.

I'm sure everyone already noticed this moment but how did this make you feel about Spike?

At this point I didn't think Spike was trustworthy at all. He was just looking out for himself. He wanted Dru for himself and he was going to do whatever necessary to get her back.

I do agree that Spike liked to talk a big game about how evil he was.

 

[Icarium]

Spike was, from the beginning in Season 2, a more or less solitary figure, with affection and loyalty only to the person who he loved, in that case, Drusilla. He felt nothing but hatred for Angelus, who was, in any case, betraying him with Dru.

Well then he could have just, you know, left, instead of taking advantage of Angel's protection and Dru's gifts of food, then stabbing them in the back. I am not saying this wasn't the right thing to do under the circumstances but it hardly shows loyalty to anything but Spike's self-interest. Which is a quality that all vampires possess. Spike showed his true colours when he shrugged and left Buffy to fight with Angel all on her own in Becoming, then again when he broke his promise to stay out of Sunnydale only a few episodes later. He later sold out Buffy to Adam. He was about as trustworthy as Harmony which is to be expected since he was lacking a soul.

I never thought of it that way at all. I always figured Spike did it to stick it to Buffy. Making her friend a vampire would force her to kill him and would be harder for Buffy than if Spike had killed him.

Exactly. Keeping one's word doesn't mean a thing in itself. Keeping your world when it's inconvenient for you to do so is the difficult thing to do, doing it when it's in your own interest is quite easy.

 

[The Unspoken]

Spike keeping his word isn't a detriment to the fact that he very much likes to kill and eat people and ergo, not a detriment to his vampiric nature and general evilness. Vampires have never been presented as asocial creatures anyway - even the archaic Master shows quite some affection for the Anointed One.

Also, Spike didn't give Ford 'what he wanted' - Ford wouldn't be Ford anymore once he became a vampire.

 

[Willow My Love]

I always felt like Spike thought he was way more badass that he really was. Yeah, he killed two slayers, yeah, he was William the Bloody, but did WE ever see that? Nope. Not really. We saw Spike try and fail, try and fail, try and fail. That's all we got to see. We didn't see Spike really succeed in anything. Yeah, he found the Gem of Amara, but Buffy got that anyhow! And then Angel smashed it, and Spike failed at getting it back from Angel... He seemed to be the guy who thinks he's awesome, but really has a pocket protector. (I'm gonna get killed for this opinion, aren't I?)

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Hahaha don't worry, I'm a gigantic Spike fan and I sorta agree. I mean, that's part of Spike's charm. He was a monster who *cared* about things: doing things the right way, getting his feeling hurt, falling in love, keeping his word 'cause nobody was gonna call him a liar! That's what makes for an interesting character.

 

[Willow My Love]

How we see him doesn't make sense with his William the Bloody persona. I don't think so, anyhow. I don't think it really meshes well. Maybe that's just me...

 

[Abby27]

I really loved this episode. Halloween, Lie to Me, and The Dark Age are three episodes I almost hold as a mini-3 episode arc.

With Halloween, everyone is turned into something they are not, maybe even something they desire to be: they are masquerading around as something they are not. Also, you get a taste of Ripper, continuing this theme of being something you don't want to be or lying about who you really are.

With Lie to Me, it's obvious that the episode focuses on lieing or holding back the truth from people and builds on it by adding in that the people will not only lie to protect themselves, but also to protect others because as Angel says, "Sometimes, the truth is worse." Willow, Ange, and Xander lieing to Buffy, Ford lieing to Buffy, and Jenny and Giles discussing him not fessing up he was miserable at monster trucks.

And then The Dark Age ties it up nicely with the hidden past coming back to haunt you. Lieing to protect yourself and others won't always work. The truth will come out to bit you every time.

Love this episodes!

 

[white avenger]

We saw Spike try and fail, try and fail, try and fail. That's all we got to see. We didn't see Spike really succeed in anything.

Someone a lot wiser than me once said that the true measure of a man isn't how many times that he wins, but how many times that he fails, AND GETS BACK UP AGAIN. Spike always got up one more time than he got knocked down. Sure, he kept failing to get the Gem of Amara back, but as long as there was any hope of finding it, he never gave up trying.

And as for never succeeding at anything, did you, perhaps, miss the part where he did the absolutely impossible, unthinkable thing by winning his soul back? I would say that was the one "attaboy" that canceled out a whole bunch of "aw, sh*ts." And he never "tried and failed" to end the world. Angel did. Twice. In fact, Spike actually helped to save the world in Seasons 2, 4, 5, 7, and 8. (Okay, granted, twice there, he was working for ulterior motives, getting Dru back in Season 2, and avoiding getting staked by Buffy in Season 4, but, still, ultimately, he was on Buffy's side) whereas, Angel only helped Buffy defeat 2 Big Bads, in Seasons 1 and 3, and I'm not really convinced that the Master in Season 1 actually proposed an immediate end of the world, apocalypse type of threat. Ultimately, he was even successful in something that he had been trying and failing at ever since season 5. He finally got Buffy to admit that she loved him.

And a few other things. After Buffy died in Season 5, Angel went off to Tibet to brood, leaving all of those "helpless" people in LA without the "help" that he was supposed to be providing, while Spike, who had no reason whatsoever to stay in Sunnydale other than a promise to a lady, patrolled the hellmouth and protected Dawn for what could very well have been the rest of Dawn's life, if Buffy hadn't returned.

So, from where I'm sitting, I saw do a lot more than just "try and fail, try and fail, try and fail." I saw him never giving up as long as there was the lightest hope of succeeding. Maybe his methods were questionable at times (and I freely admit, plumb stupid at other times) but Spike's determination is unquestionable.

But maybe I see it that way just because I keep looking at everything through my Spuffy colored glasses.

 

[Carrrrgh]

But maybe I see it that way just because I keep looking at everything through my Spuffy colored glasses.

I love my spuffy colore glasses, I'm never taking them off. And I agree with you 100% about Spike. He stays true to his word, and to me that is HUGE.

 

[white avenger]

"Abby27 agrees: Great post, except Angel leaving for Tibet wasn't bad in my opinion, and I don't think he would have done it necessarily if Wes, Gunn, Cordy, and Fred weren't there to pick up the slack."

***************************************************

If Wes, Gunn, Cordy, and Fred were able to pick up the slack in LA, shouldn't the Scoobies, who were at least as experienced as Wes, Cordy, and Fred, been able to do the same thing in Sunnydale? Still, Spike stayed to keep his promise to Buffy, taking care of Dawn and helping the rest of the gang patrol the hellmouth.

And something that I forgot to mention above, Buffy asked Spike, not Angel, to take care of Dawn if she didn't survive the battle. (Okay, Angel was off in another dimension, rescuing Cordy and Fred, but Buffy didn't know that. Apparently, she never even bothered to check, or at least we never saw or heard her mentioned trying to get in contact with him. I'm not even going to go into her "second front" excuse for sending Angel back home before the battle with the First Evil, except that, as a legitimate excuse, it falls just barely short of the "cookie dough" excuse in its lameness.

 

[Abby27]

"Abby27 agrees: Great post, except Angel leaving for Tibet wasn't bad in my opinion, and I don't think he would have done it necessarily if Wes, Gunn, Cordy, and Fred weren't there to pick up the slack."

***************************************************

If Wes, Gunn, Cordy, and Fred were able to pick up the slack in LA, shouldn't the Scoobies, who were at least as experienced as Wes, Cordy, and Fred, been able to do the same thing in Sunnydale? Still, Spike stayed to keep his promise to Buffy, taking care of Dawn and helping the rest of the gang patrol the hellmouth.

I think Spike stayed specifically because "he made a promise to a girl." I think if Angel had been in the same situation, he would have stayed too. But that doesn't diminish what Spike did: Buffy was gone, he didn't have to stay there and protect Dawn, but he did out of love. Plus, Spike didn't even have a soul, so props to him. Angelus would've just killed everyone.

 

[Taake]

And something that I forgot to mention above, Buffy asked Spike, not Angel, to take care of Dawn if she didn't survive the battle. (Okay, Angel was off in another dimension, rescuing Cordy and Fred, but Buffy didn't know that. Apparently, she never even bothered to check, or at least we never saw or heard her mentioned trying to get in contact with him.

Honest opinion?
*cough cough* different network... different shows... not that much to 'read into'*end cough*