Lilah- Evil Hellwench or Ambitious Feminist Icon?

J

Jill_Valentine

Sacred and Profane
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Lilah gleefully describes herself as evil, but... is she really? She's reasonably unpleasant to know, certainly, but fundamentally evil to boot? None of the stuff she does is wantonly cruel. She's selfish and and amoral, but her actions are all towards an end. She doesn't set schemes in motion just to annoy the crap out of Angel & Co, she does it to support her career. "Nothing personal", as it were (Is that what made Weslah possible?). Is that just an absence of morality rather than "evil" in itself?

Though it's never suggested that Wolfram and Hart aren't Equal Opportunity Employers, (Bless their hearts) there are undertones of Dallas/Thatcherite feminism to Lilah. For some reason, other female employees with the firm don't suggest this so strongly, but Lilah, insane neckscarves and dangerous levels of shoulder pads aside, gives the distinct impression that she could be close friends with some of Glenn Close's most memorable characters.

While it's arguable that she has no conscience at all, Lilah's repeated declarations that ruthless self reliance is totally necessary suggest to me that she's learned this stuff the hard way. She's conditioned herself to be remorseless, because she considers it necessary to success, and she seems to pick up on potential for this in Faith. She's not like Lindsey, we never see her wrestle with her conscience about what she does, but she also feels the need, on occassion to justify herself - to Cordelia, of all people. Of all the human characters in the Buffyverse, I think Lilah's the least likely to even consider doing somebody a decent turn, but is she "evil" in the same way as, for example, Ethan Rayne or Richard Wilkins?
 
I never considered Lilah to be evil, rather than doing her job.. which could be considered evil since her job is working at an evil law firm but I don't think that automatically makes her evil. She doesn't do the things she does to be evil, she does them 'cause it's her job, and she just doesn't question it or care about good/evil, she kind of understands that it's just two sides of the same thing and she happens to be on one of the sides. In the beginning I didn't much care for Lilah but as I watched the show I started really liking her as a character, or find her interesting. I still haven't seen enough of her/seen her episodes enough times to have a real opinion though..
 
I disagree. I think she's one of the most evil characters in either show. She's evil in the most despicable human way. It's even worse than soulless demon evil. She's human, she has a conscience she chooses to ignore. You might say she's a traitor to humanity. Ultimately she doen't even care about Wolfram& Hart, only herself. Same with that Ethan Rayne guy, despicable human evil.

That being said, Lilah had moments of conscience, humor, compassion. She's one of my favorite characters in the Buffyverse
 
If Lilah discovered that being rich and successful was possible through good deeds instead, and set about doing good things as vigorously as she does evil ones, could she then be considered "good"?
 
Not in my opinion, no.. heh. It might count as something "better" but what does that really say..? The "traitor to humanity" thing though, is kind of interesting but really depends on what you consider to be "humanity".. To me Lilah felt way more human than Ethan Rayne or Richard Wilkins though.. And I have a hard time accepting/believing that humans can be really "evil" (but this is whedonverse and yeah, I have kind of accepted it, lol). But at the same time she was colder and "less connected" to her "human sides", sort of.. I think that's the reason why she seems evil, it's not that she doesn't care, really, it just doesn't work to way to her.. I'd like to see what the world looks like in her eyes, heh..
 
Wouldn't say evil in typical wicked way. Her goal was never killing and chaos. She was simply put a very egocentric person, what mattered to her was herself. Evil and good don't really apply to that type of persons (not from their perspective anyway), but personally I would put them in the evil compartment.

About the feminst thing. There is nothing feministic about being egocentric and in a way I think that Lilah is one of those type of characters that makes people see feminism as something it's not. It's about equality not "strong" women that do anything to achieve personal success and get rich.
 
E
eponinethen
I guess it's kind of like with the evil. She isn't a feminist really, but since she does the things she does (whatever her reasons are), you could think she was one.
Oh thanks, you're saying almost exactly what I was trying but not succeeding to say, heh. I do get the strong woman/feminism thing though. Although she might not have been a "true feminist", in the way that she fought for women's rights or women at all.. she can still be a sort of feministic image person thing just 'cause she is such a strong woman and all fighting in the world of mostly men, but yeah I know what you mean and maybe she'd been more of a feminist icon if this wasn't now but earlier in history or whatever.. since successful women aren't that unusual these days...
 
I do love these philosophical morality debates. I think most of us really like Lilah. Like I said, she's one of my favorites. She's very smart, witty, ambitious, good fashion sense. Is she a feminst? Maybe. Seems like she's too concerned with herself to be concerned about the plight of women in general. I think she's happy feminism is around 'cause she sees it as one more tool to exploit in her quest for power. Is she evil? Or is she just amoral. Maybe she has no morality, sees all beings as essentially the same: human, demon, whatever. I think at the very least I'd say she's incredibly selfish. Maybe she sees the apocalypse as inevitable. And she wants to get in good with the Partners 'cause she loves power and all her pretty things.

I can't quite escape the treason idea though. Something like an average German during WW2. Sees the Jews being shipped off. Sees the Nazis rising to power. "OK, this is inevitable, I'm gonna keep my mouth shut. I love my comfy lifestyle and pretty things. Don't want that to change. I'll get in good with these Nazi bastards, ignore the Jews, 'cause the Third Riech is inevitably going to rule Europe" That's selfish, cowardly, if not downright evil. I'm not saying it wouldn't take tremendous courage to resist either. I don't know if I could. Maybe I'd chicken out and be a selfish coward too.

Can humans be evil? Was Hitler evil? Pol Pot? I'd say yes, by my personal definition. Or were they just mentally disturbed? Like they say serial killers actually have a different brain structure than normal folks. Something, just a little something not quite right, since birth. So should they be judged for their actions?

About the feminism thing. If Lilah truly is a personification of feminism, then I don't think I'd want to meet feminism in a dark alley. Seems like her feminism is like a sexual version of pure, ruthless capitalism. Survival of the fittest. Not "I can do anything a man can do, equally well, if not better". More like, "I can be as vicious, callous and selfish as any of my clueless male counterparts, and I can do it smarter". Kind of a perversion of what I would hope feminism aspires to.
 
J
Jill_Valentine
Nicely explored.
What I mean about Lilah being a feminist icon...

Nobody in their right mind would openly claim that Lilah Morgan is an admirable role model. But in practice? Lilah's smart, determined, resourceful and cunning. She never surrenders her independence, but she's not above using her feminine charms to overcome problems. She's learned to treat other people as either obstacles or stepping stones. It's no coincidence that she also happens to be one of the few females who's survived to the higher levels of Wolfram and Hart. She even managed to survive several seasons of the show, which seems to have "kill off all the women!" built into it's premise. 😀 She is, in short, successful, more successful than many men in the company, and far more successful than most women. Why does she succeed while other women don't?

The reason I specifically mentioned 80's style feminism is that the perception of what feminism meant was slightly different then. The high end of the economy had suddenly shifted from labour based jobs to office based ones, and suddenly men had to recognise that women might take equal control of the workplace. The only obstacle was office politics. Men socialised with men, men related to men, men promoted men. The old glass ceiling. For the first time, the number of women in law school outnumbered men, but women were still finding themselves paid less for the same amount of work. While getting into the corporate workplace was not a problem, women found that the only way to progress with their male counterparts was by working twice as hard. Being twice as ruthless. As Goldenboy said, being as vicious, callous and selfish as any male counterparts, and doing it smarter. So while we now understand feminism as furthering the cause of women's equality, Eighties-Flavoured feminism represents the concept of having to be superior just to be treated equally.

Lilah's not a very good person, no. But doesn't she embody one gender's American dream? Pure, ruthless capitalism? If Anya had a law degree...
 
goldenboy said:
Can humans be evil? Was Hitler evil? Pol Pot? I'd say yes, by my personal definition.
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I know I'll get sh*t for saying this, I have before, but I don't think Hitler was evil. Just like I don't think Lilah was evil. And I don't think you could really compare Lilah with Hitler either but I understand what you're saying. As I see it there are always another reason than "evil", there's always something else and saying that someone is evil is making things way more simple than they are, as I see it (and if you define evil the way I do). But, this is me talking about the Real World, and I have accepted that whedonverse is slightly different in that way, hehe. So I could probably accept that a human can be evil, like perhaps Ethan Rayne, who seems to be there only to do evil and make life hard for others. But even if I accept evil, Lilah isn't evil to me. Since I can understand her reasons. She might have a weird or no sense of morality.. and she might prioritize weird stuff but I can still see why she does the things she does and so on and to me that makes her more human than pure evil people/characters/creatures...
Well, goldenboy, I agree with what you're saying and it sounds cool and all I just don't believe in the evil-thing..
 
I think I understand what you're saying about "evil" eponinethen. Something like, actions are "evil", not people, right? Their behavior causes good or bad things to happen in the world. Or correct me if I'm wrong there.


Now, here's some feminism for ya:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050307/481/kuw10203071415


Yeah, baby!



Another thing. I've got an old World Book Encyclopedia set, published in 1972. Under the entry "Hitler", the opening line is "Adolf Hitler was one of the most evil men of the 20th century. Not even "evil" in quotes or anything, just evil. I doubt you'd see something like that in a modern encyclopedia, don't know.

It's interesting how traditional belief systems, "absolutist" judgement systems are slipping away in this postmodern world of ours.
 
E
eponinethen
Yeah that's pretty much how I think of "evil", but I could get into a discussion about whether or not actions can be evil but yeah.. I won't...
And I have a hard time accepting/believing that humans can be really "evil" (but this is whedonverse and yeah, I have kind of accepted it, lol).
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I don't. All you have to do is study world history. One would immediately realize how evil humans can be.
 
Um, yeah, to me it doesn't work that way. Hm, I've discussed this so many times.. If you are seriously interested I think I've posted most of my opinions about that here in this thread..

But no, I don't think all you have to do is study world history. I'm not saying I know everything about all history and stuff but I think I know enough to understand what sorts of things you are talking about. But to me that doesn't mean humans can be evil. At all. goldenboy explained the short version of what I believe, in his last post..
 
eponinethen said:
Um, yeah, to me it doesn't work that way. Hm, I've discussed this so many times.. If you are seriously interested I think I've posted most of my opinions about that here in this thread..

But no, I don't think all you have to do is study world history. I'm not saying I know everything about all history and stuff but I think I know enough to understand what sorts of things you are talking about. But to me that doesn't mean humans can be evil. At all. goldenboy explained the short version of what I believe, in his last post..
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I get the feeling that human beings do not want to face the fact that they are capable of great evil. Is that why they prefer shows that paint humans in such a positive light by using supernatural beings and aliens as contrasts?
 
Well, BtVS don't do that do they? And I am most definitely a huge BtVS fan.
And I disagree about the "not wanting to face" thing. To me, saying that a human can be evil, is making things simple. If someone's evil, they are incapable of not doing evil. It's not really their fault. Or do you mean that they choose to be evil and therefor are? To me, saying that Hitler (or whoever) was evil, is really dangerous. Deviding humans into good and evil.. is dangerous. Saying that we all can make the "wrong" decisions and that we are all capable of doing cruel things, on the other hand, that makes us cautious.. and aware.. Which I believe is very important in order to make sure that something like the holocaust never happens again.
 
I agree that calling somebody "Evil" is frequently used to oversimplify a complex problem.

The Buffyverse is slightly different though. It has Demon-Evil and Human-Evil. Demon-Evil characters are little better than animals, and need to be exterminated to defend humanity. Human-Evil... well, in Buffy that's generally easier to define. Ford and Faith aside, generally you can consider anybody who opposes the Scoobies to be shifty no-gooders. In Angel, it's deliberately made more difficult to make that distinction.

Let's assume that... say, Holland Manners is the ultimate Human-evil example. He's sold his soul to W&H, he acts without consulting a conscience first and he seems to get a kick out of pitting his lackeys against each other. Lilah is further down the scale because she doesn't seem to enjoy what she does. Do ATS consider her an active enemy or just a pain in the ass? I know Fred would probably have beaten her to a meaty pulp and buried her in the desert, but...
 
Yea I always got the impression that the Angel gang saw Lilah as some what a joke, no matter how dangerous she was to them or how much she ruined things for them. Since she was never the one in charge, and some how I'm thinking that has got something to do with the "fact" (my opinion so not fact but yeah whatever) that she wasn't the truly evil one.
Yeah, so as I said I've accepted that humans can be evil in this reality but I'm still not.. really sure cause.. Yeah, you mention Holland Manners. And I agree with you about him but can you call a person, who has sold their soul to W&H, 100% human? Since the whole W&H thing feels.. not extremely human no.. I mean are you completely human if you have more or less lost you "human sides" and joined in with the forces of.. W&H..?
 
I don't think that Lilah is evil, exactly... You really can't classify her as evil, if she's doing her job. The thing that I noticed most, was she followed orders exactly like she should (things obviously not always turning out), but she also helped Angel out, and that was her own doing... It's my opinion that people cannot be evil, as long as they have a soul, because sure, they do evil things, but they still have reservations and acts of kindness somewhere in their lifetimes. I'm not condoning anything that "evil" people do as being right, or even less evil, just that they were either doing their job, or actually felt that their idea was what was right, in the case of Hitler, who I believe was more insane than evil. It doesn't mean that I think that the "extinction" of all races but your own is right, that was just his vision. I think in order to be purely evil, you have to, not only KNOW what you are doing is purely wrong, but have absolutely no convictions about doing it.


:evil: <---- That guy's evil!
 
Let me put it this way - humans are capable of indulging in the darker side of their nature, whether they are being petty, spiteful, manipulative, allowing their fear to control them, or committing crimes like murder, rape, torture and/or robbery. They're all capable of this and more. At the same time, they are capable of committing admirable deeds.


The Buffyverse is slightly different though. It has Demon-Evil and Human-Evil. Demon-Evil characters are little better than animals, and need to be exterminated to defend humanity. Human-Evil... well, in Buffy that's generally easier to define.
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This sounds like a scenario that belongs on CHARMED and not in the BUFFYVERSE.
 
I guess maybe it all comes down to free will, right? If you have freedom of thought and action, you're sentient, you can make conscious decisions. Maybe I'd argue that humans aren't good or evil, "bad", if you prefer. Yet they can act for the good or act for the bad. For something to do "evil", something must have consciousness and free will to act. We don't consider a hurricane evil.

Therefore, Buffyverse demons are at least a little more than animals, they would have to have something like free will, as humans do. Yet they don't share human morality. Spike managed, with the help of a chip early on and "love" for Buffy to deny his "urge" to do evil. Maybe demons are like animals on the verge of consciousness, the verge of being human and recognizing a morality. Maybe love for Buffy pushed Spike towards humanity, towards full free will and sentience.
 
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