Loathed And Dispised?

[white avenger]

"This sort of behavior is exactly the reason why ( Spike/Buffy ) shippers are loathed and despised."

The above is a quote from another thread that I would like to question.

How many people here agree with this statement, and, if you would care to elaborate, why? And please note, it is not the ship that is loathed and despised, it is the shippers in question, and, I assume by the use of the parentheses surrounding Spike/Buffy that the implication here is all, or at least several, different ships are referred to. It's one thing to disapprove of the actions of a particular character or coupling, and to have a more or less friendly discussion about the merits or failings of that character or coupling, but I was under the impression that everyone here was entitled to their own opinion and, as long as a reasonable amount of civility was observed, were free to express those opinions.

Call me thin skinned if you care to, and within that same thread, another member of this board was accused of that because they chose to withdraw from the discussion, but I find this sort of thing offensive and insulting on a forum that I have enjoyed participating in for several years now, where I have until recently enjoyed a friendly atmosphere, where we could discuss the merits and failings of assorted elements of the Buffyverse, as well as a variety of other issues.

I would truly hate to think that the Buffy Boards has deteriorated to this level.

 

[Xin Rong]

I personally think all shippers are a little crazy, but the good kind of crazy. I'd say I'm more Bangel, but in general I don't care that much, for me it's such a none issue who Buffy should be with Angel or Spike that I tend not to get riled about it.

But, from my observations, it comes from all sides, every ship has it's hardcore advocates who make comments like the one above, although I think it was harsh, I think you should maybe give a more context to the comment, it was in the middle of a rather heated debate with someone, but the issue wasn't Spuffy, it was that the Spuffy person was constantly making random arguments based on no fact, telling other people that facts were opinions and writing generally condescending comments i.e. it was a comment fueled in the midst of a heated debate.

I think the boards are a friendly place, and every now and again people are going to feel offended or get annoyed when other people disagree with them in passionate debates, the intolerance you refer to above though, IMO was an intolerance of stupidity and the user it referred just happened to be a Spuffy, so it is wrong to blame all Spuffy's for one persons mistake, but I do think it was somewhat understandable in its context.

 

[white avenger]

I personally think all shippers are a little crazy, but the good kind of crazy. I'd say I'm more Bangel, but in general I don't care that much, for me it's such a none issue who Buffy should be with Angel or Spike that I tend not to get riled about it.

But, from my observations, it comes from all sides, every ship has it's hardcore advocates who make comments like the one above, although I think it was harsh, I think you should maybe give a more context to the comment, it was in the middle of a rather heated debate with someone, but the issue wasn't Spuffy, it was that the Spuffy person was constantly making random arguments based on no fact, telling other people that facts were opinions and writing generally condescending comments i.e. it was a comment fueled in the midst of a heated debate.

I think the boards are a friendly place, and every now and again people are going to feel offended or get annoyed when other people disagree with them in passionate debates, the intolerance you refer to above though, IMO was an intolerance of stupidity and the user it referred just happened to be a Spuffy, so it is wrong to blame all Spuffy's for one persons mistake, but I do think it was somewhat understandable in its context.

I can understand debating, heated or otherwise, and I do understand that some people tend to sometimes cross over the line of civility in their enthusiasm to defend the subject of their discussion, be it anything from ships to politics. My objection is to the terms "hated" and "despised" when used by one member to describe another person or group. I have been rebuked for the use of so simple a phrase as "gets the girl," which I, and I have no doubt quite a few of the members here have heard and possibly used all of their lives. If something as simple and unintentionally offensive deserved the objection of not one, but several, members, then "hated and despised" in reference to members here, or even a single member, should be at least as offensive, if not more so, and even if I am the only one who sees that, I do still feel compelled to express that objection.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I totally agree with the statement, though maybe 'loathed and despised' is a bit strong.

But I do agree with the idea of the statement. Why I think it's true is that having a debate with a shipper can be annoying as the argument is skewed, it comes from a certain level of bias that is incredibly annoying to deal with.

When I watched the show, I didn't like Spike, I didn't mind him as much in season 4,5 and 6, he was just a character I didn't care for, I was annoyed in season 7 when he got so much screentime though, but that was pretty much thought I gave him, I never considered him a contender for one of Buffys big loves honestly.

I only grew to hate Spike after the show was done and I had started discussing it online, happened in two ways, first was being backed up and backing up people that also didn't like Spike, which tends to point out his many flaws and cement what you already thought, secondly was, to have the people you are debating against be, at times, delusional you end up projecting that onto the character.
In my experience from debating the issue many times since I joined the boards a million years ago, the most frustrating fan to have a discussion with is a Spike/Buffy fan. Mainly becasue, and again I say IN MY EXPERIENCE they tend to be Spuffy fans, rather than a Buffy fan or a Spike fan (I realise it doesn't apply to all, just many I've encountered, so no need for anyone to go about pointing out they like one or the other)
The main reason that is annoying is becasue the majority of the time Buffy and Spike have together on the show is horrible and destructive and isn't good for either character as their own character, and it's hard to understand someone wanting two characters to be together so badly that it's okay to see the main character using another character, while being dragged down to a lower level and abused.
And I know I'll probably get a load of "but it was beautiful in season 7", which I can agree it was totally different in season 7, but thats part of the annoyance of arguing with a Spuffy shipper, they'll say but look how nice it is in season 7, but they'll still use examples from the previous seasons.

One of the biggest annoyances is the disregarding, or fanwanking of cannon, making excuses for a character to forgive or "prove" how canon is wrong, is one of the stupidest arguments someone can make. And again it's something I have primarily seen with Spike/Buffy fans, it drives me nuts when people say Angel gets a 'get out of jail free card' with him and Angelus, it's a stupid point, it's literally the canon of the show, so it's not a 'free pass', it is also incorrect as it is the complete opposite of the entire premise of Angel.
If someone makes up an excuse for a character based on them being their favourite ship, that can't be backed up in canon, I always dismiss their point in the head and usually carry that around to their other posts, is someone can't back something up in canon it shouldn't be given as a viable option.
Shippers tend to be overzealous in way that doesn't happen outside of shipping. Again FOR ME, it's something I only really see with Spike/Buffy, other fans of Willow/Tara and Buffy/Angel seem to admit when the character does something wrong, but Spike seems to do no wrong, even to the point of defending an attempted rape.

Another reason I'd say people hating arguing with Shippers, is that they always make the arguments a shipping war. You make an anti-Spike post and you're instantly a bangel. I've always felt more pushed into being pro Buffy/Angel than I actually am, I hate Spike more than I like Buffy/Angel, I think Spike is an absolute dreg of a character and I hate seeing Buffy with her.

 

[Kean]

If this is an issue about what one particular member has said, perhaps taking it up with that member in private is better than involving the entire board on a topic that really can be nothing but exasperating to discuss and uncomfortable and/or upsetting for other members to read.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

I can understand debating, heated or otherwise, and I do understand that some people tend to sometimes cross over the line of civility in their enthusiasm to defend the subject of their discussion, be it anything from ships to politics. My objection is to the terms "hated" and "despised" when used by one member to describe another person or group. I have been rebuked for the use of so simple a phrase as "gets the girl," which I, and I have no doubt quite a few of the members here have heard and possibly used all of their lives. If something as simple and unintentionally offensive deserved the objection of not one, but several, members, then "hated and despised" in reference to members here, or even a single member, should be at least as offensive, if not more so, and even if I am the only one who sees that, I do still feel compelled to express that objection.

I think I misread your initial intention, I thought you wanted to discuss how shippers debate, but if all you want to do is call out another member you can report them you don't need to call out a member publicly.
This thread wont be a discussion of how one member talked to another in a thread on the boards, we can discuss how shippers debate, but anything directly relating to that quote above can be reported directly to one of us.

 

[ladydorotea]

I think to say 'loathed and despised' when addressing a live person online is not appropriate, although I have seen much of behavior that is pretty annoying among all factions of shippers. And I have to agree with another poster at being pushed to more aggressive shipping/ character loathing only and because of the online fandom. The same happened to me. I am actually wondering if anybody is making a scientific study of shipper behavior and how it affects the dynamics within various fandoms. 🙂 Because truly, I have a feeling that at some point many loose all interest in the story itself and hang around the forums, other online resources for the pure sport ( or seeing the other side humiliated ). Sheer madness, but addictive. I believe this kind of behavior is also present in fans of competitive sports and - of course ! - politics.

 

[Xin Rong]

I think to say 'loathed and despised' when addressing a live person online is not appropriate, although I have seen much of behavior that is pretty annoying among all factions of shippers. And I have to agree with another poster at being pushed to more aggressive shipping/ character loathing only and because of the online fandom. The same happened to me. I am actually wondering if anybody is making a scientific study of shipper behavior and how it affects the dynamics within various fandoms. 🙂 Because truly, I have a feeling that at some point many loose all interest in the story itself and hang around the forums, other online resources for the pure sport ( or seeing the other side humiliated ). Sheer madness, but addictive. I believe this kind of behavior is also present in fans of competitive sports and - of course ! - politics.

Look at vampire diaries, that show's only point now is to antagonise Stefan/Illayna and Damon/Illayna fans, and it'll probably last for years because of that point. At least with Buffy and Angel, the min shipper arguments postdate the shows, so we can comfort ourselves with knowing that we love a show not based on shipping 🙂

 

[thetopher]

One quote doesn't really mean anything. It's entirely subjective.

I was actually a part of the thread you're refering to and while I think the poster was out of line with such a nasty, insensitive and quite frankly incorrect assertion, I do think the poster who withdrew was being oversensitive when it came to other posters.

They withdrew simply because people disagreed with their argument and wishing to question why they held it. The poster refused to eloborate and so departed.

I myself have been in a fair few heated discussions on this site, I welcome other people's point of view but am also not afraid of saying I disagree with them about something.
I like Spike about half of the time he's on the show, and loathe him for the other half. That other half is mainly Spuffy stuff, but my feelings are limited to the ship, not fans of the ship.
That kind of anger towards strangers baffle me.

But I do agree with what some have said in that a lot of my irritation with Spike comes from his fans who constantly try and nominate him for saint-hood and/or make excuses for all the abhorant crap he pulls. 😡

But, bottom line, no person/group should be singled out for vitriole.

 

[Blaze]

Well I've been pretty absent from the board lately, in combination with a bad memory, well I have no clue what were talking about.

But to answer to the quote directly, it does hurt a bit when I read comments like that. As someone that does like Spuffy (they are not my favorite, by I like them), I'll often be disregarded in my opinions just because of it. Spuffy is by far the ship that gets attacked the most, and I don't mind that, but there really is no need to bring that on a personal level. I'll always enjoy a good discussion, but there's no need to attack the shipper, to me it should always be about the ship. Wanna make an argument, do it about the ship, not the person. In that case I'm open to any debate.

As a side-note, I replied because I wanted to reply to what the quote said, but I don't think there is any need to point fingers at anyone. This should be a constructive thread, not one to criticize others. Respect goes both ways.

 

[brinkster130]

I don't loath or despise anyone because of their shipping preferences, some of my favorite posters here like different couples than I do, but I do see how engaging in debates that always come back to shipping wars is annoying.

Personally, I thought that comment was directed more at the manner in which the debate was going rather than an entire group. Like they hate that you can use your shipping preferences to excuse anything and not actually debate the show.

 

[Evil Angelus 95]

I don't loathe or hate anyone, and to be honest, I think that people judging an entire group of people like that is a little asinine.

I'm a huge Willow/Tara shipper. I can admit that Willow has done wrong things in the relationship. I don't use the ship as an excuse for her actions. Some people do exactly that however. It's all based on the person, not the ship. It's true with any ship.

I honestly don't know how to word what I'm thinking right now. I guess in short, we should all be civilized enough here that we're not insulting each other in some ways that I've seen lately.

 

[Silverspike]

As a few of you are more then aware said remark was directed at me on another thread, which apart from being (well I thought anyway) rather harsh is inaccurate because I don't ship just Spuffy, in fact my main ship interest is Spangel and other slash parings.

I held a view and didn't back it up with anything apart from my own gut feeling which seemed to enrage some folks even more, but as I said at the time It was just my opinion which I wasn't trying to foster onto anyone else. I just hadn't the time nor desire to trawl through tons of episodes to put a case together to back it up. It was just my take on it, thats all. I didn't expect the spanish inquisition. 😀

There are lots hard core shippers for all sorts of ships (Bangel 'warriors' included) and so I personally think picking out just one group rather daft. I mean "loathing and despising" Really? It's just a work of fiction after all, nothing to get that worked up about imo.

But then as I also said in another thread I try not to get my hate on for other peoples shipping preferences or likes. I mean why can't folks just live and let live when it comes to fandom? Makes for a much nicer environment imo. 🙂

 

[Robb Stark]

Singling out a group like that is kind of dumb, but as others have said, the quote is out of context. I wasn't aware of any dispute going on, I haven't been at all active in that thread, but I looked it up and the direction of the debate was hardly an anti-Spuffy thing. That line was clearly said in annoyance, and while that's not right or anything, it isn't representative either.

What's my take? I think that shippers, on both sides of the great Buffy coin, get incredibly oversensitive, primarily because we've all been sniping at one another for it for far too long. I've been in heated shipping debates with both you and @black eyed guy (the two, I hope you guys won't be offended by saying, who get into it the most around here), and I've been frustrated by both of you at times. In turn I've sniped as well, and that just drives the cycle.

Is it "worse" for one ship' as opposed to another? I don't think so. I think that largely depends on the preference makeup of the forum in question. Lately, there have been a lot more vocally present Bangel fans (or at least, anti-Spike fans), and that causes more of a slant against Spuffy. Go to other forums and I'm sure the talk would be in reverse, a more anti-Bangel feeling with more people around who prefer Spuffy.

All I can speak for truly is what I've seen here, as this is the only BTVS forum I've ever been to. It depends on the person of course, but there have been a few high-profile incidents here over the last several months which have resulted in one side arguing very logically and the other side getting just plain hysterical. They just happened to be Spuffy-fans who got that way. I don't think that's representative though. As I said, I believe it's largely all in where you stand.

I WILL say however, and I'm sure I'll get jumped on for this, that I've found a few of the harder-core Spuffy shippers here to be very, very quick to sense a slight (and no, it's not a one-way street), real or imagined. Few things on this Board get me to roll my eyes quicker than when a debate completely about Spike degenerates into name-calling about Angel, when the discussion has absolutely zero to with Angel. "Oh yeah, well Angel did this, this and this, and that's WAY worse" is not intelligent arguing to me. And yes, it cuts both ways; the people who frequently drag Spike into threads that have nothing to do with him are the same boat. I just tend to see it more with anti-Angel people, that's all. And yes, the "free-pass" comments do annoy me, simply because they aren't supported by anything and go against the entire premise of the AtS series.

I will say though, that for those who haven't visited a Game of Thrones forum, stay far away lol. You think Angel/Spike debates get heated? You guys have no idea how strongly some people feel about Stannis...

 

[white avenger]

Apparently, some board members have gotten the impression that my objections here are based on ship affiliations, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not defending any ship or any topic here. If that was the impression that I gave, that I was defending a fellow Spuffy from attack by some nasty ol' Bangels, please let me assure everyone here that I would have been just as quick to object if the situation had been reversed. I don't have to support any particular point of view on any subject to see something like this as wrong.

 

[The Bronze]

I've just had a browse through the other thread since I missed it. I don't think there was any harm intended. Maybe some people's posts should come with a sensitivity warning! 🙂 I personally enjoy the contributions of the poster in question, I think their style adds some spice to the board. I don't think things like that should be taking too seriously and certainly not personally.

 

[white avenger]

I personally enjoy the contributions of the poster in question, I think their style adds some spice to the board.

I guess that I'm one of those folks who prefer a little less spice and a little more sugar, or at least a better balance between the two.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Apparently, some board members have gotten the impression that my objections here are based on ship affiliations, and that couldn't be further from the truth. I'm not defending any ship or any topic here. If that was the impression that I gave, that I was defending a fellow Spuffy from attack by some nasty ol' Bangels, please let me assure everyone here that I would have been just as quick to object if the situation had been reversed. I don't have to support any particular point of view on any subject to see something like this as wrong.

I've seen worse in the reverse from an old spuffy fan who is no longer here, and there was no coming to my defence.
Also you can't really complain about someone else being "picked" on while calling the people "attacking" "nastly ol' bangels", and while I'm sure that was a joke, you joke like that a lot, so at what point is it not a joke any more? An adopt a bangel campaign? calling them "nastly bangels"? - thats why I see no problem with what was said, it's no different than whatever else is said.
It's also worth pointing out one of my points about being irritated by spuffy shippers, is you can't say something negative about Spike without being labelled a bangel, which the person you are quoting isn't. So the person being "picked" on wasn't being picked on for being a spuffy by a bangel, it's becasue they weren't being logical.

Is it "worse" for one ship' as opposed to another? I don't think so. I think that largely depends on the preference makeup of the forum in question. Lately, there have been a lot more vocally present Bangel fans (or at least, anti-Spike fans), and that causes more of a slant against Spuffy. Go to other forums and I'm sure the talk would be in reverse, a more anti-Bangel feeling with more people around who prefer Spuffy.

This is a great point, for some reason lately there has been a lot more vocal Buffy/Angel fans, for a long time before that this boards was predominately vocal Spike/Buffy fans.
This forum had an ongoing running gag, thats still supported in sigs, about adopting bangels to correct their points of views, disguised in the tone of a joke, that is equally offensive.

 

[thetopher]

That is a good point, I don't see a thread anywhere complaining about a Bangel being 'attacked' by one lone poster.
But really it shouldn't boil down to 'ships.

I think lots of people are in agreement here, some people could moderate their comments more and others could be a little more thick-skinned.
Some arguments can get pretty heated as the back-and-forth gets going, its best not to take it personally (especially since the comment was directed at a group, not at the individual.)

 

[white avenger]

I've seen worse in the reverse from an old spuffy fan who is no longer here, and there was no coming to my defence.
Also you can't really complain about someone else being "picked" on while calling the people "attacking" "nastly ol' bangels", and while I'm sure that was a joke, you joke like that a lot, so at what point is it not a joke any more? An adopt a bangel campaign? calling them "nastly bangels"? - thats why I see no problem with what was said, it's no different than whatever else is said.
It's also worth pointing out one of my points about being irritated by spuffy shippers, is you can't say something negative about Spike without being labelled a bangel, which the person you are quoting isn't. So the person being "picked" on wasn't being picked on for being a spuffy by a bangel, it's becasue they weren't being logical.




This is a great point, for some reason lately there has been a lot more vocal Buffy/Angel fans, for a long time before that this boards was predominately vocal Spike/Buffy fans.
This forum had an ongoing running gag, thats still supported in sigs, about adopting bangels to correct their points of views, disguised in the tone of a joke, that is equally offensive.

BEG-- I fail to see how being illogical qualifies someone to be hated and loathed. Also, jokingly referring to Bangels being nasty is, in my opinion, far less offensive that saying that an entire ship supporting group is hated and loathed, but if you consider it to be inappropriate, then please accept my most humble apologies and rest assured that I will never refer to Bangels as either nasty or old again. On the other hand, if you would like to refer to me as a nasty old Spuffy, due to my age and ship affiliations, I will accept it as merely a statement of fact (I'll let the nasty part slide) Also, as I said, I was NOT defending some nameless Spuffy from the aforementioned (adjectives deleted) Bangles. My meaning might not have been clear there, but in a later post I clarified that I was not defending any particular shipper against any other shipper. I was objecting to one board member speaking to another board member in such a fashion. And for that, I offer no apologies whatsoever.

The same goes, I believe, for the offer to adopt Bangels. That is in no way saying that Bangels are hated and loathed. The same goes, I assume, for those who offered to Save A Spuffy, but I can't, of course, speak for them. Also, if the phrase, "Friends Don't Let Friends Ship Bangel" is offensive,I will be happy to change it to "There's No Place For Hatred Or Loathing On The Buffy Boards." (I may wind up asking for help in changing the darn thing, since I honestly can't remember how i got it on there in the first place)

As for the former predominance of Spuffy shippers earlier and the new majority of Bangles, vocal or otherwise, for that, also, I hope that you will accept my most humble apologies.