Losing David Greenwalt was that BtVS biggest loss ?

[NotASlayer]

• Not realizing Sarah was unhappy.
• Not realizing that Tony Head was unhappy.

I wonder if that is less not realising and more, through arrogance, not caring what the actors felt. Punishing actors, which it seems Joss did in both those cases, would suggest more the latter than the former.

 

[Btvs fan]

Probably a coincidence; S4's structure was hit with not only Seth Green wanting to leave but also having to write out Maggie Walsh's 'Big Bad' character. The latter was actually harder since the entire structure of the Initiative heavy plot structure of the latter part of the season had to be mostly re-written.
So basically Maggie gets stabbed, the Initiative collapses, the hulking big monster escapes but mainly just plots from the shadows whilst Buffy deals with side things like Faith and Jonathan.




Hey. Hey, leave Doug alone, he's much more than a Riley fan-boy, he's a Fuffy cheerleader.

And overrated? He wrote some of the strongest episodes of S3, and he was much better at handling chunky, twisty, plot-heavy episodes than most other writers. S4's best Initiative episode ('The Initiative') is his, and its so much better than 'The I In Team', 'Goodbye Iowa' or 'Primeval'.
His 'The Yoko Factor' is also a strong character episode that pays off most the Scoobie seasonal-arc stuff.



I think @NoShip got it right, Greenwalt was more the push against Joss' writing excesses and also listened to/balanced the needs of the networks and actors and many other voices. With him gone any idea of a show bible began to fall apart, the consistent character tone slowly eroded- by S6 and 7 it feel like a very different show than previously- and writers became more self-indulgent towards 'their character'; this is most evident with Spike, not Riley. 😉

It was Joss Whedon's choice to kill off Maggie, not LC leaving. As for Seth leaving, he left because he was tired of doing nothing. The whole Verucca storyline was a dogged bullet.

Apart from Jane Espenson who was a self confessed Spuffy shipper that's not true. Joss was not a fan of Spike but recognised he was popular bur that's not the same thing.
Listen to the FFL DVD Commentary, Spike is literally an after thought to Riley "he's just so cool" listening to Doug Petrie
Riley was literally named after Martis dog and Xanders he's the guy who comes along once in a life time is all her.

Post automatically merged: Aug 27, 2025

A lot of stuff happened in season 4 and beyond that can be explained by poor management.

• Not realizing Seth Green was unhappy and only signed for six episodes
• Signing Lindsay to play Maggie for an entire season, but running out of things for her to do by mid point.
• Keeping two actors under contract, but making a plot out of not having anything to do with them.
• Not realizing Sarah was unhappy.
• Not realizing that Tony Head was unhappy.
• Not telling the WB that Willow was gay.
• Unintentionally creating main cast members from guest stars due to union rules.
• Realizing Actors were unhappy and using it against them.

Now, I think a lot of these problems can be explained by the nature of season 4, like spending a month on Faith & Buffy's relationship when you should have been building towards the finale, or are acceptable trade off, like having to explain that finale and the "coda" are two different concepts. But yes, a lot of the things listed above would have probably been avoided if Joss was on a tighter leash.

He sacked Sarah's stunt double because she wouldn't leave Jeff Pruit.
The new stunt double from S5 onwards was terrible. That cartwheel kick always looked ridiculous

It seems like Joss never really had time for Charisma so when Greenwalt left her cards were marked. It was Greenwalt who pushed for Cordy on Angel and was for Cangel.

 

[NoShip]

So I'm guessing he also had issues with NB too? Definitely know SMG was punished with some of the content of s6..

By S4 NB's alcoholism was infecting his acting and NB was a nasty drunk. NB's drunkeness would get much worse and Whedon was very unhappy to have to deal with it.

By S4, Whedon and SMG did not have much of a relationship. Professional only. SMG didn't put up with Whedon's nasty interpersonal humor nor did she suck up which really pissed off Whedon and his acolytes.

Interesting story: When Hannigan said that Gellar was totally over BTVS at the end of S3, she was telling the truth. What Hannigan left out was that Whedon had stated his desire to leave six months before Gellar spoke up. Gellar recognized Whedon's writing super power and saw that none of the other writers were anywhere close. She believed that Whedon leaving would lead to a much worse series. So, if Whedon was leaving, Gellar wanted to go too. We saw the reaults in S4 and S6 and S7.

Post automatically merged: Aug 27, 2025

I wonder if that is less not realising and more, through arrogance, not caring what the actors felt. Punishing actors, which it seems Joss did in both those cases, would suggest more the latter than the former.

There was a lot of arrogance at the top of Mutant Enemy. Not just Whedon. Most of the top people enabled Whedon's nasty tendencies.

Whedon put a huge amount of effort into finding truly creative ways to humiliate the "out" crowd. And Whedon enjoyed the power a signed contract gave him over cast and crew.

Whedon had real problems with established, well known and well regarded actors and writers and directors and department heads because they knew how to stop Whedon in ways that he could not retaliate. Most weren't around long.

 

[Btvs fan]

By S4 NB's alcoholism was infecting his acting and NB was a nasty drunk. NB's drunkeness would get much worse and Whedon was very unhappy to have to deal with it.

By S4, Whedon and SMG did not have much of a relationship. Professional only. SMG didn't put up with Whedon's nasty interpersonal humor nor did she suck up which really pissed off Whedon and his acolytes.

Interesting story: When Hannigan said that Gellar was totally over BTVS at the end of S3, she was telling the truth. What Hannigan left out was that Whedon had stated his desire to leave six months before Gellar spoke up. Gellar recognized Whedon's writing super power and saw that none of the other writers were anywhere close. She believed that Whedon leaving would lead to a much worse series. So, if Whedon was leaving, Gellar wanted to go too. We saw the reaults in S4 and S6 and S7.

Post automatically merged: Aug 27, 2025

There was a lot of arrogance at the top of Mutant Enemy. Not just Whedon. Most of the top people enabled Whedon's nasty tendencies.

Whedon put a huge amount of effort into finding truly creative ways to humiliate the "out" crowd. And Whedon enjoyed the power a signed contract gave him over cast and crew.

Whedon had real problems with established, well known and well regarded actors and writers and directors and department heads because they knew how to stop Whedon in ways that he could not retaliate. Most weren't around long.

Your being to generous. It wasnt because Whedon wasn't about but about some of the nasty crap he said on her Cruel Intentions role which she herself is on record as saying is her finest role.

Hell go the Firefly DVD Commentary and he talks about cranky season 7 TV stars. He's talking about Gellar

 

[NoShip]

Your being to generous. It wasnt because Whedon wasn't about but about some of the nasty crap he said on her Cruel Intentions role which she herself is on record as saying is her finest role.

Hell go the Firefly DVD Commentary and he talks about cranky season 7 TV stars. He's talking about Gellar

You are correct.

I don't think it is an "either-or" kind of thing. I think it is a "both-and".

 

[thetopher]

It was Joss Whedon's choice to kill off Maggie, not LC leaving.

Well then it sounds like its all Joss' fault, not Greenwalts for leaving. The fact is that when Walsh died is the catalyst for the plotting of the season getting so wonky. If it was a planned subversion then it was ill-thought out.

Apart from Jane Espenson who was a self confessed Spuffy shipper that's not true. Joss was not a fan of Spike but recognised he was popular bur that's not the same thing.

'Buffy and Angel is for the masses, Spike and Buffy is for me.' Joss Whedon.

I'm paraphrasing the exact quote but the sentiment is enitrely accurate. And if you're convinced that Riley was more beloved by the writers than Spike then...I don't know what to tell you, we're watching different shows I guess. *shrug*
And it wasn't just Jane Espensen who pushed her favoritism for Spike/Spuffy, Rebecca Rand Kirshner did as well.

Listen to the FFL DVD Commentary, Spike is literally an after thought to Riley "he's just so cool" listening to Doug Petrie

1 commentary track on an episode he wrote that's probably one of the best 'Spike-centric' episodes of the show and 1 latter Riley-centric episode doesn't make Doug an 'overrated Riley fanboy'; it makes his a fan of Briley and a solid episode writer in general.

 

[NoShip]

@NileQT87 - Joshua Jackson pulled DB off of NB, whose ex-girlfriends claim he dated her, after nasty words about his relationship with SMG right before season 3.

I remember the rumors about SMG's extensive dating life back in the day.

It's funny, the original plan was to have the hot cheerleader (Buffy) fall in love with the loser geek (Xander). If you watch the unaired pilot on YouTube, you can watch the foundation being laid.

Unfortunately for NB, the women of Mutant Enemy did not react to him with the same badly concealed desire they showed for DB. So, brutally fast, NB got demoted from protagonist's love interest (the reason he was hired as a regular) to friend zone, and it was down hill from there.

There are promotion stills for S1 showing NB & DB & SMG in classic TV love triangle poses but that was over by BTVS's premier.

Heard about alot of NB scuffles but not this one. Makes alot of sense if both were dating the same girl. Could explain their fall out.

 

[hoponlilmama]

Reading all the above, it really sounds like the series should've wrapped up at s5. So much going on behind the scenes..

 

[Btvs fan]

Well then it sounds like its all Joss' fault, not Greenwalts for leaving. The fact is that when Walsh died is the catalyst for the plotting of the season getting so wonky. If it was a planned subversion then it was ill-thought out.




'Buffy and Angel is for the masses, Spike and Buffy is for me.' Joss Whedon.

I'm paraphrasing the exact quote but the sentiment is enitrely accurate. And if you're convinced that Riley was more beloved by the writers than Spike then...I don't know what to tell you, we're watching different shows I guess. *shrug*
And it wasn't just Jane Espensen who pushed her favoritism for Spike/Spuffy, Rebecca Rand Kirshner did as well.



1 commentary track on an episode he wrote that's probably one of the best 'Spike-centric' episodes of the show and 1 latter Riley-centric episode doesn't make Doug an 'overrated Riley fanboy'; it makes his a fan of Briley and a solid episode writer in general.

He literally said didn't take to Riley because they didn't want Buffy to be happy. That's blatant gas lighting on his part.

He also said Spike and Angel were his perfect couple.

I remember Petrie there was bug debates about who should win the Angel/Riley fight in the Yoko Factor. It was eventually given to Angel because he had the Spin off.
Also, you don't think As You Were was a love letter to Riley ?

Post automatically merged: Aug 30, 2025

Reading all the above, it really sounds like the series should've wrapped up at s5. So much going on behind the scenes..

Joss has admitted he had a 5 year arc planned. But the money from UPN as well as having 3 different shows on 3 different networks was to good to pass up. Which given it almost ended with no shows is ironic

Post automatically merged: Aug 30, 2025

@NotASlayer it was the year before during S4, the S5 thing was separate but also Joss fault. Angel was almost cancelled . Many of the crew thought they would be, it was only bringing over Spike, changing the look of the show and going to stand alone that got it renewed

 

[Andrew2005]

Writing and Producing TV shows are mutually exclusive skill sets. One is creativity on demand and the other is pure operations management. So writing is not good preparation for producing a TV show.

Now, most good TV producers start out as writers, but then they spend several years as Associate Producers only so they can learn all the ins and outs of turning the writers visions into the TV shows we know and love.

Whedon missed the apprenticeship.

Post automatically merged: Aug 25, 2025

Structure is a writing problem not a production problem. TV is controlled by writers who become producers and showrunners.

Greenwalt's real contributions revolved around his understanding of what audiences craved (e.g.: sexy vampires) and his willingness to compromise with the studio and network, and, especially, his ability to tell Whedon "no" and make it stick and still remain friends.

The "NO" ability is what enforced the discipline that ensured the existing structure was followed.

So Greenwalt disciplined Whedon which is the difference everyone notices from the middle of S4 on.

Post automatically merged: Aug 25, 2025

Personally, I think that if Greenwalt was around, Noxon never would have been showrunner. Also, once S6's Dark Willow and Death of Tara arcs had been set, that was it. Greenwalt wouldn't care about Hannigan's or the writer's objections. He would work with them all to create the best episodes possible, but, the story and scheduled events would not change.

Many producers started off as writers

A lot of stuff happened in season 4 and beyond that can be explained by poor management.

• Not realizing Seth Green was unhappy and only signed for six episodes
• Signing Lindsay to play Maggie for an entire season, but running out of things for her to do by mid point.
• Keeping two actors under contract, but making a plot out of not having anything to do with them.
• Not realizing Sarah was unhappy.
• Not realizing that Tony Head was unhappy.
• Not telling the WB that Willow was gay.
• Unintentionally creating main cast members from guest stars due to union rules.
• Realizing Actors were unhappy and using it against them.

Now, I think a lot of these problems can be explained by the nature of season 4, like spending a month on Faith & Buffy's relationship when you should have been building towards the finale, or are acceptable trade off, like having to explain that finale and the "coda" are two different concepts. But yes, a lot of the things listed above would have probably been avoided if Joss was on a tighter leash.

WTF are you talking? First off it not the job of an actor to be unhappy and in the case of Gellar, she didn't create Buffy let alone stories l. If she was. As Anthony Head, he only left during season because he wanted to spend time with his family in England and Joss accommodated that by keeping him as a guest star. The same could be said about Kristine Sutherland... because she living in Europe at the time she and Joss decided mutually that the character should be killed. In the case of Seth Green, like many TV actors at the time (such a Leonardo DiCaprio, George Clooney, Will Smith just to name some) he was pivoting his career towards feature films and doing both TV and film is just not feasible. In fact Linda Park (Star Trek) is another prime example of this this..even if Star Trek Enterprise had gotten a season 5 doubt she would've been because she was still heavily into theater.

It's not easy being a TV actor and trying to have other commitments and Christopher Judge literally have said that his commitment to Stargate is why he gave up looking for movie roles.

 

[NoShip]

Perhaps slightly veering off topic, but I wonder how much say AH had on the set? From not liking the DW arc so it was reduced, to being able to get out of singing in OMWF - yet the others who couldn't carry a tune (SMG, NB, MT) had to do it.

Well..... Hannigan was Whedon's bestest friend amoung the actresses.

 

[garfan]

well, regarding OMWF don't forget that MT did get her singing reduced at request and SMG actually insisted on singig

 

[hoponlilmama]

well, regarding OMWF don't forget that MT did get her singing reduced at request and SMG actually insisted on singig

I don't know about MT but in regards to SMG, that's not entirely true. She initially wanted someone else to sing for her:

"I do not sing. I never sold myself as a singer and I am not. I was going to let someone else do the singing, because I don't like to do something unless I can really do it. Then I read the script and realized what a huge arc it was for my character and went and made the decision that I did not have a choice."

It wasn't until she read the script completely that she understood the impact of her actually singing.

You'll notice AH doesn't have a solo/joint song. Everyone else pretty much does (MT is more about dancing but still sings more than her).

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

WTF are you talking? First off it not the job of an actor to be unhappy and in the case of Gellar, she didn't create Buffy let alone stories l. If she was. As Anthony Head, he only left during season because he wanted to spend time with his family in England and Joss accommodated that by keeping him as a guest star. The same could be said about Kristine Sutherland... because she living in Europe at the time she and Joss decided mutually that the character should be killed. In the case of Seth Green, like many TV actors at the time (such a Leonardo DiCaprio, George Clooney, Will Smith just to name some) he was pivoting his career towards feature films and doing both TV and film is just not feasible. In fact Linda Park (Star Trek) is another prime example of this this..even if Star Trek Enterprise had gotten a season 5 doubt she would've been because she was still heavily into theater.

It's not easy being a TV actor and trying to have other commitments and Christopher Judge literally have said that his commitment to Stargate is why he gave up looking for movie roles.

Re: Actor Happiness: Actors are artists, with their own needs, wants and desires. As a Producer, your Star actors, namely First (Sarah Gellar) and Last Billing (Tony Head) as well as the breakout star who happens to be signed to you for no reason (Seth Green), it is of utter importance to keep those three happy. Sarah’s unhappiness started with Parker and Buffy, and would escalate throughout college years, until she refused to come back for season 8, losing everyone involved massive amounts of money. Both Green and Head were clearly unhappy with their role in Season 4, and were unwilling to continue the opportunity costs that came with working on Buffy.

 

[Btvs fan]

Re: Actor Happiness: Actors are artists, with their own needs, wants and desires. As a Producer, your Star actors, namely First (Sarah Gellar) and Last Billing (Tony Head) as well as the breakout star who happens to be signed to you for no reason (Seth Green), it is of utter importance to keep those three happy. Sarah’s unhappiness started with Parker and Buffy, and would escalate throughout college years, until she refused to come back for season 8, losing everyone involved massive amounts of money. Both Green and Head were clearly unhappy with their role in Season 4, and were unwilling to continue the opportunity costs that came with working on Buffy.

You left out the move to UPN. During Season 5 Gellar was on record saying she was happy at the WB and of they moved she'd leave the show.
Joss Whedon then went public himself and reminded her that she's on contract so no she's not leaving and has no say in the decision making process.

After the show ended Freddie Prince and Joss got in a public spat.

Joss was also really angry that she never did the 100th episode of Angel (hence why he brought back Charisma Carpenter) and basically buried Buffys character in That Girl in Question "She's moved on and so should we"

 

[NotASlayer]

You left out the move to UPN. During Season 5 Gellar was on record saying she was happy at the WB and of they moved she'd leave the show.
Joss Whedon then went public himself and reminded her that she's on contract so no she's not leaving and has no say in the decision making process.

Yeah, deliberately making your actors unhappy is really not a great way of getting their best performances from them. Sure, some can be divas, but abuse is abuse. Sometimes I wonder if SMG did a good job of portraying Buffy as miserable in S6 was because she wasn't acting and that was how she was really feeling from the abuse.

 

[thetopher]

He also said Spike and Angel were his perfect couple.

Pretty sure this was just a joke on one of the commentary tracks.
On the other hand his comments about Spike and Buffy were in regards to analysis of his own writings. It's all about context given how much Whedon prattled on and how many times he contradicted himself.

I remember Petrie there was bug debates about who should win the Angel/Riley fight in the Yoko Factor. It was eventually given to Angel because he had the Spin off.

That's fair reasoning, for all his gismo's Riley is basically a regular human. Also Angel gets his ass kicked enough on his own show lol, Plus psychologically giving him a win is to entice Buffy-only viewers into going over and checking out his show and all the badass action going on over there.

All in all I think its a balanced fight scene; Riley acquits himself...okayish, considering that Angel isn't trying to kill HIM since he's a hero-type guy who didn't start the fight.

Also, you don't think As You Were was a love letter to Riley ?

As You Were is to show how far Buffy has fallen in such a short time. Riley is idealized only by comparison and overall he is the least idealized of Buffy's significant others. Angel gets a half season of Buffy S3 being a total heroic badass and a spinoff, Spike got the last two seasons and got to live on in Angel's spinoff managing to (inexplicably) win a fight against Angel on his own damn show. Who is getting the love letter there?

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: The Fight; Eh, the very fact Angel was able to take the whole team down means their training wasn't very good.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Re: UPN; I would have to take Joss's side on that one. I doubt either Joss or Sarah really had much say on which network the series aired on, and threatening to leave the series when she didn't have that power may have harmed several publicly traded corporations, so Joss had to shut that down, if he wasn't outright ordered to.

Having said that, Sarah was right. The WB, as part of the Time-Warner Empire, was a lot better at marketing than UPN was. Her future projects could have used that type of power, not "Well, Star Trek was already in decline and Wrestling's past it's prime."

 

[Synch]

I have my doubts about his work even during early S4 as Angel was a new show and needed Greenwalt full time. Actually the show started with Buffy writers (plus Joss and Greenwalt, of course) doing the first 6 episodes (Buffy writers did also Firefly episodes 4 to 6 after Joss and Tim did 1 to 3 without any writers room) before Angel team took over (and, of course, Minear as maybe instantly number 2)

Many of Buffy S4 issues could be due to Joss running Buffy and also overseeing Angel (both writers room were at the same building, Buffy upstairs, Angel downstairs... There was a joke or some quote about Buffy team got fresh Joss and Angel got shitty Joss lol). Noxon as new number 2 did a lot of work at Angel too so another problem for the Buffy schedule.

Angel S1 also had some issues even with Greenwalt as showrunner and the show needed lots of Minear work (he rewrote many episodes) and also lost every single non-Minear writer after S1.

Btw, as for Greenwalt during Buffy early seasons, there is no surprise here. Joss was the creator, the 'genius', but also without any experience running a TV show so Greenwalt was the veteran network asked for to help run the show. A great writer too (he could imitate Joss writing style.. Basic writers room duty) but more of a producer. However, by Buffy S4, its new number 2 was another writer without showrunner/production experience (number 2 normally run the show when showrunner isn't there, in that case Joss writing, directing or over at Angel).

So yeah, as tons and tons of shows, and movies, the main guy has one person to help (from Billy Wilder, to Woody Allen, to George Lucas), perhaps with less talent but the needed 'anchor' figure too many 'genius' need by his/her side.