Losing David Greenwalt was that BtVS biggest loss ?

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Greenwalt was one of the best writers on either series in my opinion, but I'm not sure if he leaving Buffy was entirely responsible for the show going downhill, if you believe that.

 

[NoShip]

I wonder if that is less not realising and more, through arrogance, not caring what the actors felt. Punishing actors, which it seems Joss did in both those cases, would suggest more the latter than the former.

Whedon was all about punishing actors. He could be quite cruel to actors who pushed back against his "ideas". Just read his comments about SMG when she wasn't willing to be a puppet, or, worse, when she proved she didn't need Whedon to be successful.

Whedon saw actors as puppets who said the lines as written and followed the his characterizations without comment. Not at all how actors and writers and showrunners worked together anywhere else.

 

[Andrew2005]

Season four is definitely a mess arc-wise, though it is great for episodes. Season five seems tighter, but having Glory being pretty much unable to do anything of note (Orcus on His Throne - TV Tropes) or failing to do it competently when she tried - because, you know, it is far more important to get shoes; got to look good when you're a god - did diminish her in some ways. Glory might well have benefited from a minion for the first half of the season, like Spike and Dru, who was more of an active threat, and then she take over in the second half.



That is such a pointless episode. It could have been, despite everything, the point when Buffy turned the corner and became what it used to be. Instead it, and Tabula Rasa, mark the point when the series died. Everything in it was completely ignored to the point where it felt crowbarred into the season because Joss wanted to write a musical episode. (Just what's with that anyway?)



The First isn't a Big Bad. It is just bad. And, really, why did it take them so long to figure out that Buffy couldn't hit something that had no body? Well, other than the obvious that no one really cared by that point.

I would say Buffy definitely suffered in terms of structure, and in particular in the last two seasons. It might be a combination of the loss of someone experienced, someone less experienced taking over and Joss just being random.

Season 4 was only a mess because Joss basically recycled a bunch of material from the first 3 season and didn't work. Season 5 however was a evolution because of a change in tone.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2026

Whedon was all about punishing actors. He could be quite cruel to actors who pushed back against his "ideas". Just read his comments about SMG when she wasn't willing to be a puppet, or, worse, when she proved she didn't need Whedon to be successful.

Whedon saw actors as puppets who said the lines as written and followed the his characterizations without comment. Not at all how actors and writers and showrunners worked together anywhere else.

It's NOT the job of actors tell writers let alone showrunners how to run their shows let what stories to tell. In fact Steven DeKnight voiced his frustration with Jenna Ortega changing scripts to fit her narrative how Burton wanted to tell his story.

The role of an actor is to perform, not dictate to showrunners, directors or producers.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2026

Whedon was all about punishing actors. He could be quite cruel to actors who pushed back against his "ideas". Just read his comments about SMG when she wasn't willing to be a puppet, or, worse, when she proved she didn't need Whedon to be successful.

Whedon saw actors as puppets who said the lines as written and followed the his characterizations without comment. Not at all how actors and writers and showrunners worked together anywhere else.

SMG proved what? It's well known that SMG voiced her frustration about Joss never being on the set during all of season 6 and to me all that prove is that without Joss , SMG was stuck

 

[NoShip]

It's NOT the job of actors tell writers let alone showrunners how to run their shows let what stories to tell. In fact Steven DeKnight voiced his frustration with Jenna Ortega changing scripts to fit her narrative how Burton wanted to tell his story.

The role of an actor is to perform, not dictate to showrunners, directors or producers.

Successful shows have always been collaborations between actors and writers and showrunners and studios and cinematographers and editors and some others. The basic dividing line between actors and writers and showrunners has been that the showrunners & writers know the storylines and the actors know the characters.

When either does not respect that division you get incoherent characters reacting to nonsensical storylines. Alot like what you saw in S4 and especially S6 & S7.

The problem was NOT the actors telling the writers what to write. It WAS the writers ignoring the actors for a joke or emotional payoff that did not make sense within any storyline.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2026

SMG proved what? It's well known that SMG voiced her frustration about Joss never being on the set during all of season 6 and to me all that prove is that without Joss , SMG was stuck

SMG is rather shrewd. At the very beginning of Buffy, he promised Gellar that he would not abandon the show while the actors were under contract. That is one of very many promises that Whedon broke.

So Gellar figured out by S3 that NONE of the writers had Whedon's flair for writing BTVS. If he left, the show would be much worse. Her complaints were about Whedon not being around to punch up the other writers scripts. We saw the drop in quality in S4 and especially S6. And because she was under contract she actually was stuck.

 

[Andrew2005]

Successful shows have always been collaborations between actors and writers and showrunners and studios and cinematographers and editors and some others. The basic dividing line between actors and writers and showrunners has been that the showrunners & writers know the storylines and the actors know the characters.

When either does not respect that division you get incoherent characters reacting to nonsensical storylines. Alot like what you saw in S4 and especially S6 & S7.

The problem was NOT the actors telling the writers what to write. It WAS the writers ignoring the actors for a joke or emotional payoff that did not make sense within any storyline.

Post automatically merged: Apr 12, 2026

SMG is rather shrewd. At the very beginning of Buffy, he promised Gellar that he would not abandon the show while the actors were under contract. That is one of very many promises that Whedon broke.

So Gellar figured out by S3 that NONE of the writers had Whedon's flair for writing BTVS. If he left, the show would be much worse. Her complaints were about Whedon not being around to punch up the other writers scripts. We saw the drop in quality in S4 and especially S6. And because she was under contract she actually was stuck.

Joss Whedon never abandoned the show as he was very involved in every story pitch and script that was ever made. The only difference was the fact his other commitments meant that he couldn't be on the set all time since he other things to run at the time i.e Angel and Firefly.

Beyond that I don't know about what you're talking about a drop in quality. The show actually got much better especially with the change in time for seasons 6 and 7.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2026

Greenwalt was one of the best writers on either series in my opinion, but I'm not sure if he leaving Buffy was entirely responsible for the show going downhill, if you believe that.

Buffy never went downhill though season 4 lackluster for basically recycled old material and plotline.

The only way the show would've gone downhill was if the kept up with the same repetative storytelling, season 6 and 7 demonstrate Joss Whedon ability to evolve the formula rather than trying to play it safe.

 

[NoShip]

Beyond that I don't know about what you're talking about a drop in quality. The show actually got much better especially with the change in time for seasons 6 and 7.

You and I are going to disagree about s6 and s7.

 

[Andrew2005]

Joss Whedon never abandoned the show as he was very involved in every story pitch and script that was ever made. The only difference was the fact his other commitments meant that he couldn't be on the set all time since he other things to run at the time i.e Angel and Firefly.

Beyond that I don't know about what you're talking about a drop in quality. The show actually got much better especially with the change in time for seasons 6 and 7.

Post automatically merged: Apr 17, 2026

Buffy never went downhill though season 4 lackluster for basically recycled old material and plotline.

The only way the show would've gone downhill was if the kept up with the same repetative storytelling, season 6 and 7 demonstrate Joss Whedon ability to evolve the formula rather than trying to play it safe.

So what should Joss Whedon have with seasons 6 and 7 other than rehash what already done. I guess you must've miss the part Joss Whedon talks about how moving to UPN allowed him to get around the creative restrictions that was placed on him

 

[NoShip]

There were a lot of things Whedon could have done for S6 that did not require writing a completely different show and writing it badly.

You obviously thing S6 is great. I don't. If you think S1 thru S5 was rehashing already done storylines you didn't watch those seasons.

The creative restrictions placed on Whedon by WB made him a much better writer. S6 & S7 truly suffered from Whedon's creative freedom. And we saw what a crap writer Whedon was in S8 when there were zero creative restrictions.

 

[NotASlayer]

You obviously thing S6 is great. I don't. If you think S1 thru S5 was rehashing already done storylines you didn't watch those seasons.

Unlike S6 which was, according to the writers, apparently cobbled together using rejected soap opera story ideas without anything remotely resembling a plan and S7, which actually was rehashing already done storylines that had been covered better in earlier seasons.

 

[DagonSphere]

I read this book "The Oral History of Buffy and Angel", which has a lot of interviews with cast and crew. Apparently, they initially thought that the Buffy writing staff could carry the workload for both shows, so they only hired a couple of new writers. Throughout producing season 4 of Buffy and season 1 of Angel they however realized that Angel needed its own writing staff, so I think that has to do with whatever declined writing quality one might perceive in Buffy season 4. Similarly, season 7 struggled from Joss spending more time on Firefly/Serenity, Marti Noxon on maternity leave and David Fury being more heavily involved in Angel.

If we are all being honest, season 4 is an incredibly difficult and important season. It's the only season other than the first season that has to be built from the ground up. The show loses its main setting (high school) and three series regulars (Cordy, Angel, Oz). The show has to establish a new setting, a new major love interest (Riley) and add new characters to step into the shadow of well-received fan-favourite characters (Spike, Anya, Tara). Season 4 had all the odds against it, but still has some pretty fun and cool episodes.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

I can see why they thought that, I suppose if you think of Angel as Buffy's C & D plot, it's not that much more work. But, just as I am not a television writer, Joss wasn't a multi-series TV producer either. I'm glad he kind of learned his lesson with Firefly.