Moment of True Happiness?

[Flannen]

So, on my walk into Uni today I had this thought (yes, BB, I take you everywhere with me).

It came out of a comment I made in another thread that the nature of the curse upon Angel has been given more depth since season two of BtVS. Back then we were kind of 'led' to see the act of sex to be the key in breaking the curse. However, as we have seen in AtS, Angel CAN actually have sex without losing his soul, and the moment of true happiness is more about a moment in which Angel forgets himself, his mission and his atonement; still with Buffy being one of the main parts of the equation, as its not just anyone that causes this, it's Buffy (so far at least - please leave the Cordelia thing out of it for now as that was a dream, if you wouldn't mind, it'll just complicate things 😛)

So this bought up a few questions...could, then, Angel lose his soul in some other way from experiencing a moment of true happiness? I have absolutely no examples of how this might happen, I guess that's what I'm asking. Could there have been something else that could happen between him and Buffy that would lead to him 'lose' himself to that extent. Maybe it's less unlikely to happen now that Angel (and co.) are aware of how the curse is lifted and are therefore more careful, but if we forget about that for a minute, can you think of any other ways in which it would/could/might happen?

And my other question/thought/idea: would Angel lose his soul EVERY time he and Buffy had a sexual experience with each other? I was kind of thinking that the instance in which he did lose his soul was completely life-altering, for both people involved. Angel had not loved, or felt loved before and it was truly momentous for him to able to express that love physically, but for Buffy too it was a huge occasion as it was the time in which she lost her virginity. So I was thinking did the 'circumstances' have something to do with it?
Could they now, after both have become more experienced and probably both see the act of sex very differently to how they did in 'Innocence', possibly share a sexual experience, without Angel losing his soul? Or does the fact he still loves Buffy as much as he did then, still mean it will, and always will be, true happiness?

 

[hannahfngrl26]

These are some fabu questions. I actually have always kind of wondered that myself. I would hope that "true happiness" finding Angel when he is intimate with Buffy to not be the end all. I would think that their relationship would be a more mature one but at the same time I wouldnt want their physical relationship to be less potent simply because they are older and more experienced. It is kind of a double edged sword.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't know if there is any other way for him to loose his soul. But I do belive there is not. He was so in love with Buffy, but when they slept together, they became one. All that love was so strong at that moment, like they were on the some other planet. He just forgot who he is. Why is he there. He only thought that he is with her, here and now, like tommorrow doesn't exist. So I think his soul stayed there, where he was, on that other planet, but he came back.

 

[Flannen]

I don't know if you're misunderstanding me. I mean is there another 'thing' that could have happened between Angel and Buffy that would have been a 'moment of true happiness' aside from having sex with her. There is more ways of feeling like you have become one with someone, other than just sex.

I'm not suggesting he loses it by being with anyone else or anything - hello, Bangel over here, don't forget! 😛

 

[white avenger]

Angel lost his soul in Season 4 of his series because of an illusion created by a shaman, and, as you pointed out, he has had sex at least twice since leaving Sunnydale without losing his soul, so the simple act of sex isn't in and of itself going to cause him to lose his soul again. In fact, the very knowledge of the consequences connected to that "one moment" could, in itself, actually prevent Angel from ever achieving that same "true happiness" ever again. Also, the "one moment" clause might actually be literal, and, since he has had that, it will never happen again (Remember, the second time that Angel lost his soul required the assistance of an induced dream/delusion. Without that mystical assist, it might never have happened) and wouldn't that be the ultimate irony if Ol' Broody has held back all these years without really having to?

 

[Flannen]

Angel lost his soul in Season 4 of his series because of an illusion created by a shaman, and, as you pointed out, he has had sex at least twice since leaving Sunnydale without losing his soul, so the simple act of sex isn't in and of itself going to cause him to lose his soul again. In fact, the very knowledge of the consequences connected to that "one moment" could, in itself, actually prevent Angel from ever achieving that same "true happiness" ever again. Also, the "one moment" clause might actually be literal, and, since he has had that, it will never happen again (Remember, the second time that Angel lost his soul required the assistance of an induced dream/delusion. Without that mystical assist, it might never have happened) and wouldn't that be the ultimate irony if Ol' Broody has held back all these years without really having to?

LOL, even I think that 'irony' would actually be hilarious.

I really like this post WA, thank you. 🙂 I was struggling to make sense of what I was thinking this morning and your response has really helped.

I very much agree on the possibility that simply knowing about the consequences might prevent it from happening again - kind of what I meant about how they are aware of what might happen. But also applied to Angel, alone, the fact that his own sense of needing to hold back would prevent him from 'losing' himself.

Does this kind of 'cheapen' Angel having a soul though? If he doesn't need to 'fight' to keep it any more?

 

[white avenger]

Does this kind of 'cheapen' Angel having a soul though? If he doesn't need to 'fight' to keep it any more?

To me, it's never been about Angel's soul as much as the fact that he worked every day to become a better man and to make a difference in the world. That's what heroes do, and I like stories about heroes. Angel's soul isn't what made him a hero. Spike was a hero long before he got his soul. Surely you aren't inferring that Spike could do something that Angel couldn't. That maybe Spike was a better man, a greater hero than Angel could have been?

(He was, but that's beside the point)

 

[Flannen]

To me, it's never been about Angel's soul as much as the fact that he worked every day to become a better man and to make a difference in the world. That's what heroes do, and I like stories about heroes. Angel's soul isn't what made him a hero. Spike was a hero long before he got his soul. Surely you aren't inferring that Spike could do something that Angel couldn't. That maybe Spike was a better man, a greater hero than Angel could have been?

(He was, but that's beside the point)

No, I wasn't really inferring any personal thoughts, just throwing a question out there really.

In some ways, I do think that his soul does have to have something to do with fighting to be a better man. Part of that fight was to not give in to his desires (Buffy) thus resulting in said soul being lost. I know what I mean, just not sure I'm explaining it particularly well.

I don't think Spike was a hero long before he got his soul, I think he was on his way and that he knew he was capable of it, but to be a hero is to be selfless and I don't think Spike was that before he got his soul. Interestingly, straight away my answer was that I concede that Spike did what Angelus could never do. But then I thought about it a bit more and thought that all the times we have seen Angelus it has been rather brief, not over the space of several years as with Spike. When we did see Angelus, and drawing on what the Judge said about him having no humanity in him, the demon inside Angel had literally only just been realised. He had been repressed for so long that when he surfaced it was Angelus is full swing. However, I do think that it's a possibility the same could have happened. I don't know if I'd have wanted it to though. If Angelus had become like Spike I probably would have lost just as much interest him as I did Spike.

And I agree about Angel's soul not making him a hero. He had one for years before he set on his path to being a hero. Buffy made him (realise he was/could) he a hero. But it's Angel who fights to be one, I wouldn't ever take that away from him.

 

[Eleftheria]

I agree with princessBuffy about Angel becoming one with Buffy by making love...and it was not just the action itself...it was the whole relationship...Angel had never loved a woman before...he had passions in his life but not love...just being around Buffy made him happy...just the fact that Buffy loved him as much as he loved her made him happy...and i am really happy that Wes in Eternity said that the moment of pure happiness is extremely difficult to achieve...and that by having sex with Darla he achieved perfect despair not perfect happiness so it is definitely not the sex which makes him happy...

maybe he had one moment of pure happiness and he will never have it again...maybe because he had sex for the first time with a person he really loved...who knows that if Buffy and Angel decide to be together again...would that happen again?would he lose his soul everytime they make love?or it happened once and it is not gonna happen because Angel will hold back his "happiness" and is aware of the consequences?i don't know if i make sense!

and i don't think it was because of the illusion he lost his soul...the shaman took it out...Angel just had a dream of a perfect day...maybe i'm wrong i don't know
and white avenger i agree with you about fighting every day and trying to be a better person!
Angel didn't want his soul initially because as an evil person he had done horrible things and he couldn't stand the guilt...but he proved to be a Champion!

i really like talking with ya people!!!you express very interesting opinions!

 

[Willow-Tree]

I'm sorry, but I can't leave Cordelia out of this... just because they "mentally" had sex, it still was enough pleasure to let him lose his soul. 😛

 

[hannahfngrl26]

I'm sorry, but I can't leave Cordelia out of this... just because they "mentally" had sex, it still was enough pleasure to let him lose his soul. 😛

Now I am confused, Angel and Cordy had brain sex?

 

[Willow-Tree]

Now I am confused, Angel and Cordy had brain sex?

In Season Four of Angel, Angel was implanted with a memory of him and Cordelia having sex so he could convert to Angelus, even though they didn't really have sex.

 

[Kana]

In Season Four of Angel, Angel was implanted with a memory of him and Cordelia having sex so he could convert to Angelus, even though they didn't really have sex.

I absolutely agree that this is enough to prove that
a) Angel can be aware of the curse and still lose his soul again
b) Buffy isn't the only person who can make Angel lose his soul.

The way I see how we can define happiness may change over time and also remember it's only a moment that's needed. The world wasn't perfect in either instance when he lost his soul but it was enough.

So to answer the question...I don't think it's specific to sex but if I were Angel, I'd be extremely careful. Also if he did hold back, what's the point? Surely Angel would just end up keeping Buffy at a distance?

We know that there is a cure out there if Angel wants to be with Buffy or whoever without there being any danger of a sadistic vampire on the loose but the cost is his superpowers. This is probably why he is hoping for a Shanshu type outcome. This way he'll feel the external validation for his actions and redemption and know he's done enough. By that time Buffy would have baked and they can get started on the wedding (whereby Dawn will be the maid of honour and Spike and Connor are the best men) and they can get on with providing Connor with a little brother or sister.

Or Buffy will bake before Angel becomes human and ends up with someone else or he find out the Shanshu is in fact a mistranslation and there is no reward and the whole "which side is going to be on" remains ambiguous (depending on your perspective) and in the end if he doesn't become a pile of dust for his troubles, he simply allows Buffy to move on with her life as he continues to sacrifice everything for the good fight which eventually leads him back to nihilism when he forgets what he is fighting for...

Either way, you can never tell how these things work out.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So this bought up a few questions...could, then, Angel lose his soul in some other way from experiencing a moment of true happiness? I have absolutely no examples of how this might happen, I guess that's what I'm asking. Could there have been something else that could happen between him and Buffy that would lead to him 'lose' himself to that extent. Maybe it's less unlikely to happen now that Angel (and co.) are aware of how the curse is lifted and are therefore more careful, but if we forget about that for a minute, can you think of any other ways in which it would/could/might happen?

Hmm. Interesting topic. Good to see someone else but me thinks of possible thread topics while walking to class! 😉

I imagine a 'moment of true happiness' could definitely occur in some other way for Angel. I wouldn't discount that possibilty at all. After all, as we all know, it wasn't the act of sex that caused him to lose his soul; it was the fact that it was with someone he truly loved for the first time.

The only time I've ever been afraid that Angel was going to lose his soul again was when Conner was born. Having a child is such a huge moment in a mans life. It's really special. It seems to me like a comparable situation.

And my other question/thought/idea: would Angel lose his soul EVERY time he and Buffy had a sexual experience with each other?

This is a great question. I would guess that yes, he would. Why would it be any different now? If Angel doesn't love Buffy anymore, then I think they could sleep together without the loss of his soul...YET we don't really know how Angel feels about Buffy now. Perhaps his feelings have waned, but I doubt he'd want to take that chance.

Plus, I don't think that Buffy would take the chance of sleeping with him again after what happened, even if Angel thought that it wouldn't happen again. Even when he was human in IWRY, she had her reservations at first.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:51 PM ----------

I don't know if there is any other way for him to loose his soul. But I do belive there is not. He was so in love with Buffy, but when they slept together, they became one. All that love was so strong at that moment, like they were on the some other planet. He just forgot who he is. Why is he there. He only thought that he is with her, here and now, like tommorrow doesn't exist. So I think his soul stayed there, where he was, on that other planet, but he came back.

I think though, that another situation could have the same effect on Angel, causing him to 'lose himself' - not just perfect bliss with Buffy.

I know this sounds totally bizarre, but what if he was under the influence of drugs? Any experience that has a 'out of body' reaction in him could cause him to lose his soul again.

---------- Post added at 04:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

Does this kind of 'cheapen' Angel having a soul though? If he doesn't need to 'fight' to keep it any more?

I don't like to think so. This reminds me of what someone posted in some other thread about Spike's soul, saying that the very abilty and desire that Spike had to go and get his own soul "cheapens" the one forced into Angel, and the subsequent difficulty he has in keeping it and living with the concequences of its effect.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

In Season Four of Angel, Angel was implanted with a memory of him and Cordelia having sex so he could convert to Angelus, even though they didn't really have sex.

Surely, this scenario is similar to my drugs analogy. So, what I mean is that if he had a hallucination under the influence of some drug or spell there is a possibility that he could lose his soul that way (like, if he dreamed he was having sex with Buffy?)

 

[Flannen]

If Angel was under the spell of a Shaman when he lost his soul through brain-sex (I'm sorry I love that term!) then I think it's tricky to say that Angel can be aware of the curse and still lose his soul. He is under a pretty heavy influence in this situation, he's not of his own mind, right? So he's either not aware of the curse, or just not aware at all?

Joan, I like what you suggest about Buffy's fears herself, that didn't occur to me, at all. Which is strange! 😛

I still kind of feel that a lot of things that have been suggested as ways of losing his soul, still in some way relate back to sex. Apart from Joan's theory about drugs. So maybe there is no other 'thing' (my brain is tired) that we can think of that would produce such an effect.

Although Joan, you had a fabulous point about Connor.

Maybe White Avenger is right, and it was just ONE moment, he's had it and it's gone?

 

[Kana]

If Angel was under the spell of a Shaman when he lost his soul through brain-sex (I'm sorry I love that term!) then I think it's tricky to say that Angel can be aware of the curse and still lose his soul. He is under a pretty heavy influence in this situation, he's not of his own mind, right? So he's either not aware of the curse, or just not aware at all?

I'm going to have to pull Occam's Razor here. There is no reason to assume that the spell was anything other than a perfect day fantasy. It was still Angel in his entirety but experiencing a perfect day. That is to say if those events actually did happen then Angel would have lost his soul.

I still kind of feel that a lot of things that have been suggested as ways of losing his soul, still in some way relate back to sex. Apart from Joan's theory about drugs. So maybe there is no other 'thing' (my brain is tired) that we can think of that would produce such an effect.

This we don't know. We know it's not just sex but we don't know if something other than sex can cause it. It's difficult to deduce from two times.

Although Joan, you had a fabulous point about Connor.

The Connor thing always had me wondering. Lorne did mention...

Lorne: Yeah, well, it's getting a little tense - your vibe, that is.

Angel: My vibe? What vibe?

Lorne: Oh, just the incredibly anxious one that's been coming of you in waves ever since he was born.

Could this have muted his happiness? I don't know. I've never had kids but it seems that his happiness to a certain degree is circumstantial.

Maybe White Avenger is right, and it was just ONE moment, he's had it and it's gone?

I still believe the fantasy proves that wrong. Everything in the narrative suggests the curse still stands and the moment of happiness will break it. If this was not the case why the perfect day fantasy? Why not a spell like the one that was depicted in Enemies. To me the most simple explanation is that the curse still stands and it can sill be broken. (also Buffy's not the only one who can break it 😉)

 

[Big Damn Hero]

We know that drugs can make him act like Angelus (it's debatable whether he actually lost his soul or not) from Angel Season 1 episode Eternity.

As for t'other, I have no idea.

 

[Eleftheria]

wow you all express so many interesting opinions!Sometimes i believe Cordy could make him lose his soul like it was shown in the illusion...but still the shaman was pulling out a soul...and thus an illusion was created through magic...in this illusion everything is fake...Connor helping Angel,Cordy apologising about having sex with connor and then...kisses Angel and blah blah::noangel:
Angel loves Cordy and Cordy loves Angel(i am not sure what kind of love that is though...in the terms of being sexual,or friend/brotherly love) Angel loses his soul in the illusion but because the shaman interfered...and why did he yell Buffy in the end?that is curious...

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

wow you all express so many interesting opinions!Sometimes i believe Cordy could make him lose his soul like it was shown in the illusion...but still the shaman was pulling out a soul...and thus an illusion was created through magic...in this illusion everything is fake...Connor helping Angel,Cordy apologising about having sex with connor and then...kisses Angel and blah blah::noangel:
Angel loves Cordy and Cordy loves Angel(i am not sure what kind of love that is though...in the terms of being sexual,or friend/brotherly love) Angel loses his soul in the illusion but because the shaman interfered...and why did he yell Buffy in the end?that is curious...

I too believe that Angel loved Cordy, but I'm not sure if she had the capacity to allow him to lose his soul. In "Waiting in the Wings", they come close to having sex when they're under the spell, but Angel doesn't appear concerned at the possibility that he might lose his soul again. I believe Angel can and did love again - but Buffy was his first love. He'll never love anyone like he loved her. Perhaps that 'moment of true happiness' could only happen once, and with one person, in one moment.

The gypsies cursed Angel with a soul to torture him for what he did to them. The only way to lose it was to experience a 'moment of perfect happiness.'

What's interesting to me is why they created this 'exception' at all. Of course, they never thought that he would ever, ever achieve that 'moment'...but still. Why would the gypsies leave open even the possibility that Angel could return to his former self? Seems like it would be in their best interest to curse him with a soul and leave no possibility of his return to Angelus.

I think that I'll never be able to come to a 'conclusion' about this topic as it is so complicated, but I think I'm leaning towards white avenger's theory - that the ONE moment is literal, and that he Angel never have it again. This seems logical to me. I'm inclined to agree with Wes;

Wesley: Angel's moment of true happiness occurred because he was with Buffy. You realize how rare that is – true happiness?

He makes a good point. Also, now that Angel is aware of the curse, it seems like it would be harder to 'get' into that mind-set - a total letting-go of the outside world that allows that find of release - if he was paranoid it might happen.

But yeah, everyone makes great points. Definitely an interesting topic.