Moment of True Happiness?

[Megalita]

What's interesting to me is why they created this 'exception' at all. Of course, they never thought that he would ever, ever achieve that 'moment'...but still. Why would the gypsies leave open even the possibility that Angel could return to his former self? Seems like it would be in their best interest to curse him with a soul and leave no possibility of his return to Angelus.

It's a pretty effed up (albeit thought out) curse, and I think it is more harmful than just giving Angel a soul point-blank.

I mean, we've seen the stress it's had on Angel and the people around him, worrying about him switching to Angelus and therefore attempting to evade that moment of perfect happiness. If Angel was a vampire with a soul forever, there is still a chance for him to be happy (I mean, we've seen it.) Instead, he must attempt to avoid it to protect the people he loves... therefore having a soul and being unhappy all the while happiness is within reach.

 

[Kana]

I too believe that Angel loved Cordy, but I'm not sure if she had the capacity to allow him to lose his soul. In "Waiting in the Wings", they come close to having sex when they're under the spell, but Angel doesn't appear concerned at the possibility that he might lose his soul again.

Well Angel was under a spell at the time, so he wasn't thinking straight. Before he is certainly concerned that he wont be able offer Cordy anything beyond friendship because of the curse and the curse is one of the limitations that Lorne was talking about.

I believe Angel can and did love again - but Buffy was his first love. He'll never love anyone like he loved her. Perhaps that 'moment of true happiness' could only happen once, and with one person, in one moment.

But does how you define happiness have to remain static? I'm definitely of the camp that it's possible for Angel to experience it again. To me the fact that it's indicated it's the same spell and the perfect day made Angel lose his soul, settles it for me. Angel can lose his soul again and Buffy doesn't have to be the one to set it off.

The gypsies cursed Angel with a soul to torture him for what he did to them. The only way to lose it was to experience a 'moment of perfect happiness.'

Well aside from the idea that if the gypsies can't torture him they don't care about returning things back to status quo: in other words, if Angel isn't going to suffer, what's the point? Or it is a mystical side effect or price of the spell.

What's interesting to me is why they created this 'exception' at all. Of course, they never thought that he would ever, ever achieve that 'moment'...but still. Why would the gypsies leave open even the possibility that Angel could return to his former self? Seems like it would be in their best interest to curse him with a soul and leave no possibility of his return to Angelus.

Ooops didn't read this bit, well as above.

I think that I'll never be able to come to a 'conclusion' about this topic as it is so complicated, but I think I'm leaning towards white avenger's theory - that the ONE moment is literal, and that he Angel never have it again. This seems logical to me. I'm inclined to agree with Wes;

Wesley said it was rare, not that it was unable to occur again. Wes was doubtful that is was going to occur with Rebecca and I would agree. Aside from Buffy, Cordelia was one of the most important women in Angel's soulled life.

He makes a good point. Also, now that Angel is aware of the curse, it seems like it would be harder to 'get' into that mind-set - a total letting-go of the outside world that allows that find of release - if he was paranoid it might happen.

I agree it would be harder, but it's proven not to be impossible.

But yeah, everyone makes great points. Definitely an interesting topic.

Absolutely!

 

[Misty]

I'm sorry, but I can't leave Cordelia out of this... just because they "mentally" had sex, it still was enough pleasure to let him lose his soul. 😛

I was just about to make that point! Yeah, Angel did lose his soul with Buffy, but he also lost it in a dream about him and Cordelia having sex.

Now don't attack me for this, but it seems to me that with Buffy he has to actually have sex with her to lose his soul but with Cordelia he loves her so much that he can lose his soul just by thinking about sex with her.

 

[Flannen]

I was just about to make that point! Yeah, Angel did lose his soul with Buffy, but he also lost it in a dream about him and Cordelia having sex.

Now don't attack me for this, but it seems to me that with Buffy he has to actually have sex with her to lose his soul but with Cordelia he loves her so much that he can lose his soul just by thinking about sex with her.

Nice try 😉

Far as I'm concerned, he has to be tricked into it so that he can past the fact they're best friends and it's gross! 😛

 

[Willow-Tree]

Nice try 😉

Far as I'm concerned, he has to be tricked into it so that he can past the fact they're best friends and it's gross! 😛

Hmmm... he was also best friends with Fred, but I don't think that would have worked. 😉

 

[ubi4soft]

Far as I'm concerned, he has to be tricked into it so that he can past the fact they're best friends and it's gross! 😛

You gave me the weirdest idea ever.

Whistler, the messenger of the PTB, if I remember correctly in Becoming 2 when Buffy told him that she had nothing else to lose before going to battle Angel commented that she still has something to lose BEFORE Willow' spell. So he already knew that Buffy will send an ensouled Angel to hell.

Why didn't he tell her? Tricky PTB, they also could be responsible for Willow' burst of magic.

 

[Flannen]

You gave me the weirdest idea ever.

Whistler, the messenger of the PTB, if I remember correctly in Becoming 2 when Buffy told him that she had nothing else to lose before going to battle Angel commented that she still has something to lose BEFORE Willow' spell. So he already knew that Buffy will send an ensouled Angel to hell.

Why didn't he tell her? Tricky PTB, they also could be responsible for Willow' burst of magic.

lol, I don't know how I helped with that idea, but I think it's a great point and not something I had picked up on before.

So, with that in mind, Buffy was always destined to kill Angel. Maybe he wouldn't have become a Champion with out it happening?

And going even further, he HAD to have that moment of happiness and Angelus had to return in order to set it all in motion.

Now I have really serious, complicated thoughts. 😛

 

[Eleftheria]

oh!Do you really think Whistler knew that Buffy would have to kill her Angel...not Angelus???EVIL PTB!!!if they knew...but his death was something necessary i guess...besides he was supposed to come back and become the Champion we loved!


And i have to agree with Flannen...about Cordy...he was tricked into it by the Shaman.Anyway we can never know what would happen if they actually made love.But you already know my opinion on the matter

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

No, Whistler didn't knew Buffy is going to kill Angel. She says that in Becoming Part II, that he thought Angel is meant to stop Acathla, not to bring him.

 

[Misty]

Nice try 😉

Far as I'm concerned, he has to be tricked into it so that he can past the fact they're best friends and it's gross! 😛

How are Cordy and Angel being best friends make their relationship gross?

 

[Flannen]

How are Cordy and Angel being best friends make their relationship gross?

It's just not something that appeals to me any more. I find that there aren't enough writers who are strong enough to keep two members of the opposite sex best friends without forcing them together. I do feel it was a forced relationship. When they were 'just friends' I loved watching them and found the relationship so endearing but actually getting them together ruined it for me.

🙂

 

[Willow-Tree]

It's just not something that appeals to me any more. I find that there aren't enough writers who are strong enough to keep two members of the opposite sex best friends without forcing them together. I do feel it was a forced relationship. When they were 'just friends' I loved watching them and found the relationship so endearing but actually getting them together ruined it for me.

🙂

So what you're saying is that the only reason you dislike their relationship is because it was forced? 😛

 

[Flannen]

So what you're saying is that the only reason you dislike their relationship is because it was forced? 😛

No, the reason I don't like they're relationship is because it's weirds me out! lol
I preferred them as best friends and I just didn't believe they loved each other beyond that. So while I do feel it was forced, it's not the main reason. I just wish Joss had had the strength to keep them that way and not give in to how easy it is to make them a couple.

I was thinking about the questions I posed in my OP though. And I don't think that there is another way (without magic/trickery etc) that Angel would lose his soul. I don't think there's another 'thing' that would he could become so immersed in to forget himself.

 

[Misty]

No, the reason I don't like they're relationship is because it's weirds me out! lol
I preferred them as best friends and I just didn't believe they loved each other beyond that. So while I do feel it was forced, it's not the main reason. I just wish Joss had had the strength to keep them that way and not give in to how easy it is to make them a couple.

I was thinking about the questions I posed in my OP though. And I don't think that there is another way (without magic/trickery etc) that Angel would lose his soul. I don't think there's another 'thing' that would he could become so immersed in to forget himself.

How was it forced? At least their relationship developed unlike Angel's relationship with Buffy. Believe or not I actually think Buffy and Angel were forced because they just happened.

 

[Flannen]

How was it forced? At least their relationship developed unlike Angel's relationship with Buffy. Believe or not I actually think Buffy and Angel were forced because they just happened.

lol, for me it was Angel and Cordy that 'just happened'. For me they want having this fantastic dynamic of a 'best' friendship and then all of a sudden it was 'are we in love?' They're relationship developed too far, it just had no conviction for me.

Whereas Buffy and Angel did develop for me. I'm more of a fan of relationships that grow into friendships, probably because it's more reflective of my own, as opposed to the ones where it starts as them being best friends.

 

[Eleftheria]

IMO Buffy & Angel are not a forced relationship...and i agree with Flannen about Cangel being forced somehow.

Buffy and Angel fell in love immediately.They couldn't help it.I think that happens when soulmates meet.They can't avoid falling in love because it's fate,destiny whatever.

That doesn't mean that i don't believe Cordy and Angel developed a really great bond and understanding.I just like to keep it that way and not imagine them in love/erotic relationship.

 

[PrincessBuffy16]

I don't think either relathionship is forced, but I don't see Cangel as a very good relathionship either. I like Cordy with Xander, they were so much different, but in the same time they had so much in common. When Cordy and Angel were together on screen I felt nothing, just nothing. It wasn't some big love for me. It was like Buffy/Scott thing for me. But I don't see how Bangel is forced. I mean they are everything but forced. If Buffy was with Xander in season 1 that would be forced - special girl figuring out lonely boy who is in love with her is her true love - every show or movie has it. But with Bangel, they created something special. If you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for you.

I've been a fan of a lot of 'ships like Brooke and Lucas, Serena and Nate, Blair and Chuck, Ross and Rachel.. all great shows, all great coupels, but none of them made me feel what I felt about Bangel. None of them made me belive.

Sorry I've just watched Surprise, I'm in super Bangel mood 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

lol, for me it was Angel and Cordy that 'just happened'. For me they want having this fantastic dynamic of a 'best' friendship and then all of a sudden it was 'are we in love?' They're relationship developed too far, it just had no conviction for me.

You know I have to disagree here. For me, it was the complete opposite. Cordy and Angel falling in love seemed completely natural to me. The more time they spent together, the more they learned to respect and inspire each other to be better people. For me, Cangel the true definition of selfless love. She was willing to give him up for her higher purpose. Cordy made Angel a better man, no doubt, just as Buffy did. Cordy kept him on his track. She made him smile. 🙂 What is so tragic about them is that they never really got a chance.

Whereas Buffy and Angel did develop for me. I'm more of a fan of relationships that grow into friendships, probably because it's more reflective of my own, as opposed to the ones where it starts as them being best friends.

And I'm the opposite. This is why I love Spuffy, Cangel, Fresley, Tillow, and Spangel. All of these pairings started as friends 😉

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:14 AM ----------

I don't think either relathionship is forced, but I don't see Cangel as a very good relathionship either. I like Cordy with Xander, they were so much different, but in the same time they had so much in common. When Cordy and Angel were together on screen I felt nothing, just nothing. It wasn't some big love for me. It was like Buffy/Scott thing for me. But I don't see how Bangel is forced. I mean they are everything but forced. If Buffy was with Xander in season 1 that would be forced - special girl figuring out lonely boy who is in love with her is her true love - every show or movie has it. But with Bangel, they created something special. If you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for you.

I've been a fan of a lot of 'ships like Brooke and Lucas, Serena and Nate, Blair and Chuck, Ross and Rachel.. all great shows, all great coupels, but none of them made me feel what I felt about Bangel. None of them made me belive.

Sorry I've just watched Surprise, I'm in super Bangel mood 🙂

Although I dislike Bangel for other reasons, I do not think their relationship was forced. They just simply fell in love. Happens every day. At the time, it was perfect. Bangel is "classic" Buffy, it's the relationship people think of when they think of the show. I think more people think Spuffy was forced.

I *heart* Blair and Chuck, too! They're hot. Yet, I prefer Serena with Dan. Their relationship is the heart of the show, in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 AM ----------

I don't think either relathionship is forced, but I don't see Cangel as a very good relathionship either. I like Cordy with Xander, they were so much different, but in the same time they had so much in common. When Cordy and Angel were together on screen I felt nothing, just nothing. It wasn't some big love for me. It was like Buffy/Scott thing for me. But I don't see how Bangel is forced. I mean they are everything but forced. If Buffy was with Xander in season 1 that would be forced - special girl figuring out lonely boy who is in love with her is her true love - every show or movie has it. But with Bangel, they created something special. If you can't see that, well then I feel sorry for you.

I've been a fan of a lot of 'ships like Brooke and Lucas, Serena and Nate, Blair and Chuck, Ross and Rachel.. all great shows, all great coupels, but none of them made me feel what I felt about Bangel. None of them made me belive.

Sorry I've just watched Surprise, I'm in super Bangel mood 🙂

Although I dislike Bangel for other reasons, I do not think their relationship was forced. They just simply fell in love. Happens every day. At the time, it was perfect. Bangel is "classic" Buffy, it's the relationship people think of when they think of the show. I think more people think Spuffy was forced.

Blair and Chuck, too! They're hot. Yet, I prefer Serena with Dan. Their relationship is the heart of the show, in my opinion.

---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 AM ----------

Oh yeah, Spike and Buffy were great friends from the off 😉 Couldn't resist, sorry! 😛

True. I guess Spuffy doesn't really belong in that list. They were allies, though. Perhaps not friends. They became friends after their ill-fated love affair.

 

[Kean]

I didn't want to intrude on the conversation going on already but I thought I'd throw in my two cents on the original questions 🙂

So this bought up a few questions...could, then, Angel lose his soul in some other way from experiencing a moment of true happiness?

.
The clause of the curse was a moment of true happiness. It has nothing to do with sex. It wasn't sleeping with Buffy that caused Angel to lose his soul; it was what it signified to him. Love, forgiveness, joy, and most of all hope. In expressing the depth of their affection for each other physically, Angel was filled with emotion. He was filled with love, filled with Buffy.

On that occasion, it was making love that brought on those emotions but I don't necessarily think that the the curse could only be broken in that way. In season three Buffy and Angel seek to redefine their relationship and I think in doing that they set upon the road of redefining what true happiness would mean to Angel. I believe this is one of the main reasons that Angel left Sunnydale.

The state of the curse was so precarious. In the opening scene of The Prom we see Buffy and Angel in a beautiful state of domesticity. He is gazing at her lovingly as she rouses from slumber. They smile, they tease and lay in blissfull repose as they plan their future. Despite what they had been through the year before they had grown incredibily close once again and looked to grow even closer. They were making a go of it, finding a way to be intimate without being tactile. I think if they had gone like this that there is a very strong possibility that another method of triggering the curse could have been found, another way to express their dept of emotion for each other, that didn't involve sex.

And my other question/thought/idea: would Angel lose his soul EVERY time he and Buffy had a sexual experience with each other?

I don't think so, no. I think the situation was very specific as to why Angel lost his soul that night. I do believe that they would express that emotion again while making love, but not every time. I think they could have come together with a manner of different emotions spurring them on. It's a family board so I won't go into them 😉 but what I do think is that being able to have sex millions of times but never being to make love would have somehow, been a crueler fate for Buffy and Angel. I think it would have torn them assunder. They would be doing without the best of each other and with out that key part, the heart of them, well the rest just doesn't cut it does it?

 

[white avenger]

My apologies to Princessbuffy16 for the strange karma:

white avenger agrees: SPANGEL? You love SPANGEL? Maybe that's the real reason why Spike never left LA. That never occurred to me, what with Angel and Buffy being so perfect together. Very astute.

That was intended fot Joan The Vampire Slayer. I don't know what happened that would cause me to make such a mistake. It's like my entire thought process has been thrown out of kilter the last couple of days. I'm sure that I'll have it under control in about 4 weeks.

Day 2. 28 more days to go.