More School Violence

[white avenger]

I don't know how many of you have heard about this, but the authorities in Waycross, Georgia, just discovered and stopped a plot by 9 students at a local school to handcuff, beat, and possibly kill one of their teachers because of her disciplining one of them. As bad as that is, the worst part is that the students were in the THIRD GRADE, ages ranging from 8 to 10. The leader was a 9 year old girl.

 

[Black Eye Guy]

Holy crap thats insane!

This is an actual question, do you think a group of 8-9 year olds could take on a teacher?

 

[white avenger]

There were, I believe, 8 children involved. Their plan was apparently to subdue the teacher, a relatively small woman, by hitting her in the head with a glass paperweight, handcuffing her, beating her, and eventually stabbing her with a steak knife. Their plans were so well thought out as to have one child close and lock them in the classroom, making it impossible for anyone to get in or out, and covering the windows so that no one outside could see in. With that plan, coupled with the sheer surprise of the attack, yes, they would almost certainly be able to overcome the teacher.

All of the children involved were "special education," meaning slow learning, students, which some commentators are saying was a contributing factor in the planned attack. They were, according to one psychologist interviewed, probably influenced by "the violence portrayed in the media and video games."

One of the concerns here is just what to do with the children if they are found guilty of planning the attack. There are, obviously, no correctional facilities either here in Georgia or anywhere else in the United States set up to handle children this young.

 

[VisionGuy]

I heard about that on another board I visit. Those kids need a beat down from their parents. Anyway, I heard that they were special students. I'll find the article and post it here for yall.

 

[JCC]

Yeah, I already heard about it. Crazy that there's a whole class of young evil geniuses in Georgia.

 

[Slayergal]

Crazy but I can believe it. Don't under estimate the minds of 8 or 9 year old kids these days. My family learned that one several years ago after my parents' vacation house got broke into and robbed not once but twice by two 8 year old boys. After the second time my parents decided to sell the house because those 8 year old boys happened to live next door.

 

[Vicariously]

that is so sad. The thing is children that age, you would think they could be rehabilitated but my guess is they will only get worse as time progresses and become violent offenders. But they are still children. What happens now to their age of innocence? They have to be punished. But really what is the right thing to do with these kids. *shakes head* sad sad SAD! 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁 🙁

 

[Joyce Summers]

Oh my god.

I actually just said that out loud. They're just little kids and they're planning something like this? An act like that, even just to plan it, is horrific enough but when it's children so, so young. That's just horrible.

I know it's been mentioned that they are 'learning disabled' or whatever, but I don't care what the media says- I just don't think that's an excuse. My stepsister is nine years old and has many learning disabilities but never in a million years would she even consider doing something like that.

Learning disabilities are not to blame, but parenting. A lot of parents nowadays leave it to the teachers and other adults to teach their children entirely from scratch, including what's right and wrong. But it shouldn't be entirely up to the teachers. They have around 30 children to teach everyday, a parent has nowhere near as many and it their responsibility to teach their children what is wrong and what is right.

And I also hate the 'influence by violent video games' excuse. I can accept that yes, with their varied disabilities, maybe they are unable to differentiate between reality and virtual but at ages 8 and 9, their parents should not be letting them play such violent games or watching such aggressive shows, especially if their disabilities mean they are easily influenced.

Young (In this case very) offenders are occurring more and more often and people are starting to seem as though they are accepting this as change of society. But I really don't understand how anyone could nod and accept a 9 year old girl planning such a horrific, murderous crime, no matter what excuses psychologists and the media try to throw at us.

This story actually made me a little sick inside. It's just too awful a thing to think about.

 

[white avenger]

Oh my god.

I actually just said that out loud. They're just little kids and they're planning something like this? An act like that, even just to plan it, is horrific enough but when it's children so, so young. That's just horrible.

I know it's been mentioned that they are 'learning disabled' or whatever, but I don't care what the media says- I just don't think that's an excuse. My stepsister is nine years old and has many learning disabilities but never in a million years would she even consider doing something like that.

Learning disabilities are not to blame, but parenting. A lot of parents nowadays leave it to the teachers and other adults to teach their children entirely from scratch, including what's right and wrong. But it shouldn't be entirely up to the teachers. They have around 30 children to teach everyday, a parent has nowhere near as many and it their responsibility to teach their children what is wrong and what is right.

And I also hate the 'influence by violent video games' excuse. I can accept that yes, with their varied disabilities, maybe they are unable to differentiate between reality and virtual but at ages 8 and 9, their parents should not be letting them play such violent games or watching such aggressive shows, especially if their disabilities mean they are easily influenced.

Young (In this case very) offenders are occurring more and more often and people are starting to seem as though they are accepting this as change of society. But I really don't understand how anyone could nod and accept a 9 year old girl planning such a horrific, murderous crime, no matter what excuses psychologists and the media try to throw at us.

This story actually made me a little sick inside. It's just too awful a thing to think about.

I agree that the lack of parental supervision is far worse than any violent act that a child is apt to be exposed to. My wife is a school teacher specializing in Special Education, working with exactly the age and type of children responsible for this crime. Ironically, the same parents who will threaten to sue the school system if anyone "lays a hand" on their little darlings are the ones who bring those same little darlings to our martial arts studio so that WE can teach them "discipline and self control." So many parents today either have no idea how to properly raise a child or simply don't give a s**t, that they should be held just as responsible as their children for the little monsters' actions.

I saw probably every horror, western, gangster, fantasy, and swashbuckler movie ever to come out of Hollywood when I was a kid, but none of them ever "influenced" me to do anything wrong. I had parents who took the time to explain to me the difference between the fantasy violence in movies and tv and acceptable behavior in real life. I certainly never was a perfect child, and I got into trouble occasionally, but I never thought of using a gun or a knife on anyone, even though I grew up in a household where several of both were easily available. Of course, spanking a child when they misbehaved back then was acceptable, either at school or in the home. Maybe that helped.

 

[Joyce Summers]

I agree that the lack of parental supervision is far worse than any violent act that a child is apt to be exposed to. My wife is a school teacher specializing in Special Education, working with exactly the age and type of children responsible for this crime. Ironically, the same parents who will threaten to sue the school system if anyone "lays a hand" on their little darlings are the ones who bring those same little darlings to our martial arts studio so that WE can teach them "discipline and self control." So many parents today either have no idea how to properly raise a child or simply don't give a s**t, that they should be held just as responsible as their children for the little monsters' actions.

I saw probably every horror, western, gangster, fantasy, and swashbuckler movie ever to come out of Hollywood when I was a kid, but none of them ever "influenced" me to do anything wrong. I had parents who took the time to explain to me the difference between the fantasy violence in movies and tv and acceptable behavior in real life. I certainly never was a perfect child, and I got into trouble occasionally, but I never thought of using a gun or a knife on anyone, even though I grew up in a household where several of both were easily available. Of course, spanking a child when they misbehaved back then was acceptable, either at school or in the home. Maybe that helped.

I don't know how to reply to that besides nodding and saying 'Exactly'. Possibly with an exclamation mark at the end.

It does all eventually come down to parenting. A lot of parents want to have the kid, show them off, parade them and then give them to someone else (say a teacher) and say 'Right, now you do all the hard bits. I'll pay attention again when they're 21'.

And like you said about watching all the violent movies etc- in a similar vein I grew up being a BIG fan of Tom and Jerry something that is now claimed to be too violent for children. But I loved that show, watched it obsessively when I was little and I can't say I was ever influenced to chop people with an axe or slam them in the face with a shovel. My Mom taught me straight away- not in an obvious 'this is not what you do really' way, but more just constant subtle teachings that subconsciously told me that's fiction and we don't do it in reality- about what is considered acceptable behavior and what is not.

Some parents need to get a grip and/or seriously consider whether they are fit and able enough to raise children. Maybe if they did we wouldn't have these awful situations and problems

 

[Lily]

I'm a nanny by trade, and it still amazes me the number of families where I walk in and find the older siblings tormenting the younger ones in a way that is completely unnacceptable and have the parents look at me and say "Oh, what can you do?" or "Can you sort that out?". The lack of parental concern (as you've mentioned) is definately the BIGGEST contributing factor in children, as much effort as it takes to turn the tv off if it's too violent or to just look at your child and say violence is never ok, seems to be too much effort - and then they blame the schools or television or video games. It's craziness, a child is the responsibility of the parent, parents are supposed to guide and mould the minds of young children and give them the morals, values and knowledge to lead a life that is culturally and socially acceptable.

I would like to know how a group of 8/9 year olds were left alone and unsupervised consistently to allow them the time to creat such a plan? my 9 year old charges would get up to all kinds of mischief if I didn't keep an eye on them, and I would have thought children with special needs or learning difficulties would fall into the 'need more supervision' category, not less. It's all extremely worrying. How am I ever going to get the courage to send my own kids to school!

 

[Joyce Summers]

My sentiments exactly Lily. (As I said in the karma 🙂) Extra supervision I think would be needed in these cases, but that responsibility can't alone fall on teachers and nannies. They are there to help, not to do the job entirely.

How am I ever going to get the courage to send my own kids to school!

I was thinking that too. I mean if these are what classmates could be like how can you be confident that your kids are okay? You're meant to feel confident in their safety when you send your kids to school. Heck, the teachers are meant to feel safe when they go to work...

 

[TabulaRasa]

I heard about it also. Completely the most horrible thing I have heard from a kid...kids.

 

[Blondie Bear]

I saw this on CNN a couple of days ago, but didn't realize it was in your neck of the woods, WA. I find it hilarious that the FIRST thing they try to blame is violent TV/movies/video games even after all of the people who say that that sort of thing actually helps them CURB any violent impulses they might have because they can take it out on something else. I know it helps me when I'm really stressed out to boot up Ratchet & Clank or some other silly shoot-em-up and go to town. Diablo II is good therapy, also.

 

[Vicariously]

you know Lily brings up an excellent point about parents not wanting to send our little ones to school when their classmates could potentially be bad influences. I just want to point out that we all at one point noticed a bad influence in our lives at some point. Our parents hopefully taught us well enough to know that those kids where doing wrong and we didnt follow their lead. However, I notice in the case of my four year old especially...that he picks up on the behavior of the kids around him. For example, my adopted sis Morgan, her Son Jonah, whose a brillantly smart kid whom I love very much despite the fact that he at one point and still occassionaly whines to get what he wants. Gram is notorious for giving the kid what he wants...Jonah is also in the habit of telling Gram what he's going to do rather than asking, and it never fails that my son Christian, will mimick this behavior. My husband and I are quick to nip it in the bud. But its frustrating.

I know that I have experienced the whole "how will kids influence my son, deal" with the decision of where to put my four year old into preschool this fall. The local school offers free a pre-k program for kids. However you have to qaulify and though my husband and I qaulify financialy (less than $50,000 a year we make just under) when I was reviewing the application it talks about the majority of the students being "at risk" and they pull then from other school districts. (the other schools dont offer a pre-k)

Where I live most people wouldnt qualify financialy, and crime is not an issue. But the other districts they pull from well they are poorer and more crime riden...basically one of the things they look for are referals from social services...like the kid is in foster care, or has a parent in jail or something.

I am sorry, but I dont want my son in a class full of kids whose parents are in jail for one reason or another or have been abused ect....not that I think the kids are bad, they're kids...but I know that they are bound to have some behavioral issues and I would rather surround my son with kids that come from a more positive atmosphere.

I know that my sharing that opionion on here that alot of people may think that I am stuck up or something. Oh well, I'm not. I know that there will be bad influences everywhere for him...and its my job to teach him the diffrence between right and wrong...but I hope that at least other parents see where I am coming from. I guess basically I am saying that these kids in this pre-k program havent had good guidance and that will reflect in their behavior I am sure and I dont want my son to think that is normal I guess. I mean I know the program is free but I would rather pay for a more positve atmosphere.

I have decided on a christian preschool at a local church. I am actually looking into becoming a member there. But the school they have there starts at pre-k and goes to 12th grade and they do teach religious teachings and I like that. So yeah...


long drawn out post to say I understand being afraid of the influences other kids will have on our own hahahaha

 

[Lou]

And my kids wonder why they're stuck playing Tetris and Super Mario Bros on our old Super Nintendo. They get sick of that and we're whipping out the Atari.
I've HEARD the stories of what their FRIENDS are allowed to play. I saw the games that my best friend let her OWN kid play! The set up was supposed to be for "Daddy" to play with the kids and so instead of child games, they were playing things that made me CRINGE! And that was at 5! I don't necessarily BLAME the video games. But, I will say that we tell them to play things like Candy Land and Monopoly hoping to teach them skills. And they DO. We can't expect they're not going to learn skills from Grand Theft Auto!

Mostly, though, I blame these parents these days. There is a LARGE group of them. And I avoid them at ALL costs. They're general plan seems to be to make children with no conscious of their own because they're constantly turning to Mommy to "fix it". They see their kids as these angels that never do anything wrong and the kids KNOW IT.
Even my own friends are guilty of this and it drives me batty. Little Suzie gets in trouble for talking in class and they go NUTS! They tell everyone, INCLUDING THE KID that they did NOTHING wrong and how bad the TEACHER is. One incident happened when a little girl got her "name on the board" for talking in class. Her Mother told me that she was telling her friend to be quiet so she could work.
In MY world, the OBVIOUS answer was to point out to "Suzie" that she was, indeed, talking. Then you write a note to the teacher and say, "I'm really trying to back you up here. Suzie said she was telling her friend to be quiet and she got caught and had to write her name on the board. It's obvious that was in the right, because she was talking. But, she says she couldn't tell you because that would be "tattling". Can you give me some tips to tell her what she SHOULD do in that situation so that she doesn't get in trouble again?"
I wouldn't take the word of a 5 year old over the TEACHER! Well, I don't know, maybe I would. But, it would have to be something bigger than talking in class or school rules. It's not that my kids lie. Actually, they don't. And, when they try, they REALLY stink at it. The biggest part is that kids don't see both sides of the story.
But, all this going after the teacher for wronging you're little angel is SO bad for the kids. They feel JUSTIFIED in all that they do.
I've also had to spend a LOT of time lately dealing with "bad influences" and trying to explain to my children that just because "Johnny" does something, doesn't make it right. I spend probably 4 days a week making one of them put themselves in other people's shoes. Or trying to explain why someone else's parents let them do things and they can't.
I had to spend about 3 hours explaining to my daughter that EVERY SINGLE person in this world that she will ever meet can teach her something. That everyone has talents and knowledge that she just doesn't. Not because she's not smart, just because they live different lives. (Kind of like what BotD was saying in the Vogue thread) And that she should NEVER write someone off as "stupid" because even they know something she doesn't.
Although, I have friends that INTENTIONALLY tell their kids that they are the smartest ones in the class and that they're better. It makes me so sad. It's like setting them UP for failure. And then, when they start to realize this and lash out, the parents say, "Oh, it's not Johnny's fault, he's perfect. It's those OTHER kids." It's enough to make me CRAZY!

 

[SpikedBuffy]

I did not hear about this, suprisingly.

I just can't stand it. First of all, your thoughts of parental issues at home are 110% correct! I teach 2nd grade and I am raising a majority of these children. Their parents have no concern for their children's well being. They don't help them with their homework, they don't come to conferences, and the only thing they do teach their children is that if they are hit on the playground, they are supposed to hit back, even harder!

Most parents have a total disregard for any consequences for behavior. They don't teach their children that there are consequences for action and they don't rule with an iron fist. And then they have the audacity to blame you for their behavior and accuse you of being 'mean' because you are the one disciplining their child!

I wonder though about that teacher. She obviously didn't rule her classroom. I can tell you that you must have total control over your students, or nothing will get accomplished and obviously students will be hurt if their being disciplined ineffectively.
In our classroom, the students know their boundaries, and they know what expected of them, and they know their consequences for their actions. You wouldn't find 8 children taking me down. Because the second they start pulling any crap, their hauled out my classroom and given a discipline referral, which sometimes ends up in suspensions, and then their parents get to baby-sit them!

 

[white avenger]

I did not hear about this, suprisingly.

I just can't stand it. First of all, your thoughts of parental issues at home are 110% correct! I teach 2nd grade and I am raising a majority of these children. Their parents have no concern for their children's well being. They don't help them with their homework, they don't come to conferences, and the only thing they do teach their children is that if they are hit on the playground, they are supposed to hit back, even harder!

Most parents have a total disregard for any consequences for behavior. They don't teach their children that there are consequences for action and they don't rule with an iron fist. And then they have the audacity to blame you for their behavior and accuse you of being 'mean' because you are the one disciplining their child!

I wonder though about that teacher. She obviously didn't rule her classroom. I can tell you that you must have total control over your students, or nothing will get accomplished and obviously students will be hurt if their being disciplined ineffectively.
In our classroom, the students know their boundaries, and they know what expected of them, and they know their consequences for their actions. You wouldn't find 8 children taking me down. Because the second they start pulling any crap, their hauled out my classroom and given a discipline referral, which sometimes ends up in suspensions, and then their parents get to baby-sit them!

As far as I know, very little in the way of details have been released about the teacher, her level of skill, or how long she had been teaching. They have said, or at least hinted, thet the entire plot was initiated by a single 9 year old girl who just got the others to follow her orders.

 

[TrueVengeance]

That's sick...third graders? Good lord what's happening!?

My younger cousin is in third grade, has played those horrible video games, watches some violent movies, and other things the media blames this on. However, he would NEVER do that. So whenever I hear about television being the reason for these events, I cringe. Because it's mostly the parents. I saw all the violent, gruesome movies growing up, and never in a million years would I have done something like that. I knew the difference between what was real and what wasn't. My parents taught me from a young age.

But now, seems like parents leave that up to the teachers...ugh

and the only thing they do teach their children is that if they are hit on the playground, they are supposed to hit back, even harder!

^^Kind of off topic, but I'm a firm believer in protecting yourself. Though in 2nd grade I can see that it wouldn't be so good.

 

[Lou]

I know that my sharing that opionion on here that alot of people may think that I am stuck up or something. Oh well, I'm not. I know that there will be bad influences everywhere for him...and its my job to teach him the diffrence between right and wrong...but I hope that at least other parents see where I am coming from. I guess basically I am saying that these kids in this pre-k program havent had good guidance and that will reflect in their behavior I am sure and I dont want my son to think that is normal I guess. I mean I know the program is free but I would rather pay for a more positve atmosphere.

I don't think that's stuck up at ALL! I'd feel the same way. Now, around HERE we have a very "stuck up" preschool program right up the road from our house that my Mother-in-law was trying to talk me into putting my daughter in. And it just made me want to gak.
I visited. I SAW parents ALLOW their children to cut in line, in fact, perhaps encourage them to do so. I saw the kids snip something snotty at their "friends" and the parents would just roll their eyes and giggle to one another. It took about LESS than the time I had to wait to notice that I would rather have my daughter picking trash up off the road than having these kids as her role models!

My son, however, went to the most FABULOUS preschool ever. It was for "special needs" kids. He had to go there because of his speech issues. It wasn't in the best part of town and it worried me a bit. It also scared me that he might feel like something was wrong with him to go there.
I was SO happy that he went. In fact, I would have sent my daughter there as a "mentor" because she has NO speech issues and would have talked the kid's ears off.
The results of that place were AMAZING. Not only do my kids not see color. (And no matter what BotD says...I think they really may NOT see it.) They also don't even seem to notice disabilities at all. They both spent a lot of time there and a kid in a wheelchair or one without an arm or anything doesn't even phase them in the least. Even when my husband's Grandmother went into a nursing home for a while, they never got scared or weird around people on oxygen, or with tubes or IVs or wheelchairs or stroke victims.....I could ramble on for hours.
But, it was the neatest thing I've ever seen. And, I know it's all from this preschool!

SpikedBuffy: I don't know HOW you do it with the parents these days. I had to scold my own friend when she said BEFORE the first day of school she walked in and went right up to the teacher and said, "Now, my daughter is smarter than most of the kid's in this class and I need you to find her 'special' work that she can do extra". She also wanted HER daughter to have special library privileges...IN THE FIRST GRADE! And BOY was she ticked when the teacher said she couldn't do that.
I told her I couldn't talk to her anymore if she ever did something like that again. And that the poor teacher did NOT have time, that was HER job to make time, not the teacher's.
How parent's think the teachers can teach ANYTHING to their kids when the parent's spend their time saying how WRONG the teacher is all the time is beyond me. If the parents don't respect the teacher, why would the kid?

My Dad would have laughed me out of the ROOM if I tried to tell him I got in trouble but it wasn't my fault, it was the teacher's.

And, I'm not for my kid's getting beaten up, but I am NOT for hitting back. That doesn't teach the kid anything. Children DO hit, but it's our job to teach them better ways to 1.) control their anger and 2.) work out issues. It's the job of parents and teachers to create capable adults. Sadly, it seems, that these days, only teachers remember that. The parents want a "mini me" or something to show off, like a trophy.