More sorry for Lorne or Lindsey?

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TabulaRasa

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For anyone who has not finished season 5 of Angel, these posts will contain spoilers. Read at your own risk. 🙂








I finished season 5 again and I always felt very bad when Lorne killed Lindsey. The thing is, I didn't feel bad for Lindsey, I felt bad for Lorne. I always get kind of emotional during that scene.
Do you feel more sorry for Lorne having to do something like that or for Lindsey since it is he it happened to?
 
I felt bad for Lindsey. I loved both characters but Lindsey was right. He shouldn't have been killed by the 'Lackey'. I didn't see Lorne as a lackey ever.. until he shot Lindsey after Lindsey had just killed off all of the people there for the team.. He might have had wrong motives, he might have turned evil afterwards, he might have become Angel's nemesis, but Angel took it into his mind and had him killed. He didn't even give Lindsey the time of day for a fight. He just sent someone to do the dirty work. I feel sorry for Lorne, I can't believe he went through with it, and since he did, he made the right choice not going back to Angel's 'Team' Lindsey though, since he was killed, and knew he would never achieve what he wanted and was killed by someone he considered so inferior was very sad.
 
I felt a little sorry for both of them. But the fact that Lindsey protested not over being killed, but over who killed him, shows that in the end he was still the same arrogant man he was when we first met him. All his experiences over the last few years hadn't made him a better person. Lorne on the other hand. Well, I guess you could maybe even say that his experiences made him a worse person. And that I mostly feel sorry for.
 
Allycat said:
I felt a little sorry for both of them. But the fact that Lindsey protested not over being killed, but over who killed him, shows that in the end he was still the same arrogant man he was when we first met him. All his experiences over the last few years hadn't made him a better person. Lorne on the other hand. Well, I guess you could maybe even say that his experiences made him a worse person. And that I mostly feel sorry for.
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See I felt sorry for him both that he was killed, and that he was killed not by the person he wanted to kill him! :lmao:
 
I feel bad for Lindsey because he's the one that got shot. It wasn't Angel's place to decide who lives and who dies. Everybody in AI can be a threat one time or the other. Angel kills me with his decisions.
 
Well, both were in a way betrayed by Angel. Lindsey risked his life to help Angel's plan and then was killed by, literally, as he said, "a flunky." I mean, really, what sense did it make to kill him at that point? He could have been at least as much help in the final battle as Gunn, even unwounded, and Angel had pretty much resigned himself to nobody surviving the night alive. Another sword would've increased his fighting force by 20%, nothing to throw away lightly. If worse came to worst, Angel could have killed him himself at any time during the battle. It would have been the honorable thing to do. At least he would have allowed Lindsey to die with some sense of dignity. The way it worked out was just like Angel telling Lindsey that Lindsey was beneath him. (Does that sound familiar?)

As for Lorne, how could Angel forget that he was an EMPATH, for god's sake? Granted, he couldn't fully "read" Lindsey unless he sang, and that was hardly the time to break into song, but he must have felt SOME degree of Lindsey's pain, sense of betrayal and death. Something like that must have been truly horrible and heart breaking for both of them.

It's just yet one more example of Angel's total unconcern for the people who literally placed their lives in his hands. The assault was hastily and poorly planned (I know, both the season AND the series was ending, but some more time could have found somewhere to allow for a better strategy AND the gathering of more allies.) One wasted episode that could have been dropped in order to have more prep time was "The Girl In Question." It contributed absolutely nothing to the continuity of the series except to get Spike a new supply of leather dusters, and as we know now, it wasn't even Buffy. When Sarah said that she wouldn't be available for a guest shot on the show, the whole episode should have been scrapped in favor of allowing the writers more time to set the stage for the big finale. If they were going to use a poor substitute for Buffy anyway, they could've saved it for the end, then either shown her back at the head of a band of Slayers coming up behind Spike, Angel, and Illyria in the last scene, or on the other end of a phone call when one or both of her vampire lovers called to say what they honestly thought was goodbye.
 
I didn't think about the extra sword in the final battle thing til you just mentioned it, but you're right that would have given them an extra sword, two including Lorne who probably wouldn't have left if Angel didn't tell him to kill Lorne. But than again.. Lorne wouldn't have been all that good in a fight but having two more people there would have helped, ALOT.
 
Don't sell Lorne short in a fight. He grew up in a very warlike world, and he must have absorbed SOME martial skills there. If nothing else, he could have watched the others' back, giving the alarm if any of the hell hoard circled around and attacked from the rear. Also, don't forget that high pitched scream of his that seems to disable anyone who hears it. Of course, in that case, the good guys would have to wear ear plugs, but not many meaningful conversations are usually carried on during the chaos of battle.
 
wow. thats a tough one.

i would have to say that i feel more sorry for lorne. he was a great guy who wasnt too fond of violence......but always seemed to be around. so having to kill someone in cold blood is a step that he shouldnt have had to take.

lindsey had run his course. it was past his time to die. i just think angel, wesley, or cordelia (yes i know she is dead, but is anyone really dead in the jossverse?) should have done it.
 
This is one of those down-the-rabbit-hole moments for me, man.

Angel ordered the elimination of an ensouled human man who, while not innocent, had become at least an ally. He ordered that man's death not because he posed an immediate threat but, instead, because Angel assumed he would pose a threat in the future. Angel wanted to nip a human life in the bud in advance of any trouble that human life might cause to Angel or his plan. He ordered Lorne to do it because no one would ever guess that the resident demon pacifist would be the one to kill. Also, yes, I believe it was a final snub. That's cold-blooded. That's hardcore. That's... Angelus, what with the little psychological twist on the end. The entire plan reeked of Angelus. As much as I love Angelus, I hate to see Angel dredge him up voluntarily.

I don't know why Lorne did it. He said he heard Lindsey sing, so I'm assuming he saw some sort of horrible future that he was trying to avoid.

As for Angel, well... he told Spike that he was going back to Hell when he died. Then, later, he started to question whether or not his destiny was really what he thought it was. Then, he lost Cordy. I think W&H seeped into Angel's soul. I think it was killing him, little by little, and so he went on a suicide mission so that he could go out with a bang and have something of the great destiny he wanted. Very Beowulf of him. He signed away his prophecy. He killed Drogyn. He ordered a hit on Lindsey. Unless he's seen one too many gangster movies or watched GH, I'd say he was pretty sure he wasn't coming back from this fight. I'd say ordering the hit on Lindsey was Angel's way of taking care of business from (even deeper) beyond the grave. He lived by a moral code. But because he wasn't going to live anymore and Hell awaited anyway, I think he felt free to toss that code aside. I see his frame of mind here as very similar to The Operative's frame of mind in Serenity. He wanted to help build a better world -- a world in which there could be no place for a monster like him.

I feel bad for Lindsey, whom I think deserved at least the same chance Angel had been given - the chance to change. At the very least, he was a worthy adversary who deserved to die with honor and because of a scheme he attempted, not one he may or may not have attempted at some point in the future. I feel bad for Lorne, too, whom I imagine as drunk and tormented (very much like Angel was before he met Whistler). I even feel bad for Angel, whose beautiful soul seems pretty tarnished in the end.
 
I always wondered about that. Whether Angel was really okay with killing an ally (while suspicious as Lindsay was)...and even moreso that he was willing to use one of his friends to do it, regardless of how that friend is.

I did feel sorry for Lorne. He wanted to go his own way and Angel asks this one favour of him that if they weren't at the front of an apocolypse, should never have been asked of him. Not so much Lindsay, I agree with Allycat. The fact he was so upset at being killed by a "flunkey" means that even at the end, he really didn't get it.
 
Well, personally, I loved the twist ending with Lorne shooting him. I was unspoiled for that part of the episode (just watched it last week) and it totally surprised me. I loved Lindsey, especially after he left W&H, so from that perspective it was a crappy death. It was pretty cold blooded.

But, in the end, I felt more bad for Lorne. I knew something was up when he told Angel he wouldn't meet them at the hotel. At the time I thought he felt he would die before he got there then when I saw him pull the gun I realized Angel had asked him to do such a heinous thing that he could barely live with himself, let alone look at Angel again. It was just so out of character for Lorne. I wanted to cry for him.
 
Actually, I ended up feeling more angry at Angel than anything else.

I felt like, sure, Lindsey had done some not so great things, but he also seemed to come through a lot when it was necessary. Certainly more than Faith had and even Darla and yet time and time again Angel tried to HELP them instead of just getting rid of them.
And, I felt like having Lorne do it was kind of a stupid loop-hole around the "not killing humans" theory.
He was happy to USE Lindsey when it suited him, but to do something so permanent and to make LORNE...the King Of Niceness and Sanity to do it, was all sorts of cruel. If I'd have been Lorne, I'd have said, "Do it yourself Big Boy...sorry I wasted so much time on someone who either doesn't know me at all or doesn't care who I am."
I felt like it was a useless death and one that still makes me want to sit Angel down and do a bit of screaming.

Although, I must say, Lindsey's comment about being taken down by a "lackey" helped me not feel so sorry for him. If he had said something more along the lines of how he really wanted to help and turn his life around, I'd have felt more sorry for him. Wishing it was Angel doing it, just made him look like a jerk.

I guess I feel worse for Lorne, but my overwhelming feeling is wishing Illyria had taken 2 seconds in that alley to throw Angel through a brick wall.

Wanabee-slayer is the goddess of all that is pink and fluffy in the world
 
Lyndsey, because i really thought if Lorne hadn't have killed him, he would have stayed good and fought on Angel's side
 
Lorne. I was also non spoiled by the last episode and was totally surprised when he killed Lindsey. I also liked Lindsey but he got what was coming to him. But I am also angry at Angel for making Lorne kill. This is not what Lorne is about. I can't wait to see how Lorne is coping in the comics.
 
Gilesau said:
Lorne. I was also non spoiled by the last episode and was totally surprised when he killed Lindsey. I also liked Lindsey but he got what was coming to him. But I am also angry at Angel for making Lorne kill. This is not what Lorne is about. I can't wait to see how Lorne is coping in the comics.
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I know! I am dieing to see Lorne back with the gang. I love Lorne.
And yes, Lorne should not have to kill anyone in that way. In battle it's different, but then again, I guess you could say, that was battle.
It's just not the type of battle I am speaking of.
 
I feel little sorry for them both but more for Lorne. If we are to believe Lorne and Angel, Lindsay was a threat and wasn't going to change but death is death in the end.

I feel sorry to Lorne's condition but I'm not a part of the "Big Bad Angel made Lorne kill Lindsay camp". Angel asked and Lorne agreed because of what he read in him. He's responsible for that decision as is Angel.
 
I never really got these events. I don't know why Angel had Lindsey killed, and I especially do not understand why he got Lorne to do this rather underhand work. I agree that Angel betrayed everyone including himself here. Lindsey was, for whatever reason, fighting on the side of good, and deserved at least to be given a fighting chance. Angel struck a deal with Lindsey and he should have kept to it. To turn on him and and strike him down without warning was inexcusable.
 
I know most people say they're surprised by Lorne in the last episode, but truthfully I wasn't that surprised. First of all he is a demon, whether a good one or not he is a demon. Second of all, he was ordered by Angel to do this, or so that is what we are lead to believe... part of me wonders if Lorne hadn't intended on this from the get go because he didn't trust Lindsey worth a nickel. And does he even return in the comics? I don't have the comics, I need to find a way to get a hold of them, but I wonder if he's even returning in the comic versions and I wonder too how he would cope with that on his shoulders.
 
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