Most boring ships on both BTVS/Angel

[Kendra371]

Nina wasn't "bad" or anything. The real problem with her whole thing with Angel was that it was structured horribly. It was like the writers wanted a new love interest for Angel and then went in a different direction altogether. I mean, and I can't stress this enough, if you want to get a new character over as a love interest, do not bring back old love interests. Riley had that problem in S4 of Buffy. S5 of Angel starts with Angel coming off an amazing final episode with Buffy, and mid-way through they bring Cordy back for one of the best, most emotional episodes ever. Maybe they were banking on a sixth season to develop Nina more, I don't know, but writing it that way just killed any momentum she might have had.

And this is just more a general question. I don't get all the hate for Angel/Cordy. To each their own and all that, but I thought the relationship between them, both as friends and romantically, was some of the best stuff of the series. It's one ship' I don't get the hate for at all. I always think of Angel/Buffy and Cordy/Doyle first, but I loved Angel and Cordy together.

I was hoping to see a great transition from Angel/Cordy... to Angel/Nina. But from what you said it seems like they didn't do a very good job in transitioning from one potential relationship to the other?

Was the problem bringing Cordy back in "Your Welcome"? Did Angel and Nina get together before or after that episode?

 

[Robb Stark]

I was hoping to see a great transition from Angel/Cordy... to Angel/Nina. But from what you said it seems like they didn't do a very good job in transitioning from one potential relationship to the other?

Was the problem bringing Cordy back in "Your Welcome"? Did Angel and Nina get together before or after that episode?

I find for me, it's very difficult to invest in a new love interest for a character I care about when they bring back old love interests. As a fan I like it but from a writing standpoint it doesn't make any sense to me. Nina is established fairly early in S5 as a potential new girl for Angel, but it was set up poorly. There was nothing really wrong with the character. But right before that Angel goes to Sunnydale to get back together with Buffy and they talk about how someday they'll be together. Then shortly after Nina is introduced Cordy comes back in "You're Welcome". Sandwiching Nina between Angel's two great loves, two characters that the fan base loves, made zero sense to me.

 

[ladydorotea]

Then shortly after Nina is introduced Cordy comes back in "You're Welcome". Sandwiching Nina between Angel's two great loves, two characters that the fan base loves, made zero sense to me.

It makes a lot of sense if one is viewing Cordelia not as one of the 'great loves' but as a great friendship that was ruined by a silly romantic fancy that quickly went bad by way of supernatural intervention, and was wrecked to the point when it was nothing but heartache and Oedipus Rex-style wretchedness. Nina was put there as a reference point and a rebound from the never-meant-to-be relationship ruined by incest, and to make it clear how quickly Angel was able to 'move on' in that case, versus how long it took him to never actually move from Buffy.

 

[Robb Stark]

It makes a lot of sense if one is viewing Cordelia not as one of the 'great loves' but as a great friendship that was ruined by a silly romantic fancy that quickly went bad by way of supernatural intervention, and was wrecked to the point when it was nothing but heartache and Oedipus Rex-style wretchedness. Nina was put there as a reference point and a rebound from the never-meant-to-be relationship ruined by incest, and to make it clear how quickly Angel was able to 'move on' in that case, versus how long it took him to never actually move from Buffy.

Well, sure, if you didn't like Angel/Cordy then I guess, but from S3 on Cordy was clearly built as Angel's primary love interest. She was a hugely popular character and "You're Welcome" is widely considered to be an amazing episode. I'm not saying the Angel/Cordy relationship didn't get tarnished a bit by some truly silly writing, it did, but it's made pretty clear that Angel had pretty powerful feelings for her.

 

[ladydorotea]

Well, sure, if you didn't like Angel/Cordy then I guess, but from S3 on Cordy was clearly built as Angel's primary love interest. She was a hugely popular character and "You're Welcome" is widely considered to be an amazing episode. I'm not saying the Angel/Cordy relationship didn't get tarnished a bit by some truly silly writing, it did, but it's made pretty clear that Angel had pretty powerful feelings for her.

I liked Angel/Cordy very much - up until S3 and Kyrumption, and every second character doing the wink-wink, nudge-nudge type of dance. It was bound to end badly, being Joss story - and it did. But in the process of going bad it also created the whole incest momentum that killed any notion of the great love if ever there was one. I have no bone to pick with Cangel shippers, but honestly ? And yes, You're Welcome is a great episode - exactly because it gives closure to the whole Oedipus Rex wretchedness and restores the clean memory of a beautiful friendship that could have went romantic - but never had a chance. And going back to Nina - I think her inclusion was meant to make it certain that Angel's romantic feeling for Cordy were gone by the time You're Welcome aired, which did not make their relationship any weaker or less interesting in the Big Perspective. It was just never meant to be romance.

 

[itssmiletime]

Faith / Principal Wood- it was just so... weird, it was that usual ''the world is ending, so let's pair up'' thing.

Willow/ Oz- I was just bored with their relationship. Nothing much happened, it was much improved with Tara instead of Oz.

 

[brooke2707]

I dont know how people can say half of these couples were boring or you dislike.
Anja/Xander were amazing
Xander/Cordy were hilarious!
Willow/Oz were sweet

I think the worst relationships were pretty much any buffy was involved in.
I hated Angel at the time
And it ruined Spike as a character for me!
To be honest, she should have stayed with scott!!

 

[Blaze]

Aright, before I get flamed for saying this, I really do like this couple and am a big fan but man were they ever boring, of course I'm talking about Bangel here. Now here me out, it's not that they were boring but they're storyline was very predictable, which is why I found them boring.

The only other couple that I find really boring is Buffy/Riley, couldn't stand those too. Comes to think of it, my favorite pairing with Buffy was probably Satsu lol.

Every other couple I might have hated, but at least I didn't find them to be a snooze fest.

 

[brooke2707]

I forgot Riley... More boring than a dry slice of toast!

 

[OFAWB]

Not necessarily "bad", but boring in my eyes:

Buffy & Angel
Cordelia & Wesley
Willow & Oz

*Ducks to avoid the objects that are surely being thrown her way*

 

[Robb Stark]

I found Buffy/Satsu incredibly boring.

Beyond the "oh wow, Buffy's having sex with a girl" moment (which...was a pretty good moment 🙄), it was as predictable as the sunrise. There was no chance in hell they were making their main character gay, when the main supporting character was already gay, and just discarding future romantic stories with Angel and Spike. They clearly wanted to launch Satsu as a character (but wound up badly mis-writing her late in the season, to the point where she just came off as petulant), and having her hook up with Buffy was the launch pad for that. So that just left Buffy to have a brief but predictable sexual crisis, and that was it. I really, truly do not understand the love some fans have for Satsu.

This one will be a bit more contentious I believe, but Willow and Tara never did anything for me. I liked Oz a lot, but even with that shadow I could never comprehend the appeal of Tara. I completely accept and am fine with the notion that she is Willow's one true love, but when they were together I just felt nothing. It was just a part of the show.

 

[Blaze]

I found Buffy/Satsu incredibly boring.

Beyond the "oh wow, Buffy's having sex with a girl" moment (which...was a pretty good moment 🙄), it was as predictable as the sunrise. There was no chance in hell they were making their main character gay, when the main supporting character was already gay, and just discarding future romantic stories with Angel and Spike. They clearly wanted to launch Satsu as a character (but wound up badly mis-writing her late in the season, to the point where she just came off as petulant), and having her hook up with Buffy was the launch pad for that. So that just left Buffy to have a brief but predictable sexual crisis, and that was it. I really, truly do not understand the love some fans have for Satsu.

My love for Satsu probably comes from the fact that I only read the first 1/2 of season 8, I heard her character went downhill after that. I think it would have made absolutely no sense to have Buffy be gay, I'm actually almost mad that they went that route and made Buffy sleep with a girl because she is so obviously straight, but I just can't help but like their interaction for the first half of the season.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=8404]Blaze[/MENTION]

I think it would have made absolutely no sense to have Buffy be gay, I'm actually almost mad that they went that route and made Buffy sleep with a girl because she is so obviously straight

I don't know, I guess she wasn't straight enough for Faith. Faith's actions in season 3 make little sense if Buffy's a straight girl, I mean, the flirting, the kissing, the dancing...what's the point? Yeah, OK, it's all up to interpretation but I just don't understand how anybody can say with a straight face that Buffy's straight after Satsu, that's just straight up bi-denial.

What else does Buffy have to do to not be considered straight? Like seriously, Buffy's either bisexual or she went to bed with somebody she didn't find attractive, twice, having one of the best nights of her life. Yeah, I know, stupid labels and so on but it just strikes me as big bullshit.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

There was no chance in hell they were making their main character gay, when the main supporting character was already gay, and just discarding future romantic stories with Angel and Spike.

There's nothing left to discard, both of those romantic relationships ended on the show, Buffy/Angel in season 3, Buffy/Spike in season 6. It's not happening.

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

Because the entire time Buffy is "with" Satsu, she's clearly uncomfortable with it, and with her. Buffy may go through a bi-curious stage or two, but the show and the comics make it pretty clear that she's straight. She never hooks up with Faith either, that we're shown at least, so it's tough to comment on that. But yes, labels are dumb. I don't think Buffy sleeping Satsu means "hey! She's gay!" just as I wouldn't think Willow having a one night stand again with Oz means she's suddenly straight. It may sound a little out there, but sometimes I feel the whole rigidly "gay", "straight" label thing and the weight given it is just a construct we create and which only really serves to divide us. It just makes me roll my eyes at times.

And, her romantic ties to both the vampires clearly didn't end with S3 and S6. Angel returns continually to the show and the main arc in S8 revolves around him and Buffy. It may not be a good arc, actually let's be frank, it's crap, but it's there.

And my point was more about the writing, not the character at present time. From a business standpoint, Angel and Spike are very popular characters, the two biggest after Buffy (and before anyone says Willow or Xander, that's just not true. Spike repeatedly gets ranked in polls as one of the most popular characters of either series and Angel got his own spinoff. They're bigger to the show than Willow and Xander, or at the very least, they are by the end). And a huge part of both their drawing power is their ties TO Buffy, and the potential there. It's cool if you don't like that personally, but it's tough to to deny that factor is there. Making their lead gay and throwing the possibility of any future romantic storylines with either Angel or Spike would have been a dumb move. Proof of that is the Twilight arc. That angle, which already makes zero sense, is even worse if Buffy is a lesbian.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

That angle, which already makes zero sense, is even worse if Buffy is a lesbian.

Whoa, all I'm saying, she's not straight. Bisexuality exists, right?

From a business standpoint, Angel and Spike are very popular characters, the two biggest after Buffy (and before anyone says Willow or Xander, that's just not true. Spike repeatedly gets ranked in polls as one of the most popular characters of either series and Angel got his own spinoff. They're bigger to the show than Willow and Xander, or at the very least, they are by the end)

Well, from a business standpoint Willow's comic recently outsold both Spike's and Angel's comics. On the top of that, Willow is the second most important character on the show, Rosenberg and Harris too are an integral part of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Spike and Angel are merely romantic interests, those come and go like Riley.

Making their lead gay and throwing the possibility of any future romantic storylines with either Angel or Spike would have been a dumb move.

Yeah, some people like love triangles, the problem is that this triangle is absolutely detrimental to the lead character, it's simply sucking the life out of her. OK, when the female lead is a soulless piece of cardboard, like say, Bella Swan then love triangles such as this are fine, it's not like she has any personality so like, whatever. But Buffy is not Bella. No, really. Let's say that the writers do want to keep this garbage triangle spinning to keep the feelings of Buffy/Angel and Buffy/Spike supporters unhurt. What can they do? They can either completely ignore Buffy's sex life and focus on the action-adventure and friendship angle or keep doing what they are doing as in Buffy shags somebody, it's completely meaningless and devoid of any emotional impact, rinse repeat, no character development, no transgression, just a shallow, mentally stuck in high school passionless shell. You know, I guess that it's about what's more important or interesting to you, the character or her romantic relationships. Personally, I choose the character, there's plenty of shitty franchises with shitty love triangles and shitty female leads, now Buffy is fairly unique. If she has to marry a girl or madly fall in love with a chaos demon or choose life in solitude or whatever, I'll take it, everything to make her fresh and interesting again. I think that the people responsible need to ask themselves a question, what is more important to the majority of the fans, the character or character's romantic relationships? ( it's just as true about Spike by the way ) If the latter, then they should just turn BtVS into a Twilight clone and be done with it but if it's the former then the love triangle needs to be killed asap and its morbid remains cleansed with nuclear fire. Keeping it alive hasn't exactly help the sales of the comic, has it?

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11194]EVIL UU[/MENTION],

You're making the mistake of believing that character and romantic development are mutually exclusive. You don't have to pick one or the other, and one doesn't have to come at the expense of the other. There's not a major network television series on the planet which doesn't have their lead involved in romantic storylines.

Also, comic sales, compared to the money made from a television franchise, are largely irrelevant. Angel got the spinoff. If Willow was the more financially viable character, why didn't she? She didn't because she's a supporting character. Angel is not. I would also be very interested to see if Willow's book (is it a limited series, or ongoing? I don't know) is selling high because she's never had anything beyond a one-shot before, and if it compares to After the Fall sales. I have no idea on the numbers in that regard though.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

You're making the mistake of believing that character and romantic development are mutually exclusive.

See, that's the problem, there is no romantic development. Riley was the last person Buffy's been in love with and that was in season 4. That's 5 seasons of shag, spit, split. It's boring and predictable, there's no reason to care about any of Buffy's romances anymore because they never lead to anything, she could be as well sleeping with a robot. I mean, she doesn't even talk to her lovers, basically turning into Faith. It's stagnation. All that because one day she might end up be with your vampire of choice™ and maybe get some character development then. Yeah, right.

She didn't because she's a supporting character. Angel is not.

Of course he is. Angel is a supporting character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with at best half of Willow's or Xander's screen time. He is the lead in his own show Angel but that's without the point. On Buffy's show/comic he's not even a sidekick.

Also, comic sales, compared to the money made from a television franchise, are largely irrelevant.

Last time I checked Darkhorse were in the business of selling comic books, not making TV shows, making money off comic book sales, not advertisement and DVD sales. Explain to me, how comic book sales are irrelevant to them?

 

[Robb Stark]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]
See, that's the problem, there is no romantic development. Riley was the last person Buffy's been in love with and that was in season 4. That's 5 seasons of shag, spit, split. It's boring and predictable, there's no reason to care about any of Buffy's romances anymore because they never lead to anything, she could be as well sleeping with a robot. I mean, she doesn't even talk to her lovers, basically turning into Faith. It's stagnation. All that because one day she might end up be with your vampire of choiceâ„¢ and maybe get some character development then. Yeah, right.

I see your point here. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I understand what you're saying, and what you mean.

Of course he is. Angel is a supporting character on Buffy the Vampire Slayer, with at best half of Willow's or Xander's screen time. He is the lead in his own show Angel but that's without the point. On Buffy's show/comic he's not even a sidekick.

Angel's spinoff was approved because the network viewed him as the most financially valuable character after Buffy. That's tough to dispute. If Willow or Xander was considered more valuable, they would have gotten the spinoff. We've talked about this, and disagreed on it, before, in regards to what constitutes a lead supporting character, screen time or value to the plot. I know you feel it's screen time (and I do get your reasoning), but I feel otherwise. After Buffy, Angel is the most important character to the plot in S2. On Buffy's show/comic he has his own comic, so obviously his presence is going to be reduced.

However, as a point, it's a little rich to say Angel is totally irrelevant to the comics. He was a massive part of S8.

Last time I checked Darkhorse were in the business of selling comic books, not making TV shows, making money off comic book sales, not advertisement and DVD sales. Explain to me, how comic book sales are irrelevant to them?

They were irrelevant compared to the level of financial success of the television show. We were discussing Angel and Willow in the context of future value to the franchise and overall past value. I used Angel getting a spinoff, and not Willow, as an example of the value Angel has. However, that being said, moving forward I can appreciate that comic sales take on a larger role, as the T.V. series has concluded. My point however, was that even still, Angel is the more valuable character to the franchise. Willow is only now getting her own comic (and I still don't know if it's ongoing, or a limited series), Angel has had his for years.

 

[Lynn]

I can't really say much about the comics, not having read them. As far as the show(s) are concerned... I could just never get into Buffy/Riley or Fred/Gunn. They just both seemed kinda dull and just... there.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

However, as a point, it's a little rich to say Angel is totally irrelevant to the comics. He was a massive part of S8.

Angel plays exactly the same role in season 8 comic as he had on the show. A villain/romantic interest, it's just that the romantic part got a whole lot more vomit inducing.

My point however, was that even still, Angel is the more valuable character to the franchise.

Obviously, when you take the entire franchise ( BtVS + AtS ) into consideration he is right there after Buffy but on her show and in her comic he is nothing more than a romantic interest. He is completely ancillary to the lead and like other romantic interests he expires ( twice, he is first killed off, Like Tara and Anya, then brought back only because of AtS and send off, like Oz and Riley ) to further the lead's storyline. Willow and Xander do not expire.