Most Evil

[thrasherpix]

It sounds like your saying Drusilla
And Spike are superior because one was religious and another was a poet, but Darla was just a whore .

Yeah, I was downright confused why that was mentioned about Darla since it's so irrelevant, but I bet you're right.

Though it's not the only thing that gave me pause. Like others have said, the bit about Liam not really evil (that we see) or that Lilah isn't less evil just because she was attracted to Wesley (if I were to point out Lilah having a non-evil quality then it would be her taking care of her mother whereas a great many real life people in real life who would boo Lilah would do no such noble thing).

 

[GraceK]

Yeah, I was downright confused why that was mentioned about Darla since it's so irrelevant, but I bet you're right.

Though it's not the only thing that gave me pause. Like others have said, the bit about Liam not really evil (that we see) or that Lilah isn't less evil just because she was attracted to Wesley (if I were to point out Lilah having a non-evil quality then it would be her taking care of her mother whereas a great many real life people in real life who would boo Lilah would do no such noble thing).

For real. I mean, Tony Soprano loves animals and his family but is still a monster. 🙂

 

[fauxindigo]

I'm not saying that being a prostitute is necessarily evil but it's probably not on the the same moral high ground as say the pure, chaste church going girl Drusilla.

 

[GraceK]

I'm not saying that being a prostitute is necessarily evil but it's probably not on the the same moral high ground as say the pure, chaste church going girl Drusilla.

That’s bull. There are many , MANY saintly religious folk who are downright immoral, using their religion as an excuse to judge, ridicule and sometimes murder others. Also, what’s immoral about being a prostitute? Are you saying that having sex is immoral or charging for it is? Sex, and prostitution is only immoral if you subscribe to some idea of puritan morality. It’s much more immoral, in my opinion, to pretend to love someone just to get money or power from them. At least sex for money is honest .

 

[PaulParmar1]

Personally I don't get Harmony being on this list.
Especially if say someone like Lilah who I adore but was much more evil isn't on the list.
Harmony helped out the good guys many times and she never did anything too evil imo.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

I'm not saying that being a prostitute is necessarily evil but it's probably not on the the same moral high ground as say the pure, chaste church going girl Drusilla.

How can there be any good people in a world where sex workers die of syphilis? Being obsessed with your own chastity does not make you a good person. It makes you self involved.

 

[GraceK]

Also, women didn’t have many choices in a Puritan society that Darla seemed to live in. It was marriage or spinsterhood. So she either had to give herself to man and be his actual property, to beat and do with as he wished, or be an unmarried woman with no support or protection. Darla seemed to be an exceptionally strong woman who wasn’t going to be restricted or controlled, and chose her own path which led to sickness and certain death. I don’t think that’s evil in any sense. It was the society she was born into that was more evil IMO

 

[PaulParmar1]

I'm not saying that being a prostitute is necessarily evil but it's probably not on the the same moral high ground as say the pure, chaste church going girl Drusilla.

I'll disagree. Being a prostitute is a valid job imo.
While I think you didn't mean it that way, it does come off in a way like your saying Darla is evil for being a prostitute. There are evil qualities about Darla but having sex should be celebrated for women and men.
It's a part of life.

 

[Fool for Buffy]

I'm not saying that being a prostitute is necessarily evil but it's probably not on the the same moral high ground as say the pure, chaste church going girl Drusilla.

I understand what you're trying to say, but you should try historical context too. @GraceK is right about the society Darla lived in, and I believe it's a herecy called Presentism to judge her for that. We don't know the choices she had to make or the options she was given. She was probably very lonely and abandoned too, from what we know in her scenes in the episode Darla.

 

[fauxindigo]

Immoral doesn't necessarily means evil. I wouldn't equate selling your body with cold blooded murder but I tend to believe selling your body for money isn't good. Your body is sacred and spirituality is more important than our fleshly desires. Having sex with strangers for money is just pure lust and it's vain-- again, I'm not saying lust and vanity are necessarily EVIL but I would say they're shortcomings. I'm gay so trust me, I don't believe consensual sex between adults is wrong and I know all about being judged because of my sexuality- but yeah, I think when you sell your body you degrade yourself and the act of sex in general. I don't think you necessarily have to be in love with a person that you're having sex with for it to be fine- if two people want to just have sex, more power to them, but when it becomes a business transaction, I'm sorry I just lose all respect. I understand it's hard out there and we all have to survive but having sex for money just seems like an easy way out. Sorry if that makes me a judgmental bitch.

 

[Anyanka Bunny Slayer]

Immoral doesn't necessarily means evil. I wouldn't equate selling your body with cold blooded murder but I tend to believe selling your body for money isn't good. Your body is sacred and spirituality is more important than our fleshly desires. Having sex with strangers for money is just pure lust and it's vain-- again, I'm not saying lust and vanity are necessarily EVIL but I would say they're shortcomings. I'm gay so trust me, I don't believe consensual sex between adults is wrong and I know all about being judged because of my sexuality- but yes, when you sell your body you degrade yourself and the act of sex in general. I don't think you necessarily have to be in love with a person that you're having sex with for it to be fine- if two people want to just fuvk, more power to them, but when it becomes a business transaction, I'm sorry I just lose all respect. I understand it's hard out there and we all have to survive but having sex for money just seems like an easy way out. Sorry if that makes me a judgmental bitch.

Honey, the majority of people here are quite judgmental; not just you. 🙂 (And I just noticed you've edited the initial remark out of your post. lol)

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to go work my corner. 😛

 

[GraceK]

esires. Having sex with strangers for money is just pure lust and it's vain-- again, I'm not saying lust and vanity are necessarily EVIL but I would say they're shortcomings.

Actually, I would think it would be the opposite of lust. Lust is banging a dude in the corner when you just meet him because he’s hot and your horny.

So according to your values, it’s much more respectable to be sold like chattel into marriage and lay under a man with no choice ? Which, by the way, is the exact same thing you seem to disdain, because in exchange for sleeping with their husband, they get a roof over their head and food in their mouth. Especially in that time period. At least with prostitution the woman has some control and her own money. The cynic in me says that all of life is a business transaction.

And somehow you think that Lilah, who sold her soul for riches and participated in murder and torture, as a human, is somehow above Darla who sold her body? It must be nice to live on your lofty mountain.
 

nderstand it's hard out there and we all have to survive but having sex for money just seems like an easy way out.

yes, being a social outcast and dying of syphalis is the easy way out .

 

[fauxindigo]

You make good points Grace. Being a prostitute really isn't about lust in the long run because it's just about money (and maybe power?)... but I'm sure lust factors into the equation, especially at the beginning.

My bad- Lilah should've been on the list but I never said Darla was more evil than her or anyone actually. I said Angelus, Warren & Caleb were the most evil. Lilah certainly was more evil than Darla because Darla didn't kill anyone (that we know of) until she was a soulless vampire, whereas Lilah did a lot of evil while human and still with a soul (presumably).

I'll give you that back in the day being a prostitute was more understandable seeing as options were limited and the world was much harder to survive in, but what about today? Sure our world is just as, if not more, fuvked up than ever, and the economy sucks but most people work "normal" jobs. When I said it was an easy way out, I was thinking about modern times. I just don't think you need to fuvk people to get money!! People just want quick and easy cash and that is one hell of a way to get it. I'm sure it's fun too unless you end up with syphilis.

Also, I don't think most women in arranged marriages had/have much of a choice and marrying someone for money is almost as bad but at least they're only sleeping with the one person (in theory).

 

[GraceK]

You make good points Grace. Being a prostitute really isn't about lust in the long run because it's just about money (and maybe power?)... but I'm sure lust factors into the equation, especially at the beginning.

My bad- Lilah should've been on the list but I never said Darla was more evil than her or anyone actually. I said Angelus, Warren & Caleb were the most evil. Lilah certainly was more evil than Darla because Darla didn't kill anyone (that we know of) until she was a soulless vampire, whereas Lilah did a lot of evil while human and still with a soul (presumably).

I'll give you that back in the day being a prostitute was more understandable seeing as options were limited and the world was much harder to survive in, but what about today? Sure our world is just as, if not more, fuvked up than ever, and the economy sucks but most people work "normal" jobs. When I said it was an easy way out, I was thinking about modern times. I just don't think you need to fuvk people to get money!! People just want quick and easy cash and that is one hell of a way to get it. I'm sure it's fun too unless you end up with syphilis.

I guess I just feel like your painting all prostitutes with the same brush and it’s a mean one. 🙁

About modern day prostitution, I feel like everyone whores themselves out in some way. Instagram models who make a living on their looks, businessman who screw people over for more money, musicians who sell out for a higher paycheck, or even the shlub who works at a job he hates for the paycheck and secretly resents his boss are all basically prostitutes, whether it’s there own morals or principles they are selling. On a less metaphorical note, is the beautiful young girl who marries an older man for money morally superior to the prostitute who exchanges personal time for cash? Is it better to manipulate someone and make them think you care about them and have sex with them with no real feeling somehow better than the hooker whose intentions are honest and upfront?

Also, if you take a look at what the average on the street hookers life Is like, it’s usually extremely dangerous and sad . Hundreds of prostitutes are murdered and forgotten about, to diminish these women as lustful vain pleasure seekers is pretty narrow minded. We don’t know what circumstances led these women on this path and it’s harsh and IMO, wrong to judge them.

In Darlas case, which is on topic, all we see of her human life is her dying slowly of a STD. We know nothing else of what she had been through or why she ended up there. To judge her and consider Drusilla somehow better morally because she’s a Virgin seems very simplistic. Not everything is so black and white.

 

[fauxindigo]

I guess I just feel like your painting all prostitutes with the same brush and it’s a mean one. 🙁

About modern day prostitution, I feel like everyone whores themselves out in some way. Instagram models who make a living on their looks, businessman who screw people over for more money, musicians who sell out for a higher paycheck, or even the shlub who works at a job he hates for the paycheck and secretly resents his boss are all basically prostitutes, whether it’s there own morals or principles they are selling. On a less metaphorical note, is the beautiful young girl who marries an older man for money morally superior to the prostitute who exchanges personal time for cash? Is it better to manipulate someone and make them think you care about them and have sex with them with no real feeling somehow better than the hooker whose intentions are honest and upfront?

Also, if you take a look at what the average on the street hookers life Is like, it’s usually extremely dangerous and sad . Hundreds of prostitutes are murdered and forgotten about, to diminish these women as lustful vain pleasure seekers is pretty narrow minded. We don’t know what circumstances led these women on this path and it’s harsh and IMO, wrong to judge them.

In Darlas case, which is on topic, all we see of her human life is her dying slowly of a STD. We know nothing else of what she had been through or why she ended up there. To judge her and consider Drusilla somehow better morally because she’s a Virgin seems very simplistic. Not everything is so black and white.

eek.. now I feel like Riley. I swear I'm not a bigot. And I've probably had way too easy of a life to judge sex workers. Honestly, thank you for making me think about it from a different point of view.

 

[GraceK]

eek.. now I feel like Riley. I swear I'm not a bigot. And I've probably had way too easy of a life to judge sex workers. Honestly, thank you for making me think about it from a different point of view.

Thank you for engaging in this discussion respectfully🙂 it’s nice to have a discussion about a hot topic and not have it dissolve into a fight. 🙂 I love this board for this very reason.

 

[AlphaFoxtrot]

Hmm, upon reflection, the Beast. Well, in absolute terms. He slaughtered thousands, murdered Ra (I think) and destroyed his holy artifact, may have a book of the Bible written about him, bought about a rain of fire, acted as an agent of a Higher Power who was trying to invade the World, practiced Necromancy, crushed Wolfram & Hart and blotted out the Sun. In Moral Terms, I still vote Warren, on the grounds he elected to do evil and can't fall back on being a monster or drunk on magical power. And I suppose you can fall back on Jasmine, since the Beast was just her lackey.

 

[WillowFromBuffy]

Prostitution it is definitely not about lust and vanity. It is not about empowerment or money, either. Sex workers subject themselves to violence from their clients, from pimps, from abuse by the police, from venereal disease, they are shunned by society, thrown out of their homes, they are often not citizens of the countries they work in...

I hope the first thing Darla did as a vampire was run through her client list and drink them all dry.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Let’s remember as we discuss this topic to make it about the argument, not the person.

 

[EarthLogic]

who was the most evil in your opinion? Obviously spike and dru are out because they were rather good before they were vamped. Even Lilah can't be considered among the most evil of humans because she showed some (albeit very little) of a softer side with Wesley... Even though she seemed very evil, it did seem like she had feelings for Wesley.

I've just read this poll properly and I don't understand these exclusions. Spike and Dru are out just because they were good as humans, yet Harmony - who was vain as a human, but not really evil, and completely ineffectual as a demon - is in? The question does say 'and/or life as a undead', so surely their soulless actions count? And why does Lilah not count simply because she showed some affection for Wesley? Surely she is comparable to Anya since she chose to work for W&H and did some pretty deplorable things as an employee just like Anya chose to become a vengeance demon.

And Faith should be on the list too if characters like Harmony and Veruca are!