Most Romantic Couple in the Buffyverse

[Chosen Enemy]

I am saying that if the love is real than sooner or later the breathing ought to not be enough, that's all. Or it is time to move on. If the couple cannot resolve their issues and be honest/caring with each other, they are not truly a couple but two wistful people sharing the same space.

Yes, but my point is that even if in one moment where there's nothing romantic, there's still love. Doesn't matter what's after or before. The feeling always remains, no matter what you do (if love still exists of course). I'm not talking a whole relationship. That's just an extreme example.

For example, in IWRY, where Buffy and Angel are sitting together, drinking tea. Nothing romantic there (yet). They still love each other. It's one little moment, but the love in still there in this little moment. Even in much shorter moment than this, the love isn't gone.

 

[InsaneMystic]

In the long run though, the (sexual liaison) devoid of romantic feelings is usually doomed.

Unsurprisingly, I think it's the complete opposite. Only strictly avoiding romance prevents said doom, at least in my experience (working fine for almost four years by now in my own 'ship; I'm quite certain it would have crashed and burned at least three years ago if we had allowed romance into it). "Best friends with benefits" is the only worthwhile and functional way to go, IMO... a model exemplified in the Buffyverse by S7 Spuffy - with the exact amount of said "benefits" left wide open for interpretation - and most explicitly by Tillow, excepting the romance encroaching on them in S6 caused by Willow going Dark (one word: "Forget"... one of the few romantic Tillow scenes, but it's immediately hardcore.)

 

[ladydorotea]

Unsurprisingly, I think it's the complete opposite. Only strictly avoiding romance prevents said doom, at least in my experience (working fine for almost four years by now in my own 'ship; I'm quite certain it would have crashed and burned at least three years ago if we had allowed romance into it). "Best friends with benefits" is the only worthwhile and functional way to go, IMO... a model exemplified in the Buffyverse by S7 Spuffy - with the exact amount of said "benefits" left wide open for interpretation - and most explicitly by Tillow, excepting the romance encroaching on them in S6 caused by Willow going Dark (one word: "Forget"... one of the few romantic Tillow scenes, but it's immediately hardcore.

Well, 4 years vs 22 , lets not go there, OK? I prefer it my way - with romance and shared caring and still kicking. Spuffy in S7 ought to have been 'without benefits' - otherwise it would have looked pretty ugly, going from attempted rape to banging-without-romance. And wide open or not 'no you don't' was pretty definitive to me. Overall, Spuffy always appeared quite dysfunctional and mutually destructive to me - but what you are suggesting is dysfunctional turned into a way of living.

 

[Taake]

I think it's important to remember that everyone has their own definition of what 'romance' is, there are many different definitions of it because it's all relative to who you are.

If you find Bangel romantic or Spuffy or Tillow or whichever couple it probably tells more about what you find romantic than it says about how romantic that pairing really is. To me it's strictly subjective, and it's okay if we disagree cause obviously we can't all like the same.... what's cheesy to one maybe great for another.

🙂

 

[InsaneMystic]

Spuffy in S7 ought to have been 'without benefits' - otherwise it would have looked pretty ugly, going from attempted rape to banging-without-romance. And wide open or not 'no you don't' was pretty definitive to me.

It actually looks pretty pretty to me - the empowering message of hope that's inherent in surviving romance, and coming back from it by taking responsibility is one of the most wonderful and inspiring things I've seen on TV. The "no you don't", to me, just showed that Spike is better at practising than at preaching ([insert contrast to You-Know-Who here] 😛), calling back to his "love isn't brains, kids" speech from S3... a view of his which I fundamentally disagree with, even though it fits Bangel (and Sprusilla, and S5/6 Spuffy) perfectly. IMO, the scene shows Spike to not have overcome his (mis-)definition of what love is, even though he's become pretty damn fine at acting lovingly (for the first time since his siring)... it's blatantly obvious to me that Buffy does, of course, love him. 🙂

but what you are suggesting is dysfunctional turned into a way of living.

Not sure which part of what I said you're referring to (possible Spuffy benefits in particular, or purging one's love life of romance in general); but either way, like [MENTION=9799]Taake[/MENTION] said... suum cuique. "Dysfunctional turned into a way of living" actually would be exactly how I'd describe knowingly allowing romance into one's relationship. If it works for you, and for 22 years running, I'm flabbergasted... and more than a little bit scared of you, to be frank. But it's become obvious anyway that your and my worldviews hardly have any point of contact in common, so why should it be different in this case? So if this actually promotes your happiness while not damaging that of your partner or anyone else's, kudos to you, even if I can't figure out how on Earth you manage to pull that trick off. 😉

 

[Gum Gnome33]

Romance is a shared interests and being able to discuss/resolve problems at all times, deep interest in each others well-being, caring and above all - selflessness. And it is always a two-way street.

Honestly, I completely agree with this. And this is exactly what Spuffy in season 7 is to me. Absolutely!

Actually, you cannot 'just stand next to each other and breath' forever. Because , lets face it, life moves on... And the feelings that go nowhere grow stale - sort of like stale bread. Or resolve themselves into something altogether opposite - there are plenty of examples of mutual fatigue that settles on the couples that squabble and fight all the time

Fascinatingly, you've just described what I think of Bangel in season 3 and on!

It's truly amazing that two people can have very similar definitions of love, romance or lack thereof and then both find them and find voids therein, in different pairings, thereby creating an inverse relationship in both. We can agree that love and romance should look like X and that it's time to move on when it looks like Y and yet see this:

Spuffy=X
Bangel=Y

Bangel=X
Spuffy=Y

It means the show is truly great IMO.

 

[ladydorotea]

It means the show is truly great IMO.

It mostly means that we are very different people, with very different outlooks on life and what constitutes a romance - mostly defined by our different life experiences. (For starters, I bet you have never been in a situation of attempted rape.) But its OK.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

It mostly means...with very different outlooks on life and what constitutes a romance

But that doesn't seem likely if I've pointed out to you that I already agree with your given definition of what constitutes a romance. Unless you actually define it differently from how you've stated it here. What it does mean is that someone can view the show differently and get things out of the pairings that another doesn't, and vice versa. Ergo, fascinating.

(For starters, I bet you have never been in a situation of attempted rape.) But its OK.

I won't be sharing information that personal on here, but suffice it to say that your assumptions are far from accurate.

 

[ladydorotea]

But that doesn't seem likely if I've pointed out to you that I already agree with your given definition of what constitutes a romance. Unless you actually define it differently from how you've stated it here. What it does mean is that someone can view the show differently and get things out of the pairings that another doesn't, and vice versa. Ergo, fascinating.

I cannot see how you can watch a couple beat each other bloody for entire period of having a sexual liaison and take it for romantic in a sense that I described. Same as I cannot see how honest and open expression of feelings can ever appear to be boring. Therefore I assume that our perception of life is very different - because we seem to have polar opposite perception of ugly vs romantic.

 

[Gum Gnome33]

I cannot see how you can watch a couple beat each other bloody for entire period of having a sexual liaison and take it for romantic in a sense that I described...Therefore I assume that our perception of life is very different - because we seem to have polar opposite perception of ugly vs romantic.

Well that'd be true only if I'd said that I find season 6 Spuffy to be romantic. Did I? No. I said that your definition, (and mine), of romance is in season 7 Spuffy. Again, for reference:

Romance is a shared interests and being able to discuss/resolve problems at all times, deep interest in each others well-being, caring and above all - selflessness. And it is always a two-way street.

That is how I see Spuffy in season 7. NOT season 6. I don't believe Spuffy is romantic in season 6; I believe Spike's devotion to Buffy in that season and beyond, (and indeed a creature without a soul loving another being so completely), to be romantic, (though as it's once sided I recognize there's a difference).

I hope that's clear and that there will be no more accusations of me finding beatings to be romantic from this point on.

Also for the record re: Bangel: I never said I found "honest and open expression of feelings" to be boring. I said that Bangel in season 3 and beyond for me fits this description of yours:

Because , lets face it, life moves on... And the feelings that go nowhere grow stale

. Life had moved on and their feelings couldn't go anywhere which is precisely why Angel left her, for the good of both of them. That's how I see it.

But again if you take nothing else away from this post, (skim it, whatever you like), it should be that I never, ever, ever, said violence was romantic. Okay?

 

[ladydorotea]

[MENTION=11014]Gum Gnome33[/MENTION]

To sum up on my side - not only I am revolted by violence, I also think that it poisons the relationship on the fundamental level that - once this kind of a barrier is breached - there is no repair. I realize BtVS is a fantasy show and all, but, I cannot see Spuffy as romantic in S7 either. Soul or not, whats done is done , and post attempted rape situation needs to be healed, not forgotten and buried under pretense of not speaking about it. Through entire S7 I see mutual co-dependent guilt and attempts at reparations, and the topic of the past being carefully avoided by both sides of the 'couple'. And that's why they are not - romantic or a couple for me, and never will be. As for Bangel 'moving on' - it just never happens - because there is no cooling down or clear loss of interest on either side. They are as always - tragically separated by fate - but never not caring about each other. And hence lies the difference - they are kept apart not because they no longer love each other but because once they are together the story ends. (And it becomes boring according to Joss.)

 

[FlowerPower]

Unsurprisingly, I think it's the complete opposite. Only strictly avoiding romance prevents said doom, at least in my experience (working fine for almost four years by now in my own 'ship; I'm quite certain it would have crashed and burned at least three years ago if we had allowed romance into it). "Best friends with benefits" is the only worthwhile and functional way to go, IMO... a model exemplified in the Buffyverse by S7 Spuffy - with the exact amount of said "benefits" left wide open for interpretation - and most explicitly by Tillow, excepting the romance encroaching on them in S6 caused by Willow going Dark (one word: "Forget"... one of the few romantic Tillow scenes, but it's immediately hardcore.)

And if you asked Willow at any time in her life whether Tara was her "best friend with benefits", she'd have a violent reaction of "No!". This dynamic is particularly clear with Willow who through S4-6 referred to Buffy and Xander as her best friends and Tara as her girlfriend, her lesbian type lover, her always.

And same thing with Buffy. I don't see Buffy ever calling Spike her "best friends with benefits". How often do Buffy and Spike to "best friend" things? Do they watch movies or freely talk about their other relationships without awkwardness?

You seem to grafting a When Harry Met Sally type appeal onto Spuffy and Tillow to make it more appealing to you when those relationships were anything but.

IMO, none of the romances were "best friends with benefits" because the Willow/Xander/Buffy best friend was so clearly carved out as the best friends. However, if I were to pick the pairing that had the easier camaraderie, who could spend a few hours playing mini golf or playing computer games but not deeply staring into each other's eyes or fighting WITH PASSION, who have enough in common to talk about non-love thing, actual *best friend* things- it would be Willow/Oz in running landslide. Seconded by Giles/Jenny.

 

[InsaneMystic]

And if you asked Willow at any time in her life whether Tara was her "best friend with benefits", she'd have a violent reaction of "No!". This dynamic is particularly clear with Willow who through S4-6 referred to Buffy and Xander as her best friends and Tara as her girlfriend, her lesbian type lover, her always.

And that invalidates "best friends with benefits" exactly how? I didn't see any romance between Tara and Willow (not until Willow started turning dark - then she switched into high octane romance mode) - they were honest, caring, and comfy with each other. That's friendship.

And same thing with Buffy. I don't see Buffy ever calling Spike her "best friends with benefits". How often do Buffy and Spike to "best friend" things? Do they watch movies or freely talk about their other relationships without awkwardness?

Spike is the only one to stand beside her and try get her up on her feet again after "Empty Places", and chides the rest of the bunch out for being ungrateful. Pretty much seems best friends to me, the one to still be there when the other friendships are strained to near breaking point. As for the benefits - well, they sleep cuddled up against each other in Touched, I never saw Buffy doing that with the other Scoobies quite as often. 😛

You seem to grafting a When Harry Met Sally type appeal onto Spuffy and Tillow to make it more appealing to you when those relationships were anything but.

Erm, what?? What do Harry and Sally have do do with anything here? They're sure not what I'd call BFwB in any part of the entire movie (possibly, but not too probably, excluding the time jump epilogue - we don't see them ever living their marriage together, so the judgment there has to remain reserved... 😛) - the moment they bring benefits into play, the friendship goes down the drain, doesn't it? H&S isn't rated as a rom com for no reason, you know.

IMO, none of the romances were "best friends with benefits" because the Willow/Xander/Buffy best friend was so clearly carved out as the best friends.

Seeing as Willow was friends with Tara, and closer to Tara than to Xander or Buffy, I'd strongly disagree.

However, if I were to pick the pairing that had the easier camaraderie, who could spend a few hours playing mini golf or playing computer games but not deeply staring into each other's eyes or fighting WITH PASSION, who have enough in common to talk about non-love thing, actual *best friend* things- it would be Willow/Oz in running landslide. Seconded by Giles/Jenny.

Agreed on Ozlow (much as their ship bothers me, I know my dislike for it is for completely irrational reasons, not because they aren't BFwB), not quite so sure about Giles/Jenny... I do love them together, but there sure was a lot of awkwardness between them in the start (mostly due to Giles' extreme Britishness 😀), and the delusionality he went into in IOHEFY after her death. There's quite noticeable amounts of romance there that'd get them off the list; I do trust they could have become BFwB if Jenny hadn't be killed by Angelus.

 

[FlowerPower]

And that invalidates "best friends with benefits" exactly how? I didn't see any romance between Tara and Willow (not until Willow started turning dark - then she switched into high octane romance mode) - they were honest, caring, and comfy with each other. That's friendship.

Tara couldn't even be honest enough with Willow to inform her of Tara's presumed species or anything about where she came from. The one time that Tara had a secret that seemed worth telling and Tara couldn't be honest and had to turn to measures to actively conceal it. And Willow not telling Buffy and Xander about Tara and Tara being offended by that in S4 was pure romance- Willow was afraid of coming out and kinda enjoyed the sentimentality of having Tara to herself.

Spike is the only one to stand beside her and try get her up on her feet again after "Empty Places", and chides the rest of the bunch out for being ungrateful. Pretty much seems best friends to me, the one to still be there when the other friendships are strained to near breaking point. As for the benefits - well, they sleep cuddled up against each other in Touched, I never saw Buffy doing that with the other Scoobies quite as often. 😛

Season 7 Spuffy is an instance where they're not best friends *and* they have no benefits! Yelling at other people and punching the new leader in the face seems like classic boyfriend macho behavior. "You dishonored my girl and now I'm going to punch you to the ground so you learn that I'm right! Because nothing is as appropriate in a disagreement about battle strategies endangering young teens as bashing the entire group and some unasked for punching." And you're the only person in the world that considers the "cuddling" best friendliness. It was superimposed on all the other couples ****ing- it was intended to look like chaste romance.

Seeing as Willow was friends with Tara, and closer to Tara than to Xander or Buffy, I'd strongly disagree.

Willow was more dramatic about her relationship with Tara than her relationship with Buffy and Xander. However, I don't consider it definite that Willow was genuinely closer to Tara.

Willow didn't spend as much time with Xander but it's interesting in your romance v. best friend analysis, Tara's death turns Willow into a psychoathic demi-monster but her friendship with Xander redeems her and raises her up.

However more generally, I still thought that Willow had purer love and more easy familiarity with Buffy than Tara. Tara has her quiet moments of intimacy and magic in S4 but Willow can compartmentalize that for a whole year and give Buffy her roommate time, her school time, her demon fighting and risk her life time and want more the whole time. The In in Team makes it clear that Willow will go hang with Tara if Buffy rejects Willow. When Willow was dealing with magic addiction, Buffy was there for her and Tara wasn't. Buffy and Willow have no trouble arguing loudly and being best friends once the argument has passed. Willow covers up whatever bothers her in her relationship with Tara/Willow because she doesn't want Tara to leave her.

Agreed on Ozlow (much as their ship bothers me, I know my dislike for it is for completely irrational reasons, not because they aren't BFwB), not quite so sure about Giles/Jenny... I do love them together, but there sure was a lot of awkwardness between them in the start (mostly due to Giles' extreme Britishness 😀), and the delusionality he went into in IOHEFY after her death. There's quite noticeable amounts of romance there that'd get them off the list; I do trust they could have become BFwB if Jenny hadn't be killed by Angelus.

[/QUOTE]

Giles/Jenny were shown doing best-friendly things from going to a football game to debating the literature on the March of St. Vigius. Even when Jenny took Giles to see Monster Trucks and Giles hated it, it was an opportunity to get out and do something other than ARGUE PASSIONATELY and stare into each other's eyes and smooth like most couples. They definitely had interests and jobs in common and wanted to make the other even more aware of their differing interest (computers, old books) and by The Dark Age, they're trading books made spicy by Jenny's mischievous sense of humor.

Like when Willow and Tara ever go out alone to a fun thing other than the tragically interrupted World Culture Fair....which Willow really wanted to invite Buffy and Dawn to. Did Buffy and Spike do anything other than snark, fight demons, shag and have sexual-tension laden angsnt moments and be in love until it kills them both. No. Hardly two "best friends" according to any independent standard of what best friends do compared to lovers.

 

[InsaneMystic]

[MENTION=11556]FlowerPower[/MENTION]... there's some good points you're making there. You may well be in the process of ruining Tillow for me. 🙁 I can't answer to all that right now, feeling dizzy and stunned, and gotta let that sink in.


Two things I can get to, though:

- What does people ****ing have to do with romance? Sex and romance are two seperate things, that in themselves have nothing at all to do with each other.

- Whatever "independent standard of what best friends do compared to lovers" are you talking about? I don't have a clue what kind of expectation (societal?) you're referring to there; I don't see how one would do different things with friends than with lovers, categorically... with the one possible exception of sex.

 

[FlowerPower]

- What does people ****ing have to do with romance? Sex and romance are two seperate things, that in themselves have nothing at all to do with each other.

- Whatever "independent standard of what best friends do compared to lovers" are you talking about? I don't have a clue what kind of expectation (societal?) you're referring to there; I don't see how one would do different things with friends than with lovers, categorically... with the one possible exception of sex.

To put it in terms that we can both agree on, we would never consider Bangel anywhere near the vicinity of "friends" because what they do is fight demons, smooch and angst about their problems with appropriate melodramatic or sentimental music in the background and ARGUE PASSIONATELY. Seeing them come out of a movie theater was totally weird in Enemies. Angel's best present was his leather jacket as a brooding stranger and the Claudaugh ring as a lover- when he had to give Buffy an actual present that Buffy could interact with as a person, he was stuck on old poems. It's romance where things are hot and heavy and you *feel* in love but there's little social or mental connection.

On the other end of the spectrum, we have Willow/Oz. When Willow/Oz go to a basketball game with Xander or take in a show at the Bronze or go to movies (Phases) or play Twister (cut scene from Revelations) or going to frat parties (referenced and done in Fear Itself), it's done as a couple but it's things that you can see friends doing.

I just think that to really be "best friends with benefits", you need to be "best friends". On that level, none of the relationships on BtVS apply except for Fluking!Xander/Willow. (Anya may have considered Xander her best friend but Xander most definitely didn't consider Anya his best friend. My gut tells me that Tara would say that she doesn't really have a best friend- she has a girlfriend and a group of friends.)

In order to even get the vague connection to "best friends with benefits" even if you can't literally fit the bill, you need to have some of the things that characterize "best friends" on this show. Many shared interests. An ability to leave the sweaty palms/angsty arguments part of the relationship to do light-hearted things that *de-stress* your life. A level of support and camaraderie that can be completely decoupled (heh!) from intimacy or desired intimacy. More of a mental connection than a physical connection. Willow/Tara and Buffy/Spike don't do that. Just look at Buffy/Willow as a comparison to Willow/Tara.

 

[FlowerPower]

InsaneMystic agrees: excellent points. you're breaking my shipper heart.

Aw, InsaneMystic. I do agree with your broader point that there's something empty and kind of obnoxious about the Romance! of purely sweaty palms and angsty fights. Reasoned support and warm companionship of friendship should win out over that kind of romance every time.

I'm emphatically not a Spuffy shipper nor a Tillow shipper and I feel pretty strongly that there are no Best Friends with Benefits On This Show, perhaps because I'm such a Core Four centric viewer. However, I will say that I see why people argue that Willow/Tara was more than Big Romantic Gestures and why there should have been the potential to build a lifelong commitment that made them happy instead of angst. Particularly on Willow's side of things. Willow figuring out a way to introduce Tara to her friends and make her a part of that life even though she was terrified of coming out and then when Willow did come out, Willow trying to make Buffy and Xander honest-to-goodness friends of Tara who would come to Tara's birthday for Tara is the act of a friend. It's more earthy and grounded and ultimately helpful than Big Declarations of Love. Willow restoring Tara's sanity is the typical big flashy heroism of a Buffyverse Lover but Willow taking Crazy!Tara out on the road with them instead of leaving her in the hospital with the other brainsucked victims and doing unglamarous things like feeding her and changing her is more down-to-earth than empty romance. Seriously, can you get less "romantic" than picking out spit up food out of your hair from your brain-sucked infantalized girlfriend?

I think that if Willow was just in her relationship with Tara for Star!Crossed!Romance with nothing more grounded, she would have kept their S4 relationship as just secret roundez-vous in Tara's room like the majority of S3 Bangel interactions were kept at Angel's house. Then after coming out, Willow would have been laisez-faire about whether Tara found a social life in the Scoobies, while insisting that them having each other was the important thing and mattered above all else. And when Tara was brainsucked, Willow would have had some overwrought angsty scene where she surrendered Tara to the doctors with some melodramatic follow-up about how SHE LOVED TARA MOST! and this stuff keeps happening to WILLOW! And of course, Willow does go in that mode for romance in S6. She mind-wipes Tara FOR LOVE and melodramatics about how life is so hard or whatever.

I'm not really a big Tara fan but I sort of see how she really missed out on having a long enough period that wasn't under the cloud of her carrying the big demon lie or under the cloud of Willow going dark. I'll never be a big Tara fan because she had three big challenges in her life- dealing with her supposed demonness, dealing with Willow's encroaching darkness and responding to Buffy's direct cry for help in Dead Things- and she punted on all of them, to say the least. However, I'd like to think and I do believe that there's smaller scenes that indicate that she could have played a more supportive or down to earth role in Willow's life if they had more time together.

Still despite all that, I don't see the Best Friends with Benefits. And Willow/Tara had more problems than fans who want to categorize it as grounded domestic loveliness will admit. And I *really* don't see the Best Friends with Benefits in Spuffy. I can't even make a nod that direction.

 

[Buffy Summers]

Could we please return to the actual topic of this thread, which is, opinions on who is the most romantic couple in the Buffyverse. Not whether romance equals love, not whether Spuffy is better than Bangel, etc.

 

[strawberryeve]

I'd say Fred and Wesley and Spike and Drusilla