Mutiny of 'Buffy'

[phoenixrising]

Was mulling this one over and had some thoughts about when everyone gangs up on Buffy and kicks her out in 'Empty Spaces'.

Buffy admits she had a superiority complex earlier in the season, but in 'Empty Spaces' Anya says Buffy thinks she's better than anyone else and everyone else backs her up.

My question is: why shouldn't Buffy think this?

Look back; for seven years, Buffy has been told that she is the only one that can save the world, defeat the evil, etc, etc. So she finally starts to believe it and they call her on it? The hypocrisy of the characters rose to a high point in that episode and really infuriated me.

Anyone else agree?

 

[Spike My Darlin]

Every character in that scene who betrayed Buffy were ungrateful little s***s. Faith is a Slayer, she has the strength, the speed, the healing, the agility, that Buffy has, but she lacked the one thing everyone else in the room had, the experience. Sure Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn, all been through what Buffy has, but none of them have had to make the decisions she has had to, the sacrifices she has, the mental problems she has had because of who she is and the what she has done because of it. She is THE Slayer, even evil recognizes that fact. Not a single person in that room would be alive if it wasn't for her, and all she gets from them is betrayal, complaints, and bickering, and not even one apology after "The Great" Faith royally ****s up and looses Potentials in a trap any fool could see a mile away.

 

[Eternie]

I think it all comes down to the panic and stress of the time. Buffy makes a mistake and so they all jump on her and go for the only other option.

I'm not defending them because that episode made me cry - I was stunned how they could be so disrespectful. Though I don't even necessarily think it's about respect, just common sense.

Then Faith screws up and they see that actually Buffy is the best girl for the job. Well, the best available girl.

I do think they were incredibly hypocrital of course.

 

[SlayerThe]

My question is: why shouldn't Buffy think this?

Look back; for seven years, Buffy has been told that she is the only one that can save the world, defeat the evil, etc, etc. So she finally starts to believe it and they call her on it? The hypocrisy of the characters rose to a high point in that episode and really infuriated me.

Anyone else agree?

As much as I hate to say it, she really is superior to them. Not just because she has powers but because of the choices she has made. She was chosen because she was the best girl to take the reigns. And she has done an amazing job, time and time again thwarting evil that no other slayer has.

Every character in that scene who betrayed Buffy were ungrateful little s***s. Faith is a Slayer, she has the strength, the speed, the healing, the agility, that Buffy has, but she lacked the one thing everyone else in the room had, the experience. Sure Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn, all been through what Buffy has, but none of them have had to make the decisions she has had to, the sacrifices she has, the mental problems she has had because of who she is and the what she has done because of it. She is THE Slayer, even evil recognizes that fact. Not a single person in that room would be alive if it wasn't for her, and all she gets from them is betrayal, complaints, and bickering, and not even one apology after "The Great" Faith royally ****s up and looses Potentials in a trap any fool could see a mile away.

First of all, I've always believed that Buffy was stronger than Faith but I have to say that it's very clear that Faith is in no way as agile as Buffy. We've seen Buffy jump 20 feet in the air, flip around a room and other impressive acrobatics, but Faith, nothing.

Now on to the discussion.

It was so ironic that they cast out Buffy for getting potentials killed but yet they all rally behind Faith, who in one event gets more potentials killed than Buffy did in 4 months.

I'm not defending them because that episode made me cry - I was stunned how they could be so disrespectful. Though I don't even necessarily think it's about respect, just common sense.

Especially Dawn. How could you do that to someone who gave their life up for your's two years ago? Dropped out of school to take care for you. Got a crappy job to help pay for your things.

And when you really think about it, Buffy got kicked out a house that was her sole property. And they ate her food. Such meanies.

 

[Xander]

Girls and their hormones, never ends well. Although I think it was just that, a fear of impending doom led them to pick holes in Buffy. I dont think they ever said "When Buffy gets back we're going to kick her out of her own house" but it was just the heat of the moment. It was ungreatful of Dawn but teenagers will be teenagers. However its not too dissimilar to Buffy rejecting Giles earlier in the season. In her eyes he did something wrong and she did not want to forgive him, thus rejected him. However she just refused to train with him, rather than going to his hosue (whever that is now) and kicking him out.

While I don't agree with the message I think Emma delivered this in such a great way:

"But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us."

Although, thinking about what she said she has some point. Buffy never did earn her advantages before she became a Slayer, but personally I think during her course as a Slayer she earnt the right in the end. Reward then reasoning, or reasoning then reward eh?

 

[SlayerThe]

While I don't agree with the message I think Emma delivered this in such a great way:

"But we don't know. We don't know if you're actually better. I mean, you came into the world with certain advantages, sure. I mean, that's the legacy. But you didn't earn it. You didn't work for it. You've never had anybody come up to you and say you deserve these things more than anyone else. They were just handed to you. So that doesn't make you better than us. It makes you luckier than us."

Although, thinking about what she said she has some point. Buffy never did earn her advantages before she became a Slayer, but personally I think during her course as a Slayer she earnt the right in the end. Reward then reasoning, or reasoning then reward eh?

But isn't that the reason why Buffy is the slayer or such a great slayer? Because she was the one girl who could do the best. Which means she did deserve the powers of the chosen because she had the ability to put the greater good in front of her own motives.

Not every girl could do the things Buffy could do. I know most people wouldn't kill their lover or sacrifice themselves.

And personally I would not think of being the slayer as a reward. Granted the powers may be awesome but the things you would have to give up outweigh the benefits of super strength.

 

[Xander]

See thats the thing, I always thought Slayers were chosen at random. I never saw it as someone (somebodies even) chosing one particular girl. Okay so that would be the better way but I always saw the Slayer as some big mystic thing so nobody gets to chose because nobody has the power to shift that kind of power around. I mean if there were, couldn't they have been approached when the whole two slayer issue came about?

 

[Eternie]

See thats the thing, I always thought Slayers were chosen at random. I never saw it as someone (somebodies even) chosing one particular girl. Okay so that would be the better way but I always saw the Slayer as some big mystic thing so nobody gets to chose because nobody has the power to shift that kind of power around. I mean if there were, couldn't they have been approached when the whole two slayer issue came about?

I think it's probably utterly random. That's the only way it could really work.

Buffy was the exception remember - most potentials had a Watcher before they got the powers. So they must find potentials at birth in which case how are they going to know they're up to the job?

I can see where Anya was coming from, even if I don't agree with her.

 

[SlayerThe]

I think it's probably utterly random. That's the only way it could really work.

Buffy was the exception remember - most potentials had a Watcher before they got the powers. So they must find potentials at birth in which case how are they going to know they're up to the job?

I can see where Anya was coming from, even if I don't agree with her.

But then why are potentials isolated? Potentials are able to receive the power. It seems like there would be some sort of hierarchy in potentials:

Potential #1 would be a great slayer therefore she is called but just in case something happens, Potential #2, a slightly less qualified candidate, is chosen.

Without the selection process, any wacko could be the slayer. The use of potentials and the selection weaves out the crazies and finds the most capable one.

That's just my theory though.

And a lot of potentials, like Buffy, did not have a watcher. Rona nor Amanda had a watcher. Along with others mentioned.

 

[Eternie]

But then why are potentials isolated? Potentials are able to receive the power. It seems like there would be some sort of hierarchy in potentials:

Potential #1 would be a great slayer therefore she is called but just in case something happens, Potential #2, a slightly less qualified candidate, is chosen.

Without the selection process, any wacko could be the slayer. The use of potentials and the selection weaves out the crazies and finds the most capable one.

I agree it's a possibility. But there's a problem to that. Any whacko did get the part of a Slayer. Faith. She was a nutcase at one point and she was a Slayer, and presumably at the top of the time...

 

[LadyLavinia]

Every character in that scene who betrayed Buffy were ungrateful little s***s. Faith is a Slayer, she has the strength, the speed, the healing, the agility, that Buffy has, but she lacked the one thing everyone else in the room had, the experience. Sure Xander, Willow, Giles, Dawn, all been through what Buffy has, but none of them have had to make the decisions she has had to, the sacrifices she has, the mental problems she has had because of who she is and the what she has done because of it. She is THE Slayer, even evil recognizes that fact. Not a single person in that room would be alive if it wasn't for her, and all she gets from them is betrayal, complaints, and bickering, and not even one apology after "The Great" Faith royally ****s up and looses Potentials in a trap any fool could see a mile away.

They were right to mutiny against Buffy. At least I believe that the Potentials had the right. They were never given the choice over whether they wanted to help Buffy fight against the First Evil's plans, just as Buffy was "recruited" into assuming Slayer duties. Buffy was starting to treat the Potentials in the same manner as she had been treated by the Watchers Council - as weapons in a war and not as human beings.

However, I did have problems with how the Scoobies turned their backs on Buffy - especially Giles and Dawn.

 

[Spike My Darlin]

She had good reasons to treat them the way she did. Not all of them would survive that is a fact in any war. If she allowed herself to get attached to any of them she would be worried about their safety and jeapordize everyone in the world's safey. No Scooby or Potential could understand this, and they think they know what is best. 🙄

 

[LadyLavinia]

She had good reasons to treat them the way she did. Not all of them would survive that is a fact in any war. If she allowed herself to get attached to any of them she would be worried about their safety and jeapordize everyone in the world's safey. No Scooby or Potential could understand this, and they think they know what is best. 🙄

She may have had her reasons for treating them the way she did, but Buffy didn't have the right. She didn't have the right to treat them as weapons of war, anymore than the Watchers Council had the right to treat her, Faith and any other previous Slayer in the same manner.

A good leader would not get too close to the people under him/her. At the same time, a good leader would not isolate him/herself from the people who follow him/her. Buffy never did learn how to strike a balance, until "Chosen".

There really is no excuse for her behavior toward the Potentials. Granted, the way they had turned on her was shabby and unfair . . . they still had every right to mutiny against her.

 

[Xander]

As I said before, the potentials did have a choice. Join Buffy or die. Its no daddy or chips offer but a lot of potentials were being cut up so Buffy (well Giles techincally but for Buffy as she couldn't go trouping around the world) went out and found them and stopped them from being killed.

Its been a while but Im pretty sure several times Buffy said to the potentials "If you don't want to be here/can't hack it then leave now, I have no time for you. I have a war coming on, are you going to come with me?" Plus obviously she gave them a choice in Chosen as well. "This is where you make a choice..."

Plus Faith led them into danger as well (did any of them die? Can't remember) but they followed her like puppy dogs. Its like kids at school, they prefer the "cool" teachers who let them get away with nothing even if they don't learn anything. Last year for a subject I had two teachers. One who wasn't so fun but taught us well, another who was a laugh but we learn't nothing yet everyone prefered him. (Sorry, kinda got a bit personal-oriented there).

 

[Amber Benson]

I actually am riding the fence on this one... Which is a first 😀

I think that they were both right, in some way... I do find it hypocritical the way that Buffy used the Potentials as her weapon-of-war, when she herself rebelled against the Council believing they were doing the same.

Also, I don't think that the best way to deal with it, was to basically isolate your strongest (in my opinion) member when everyone is dying, and you're facing something you have no idea how to kill.

I hate to say it, and being a woman myself, I think I can. I just saw Season 7 as one big b****-fest. Too many strong-willed women in one household. Something was bound to happen. 😀

 

[Xin Rong]

As much as I hate to say it, she really is superior to them. Not just because she has powers but because of the choices she has made. She was chosen because she was the best girl to take the reigns. And she has done an amazing job, time and time again thwarting evil that no other slayer has.



First of all, I've always believed that Buffy was stronger than Faith but I have to say that it's very clear that Faith is in no way as agile as Buffy. We've seen Buffy jump 20 feet in the air, flip around a room and other impressive acrobatics, but Faith, nothing.

Now on to the discussion.

It was so ironic that they cast out Buffy for getting potentials killed but yet they all rally behind Faith, who in one event gets more potentials killed than Buffy did in 4 months.



Especially Dawn. How could you do that to someone who gave their life up for your's two years ago? Dropped out of school to take care for you. Got a crappy job to help pay for your things.

And when you really think about it, Buffy got kicked out a house that was her sole property. And they ate her food. Such meanies.

I agree with most of what you said, sort of apart from the superior bit, i dont think buffy was superior, morally or the powers way, if we look at willow its clear that she is way more powerful than buffy could ever be and the moral thing i reckon they are all equal well except maybe anya

 

[SlayerThe]

She may have had her reasons for treating them the way she did, but Buffy didn't have the right. She didn't have the right to treat them as weapons of war, anymore than the Watchers Council had the right to treat her, Faith and any other previous Slayer in the same manner.

A good leader would not get too close to the people under him/her. At the same time, a good leader would not isolate him/herself from the people who follow him/her. Buffy never did learn how to strike a balance, until "Chosen".

There really is no excuse for her behavior toward the Potentials. Granted, the way they had turned on her was shabby and unfair . . . they still had every right to mutiny against her.

Actually Buffy did have every right to treat them the way she did.

Time and time again, we've mentioned the fact that they wouldn't be alive without her. It's as simple as that. She not only protected them, but she gave them a place to live.

They weren't there because they had to be, they were there by choice. Any of those potentials could have walked out the door if the wanted to, but none of them had the power to protect themselves. Buffy was the only thing standing between them and a Bringer.

It's not right to go against the only person who has kept you alive for some 4+ months. Plus their "choice" leader Faith turned out to be even worse at the things that they accused Buffy of. Faith didn't research her little expedition enough and really did risk the lives of the potentials. And little Ms. Summers had to save their lives, again.

I agree with most of what you said, sort of apart from the superior bit, i dont think buffy was superior, morally or the powers way, if we look at willow its clear that she is way more powerful than buffy could ever be and the moral thing i reckon they are all equal well except maybe anya

Willow may be super powerful, but she has to draw on outside sources and her body tires very easily. Not to mention that she had to draw strength/power from Buffy in early Season 7 after being attacked by the sking-eating demon.

Now this may have changed post-Chosen, but my money would still be on Buffy, especially if she has the scythe........

 

[LadyLavinia]

As I said before, the potentials did have a choice. Join Buffy or die. Its no daddy or chips offer but a lot of potentials were being cut up so Buffy (well Giles techincally but for Buffy as she couldn't go trouping around the world) went out and found them and stopped them from being killed.

Its been a while but Im pretty sure several times Buffy said to the potentials "If you don't want to be here/can't hack it then leave now, I have no time for you. I have a war coming on, are you going to come with me?" Plus obviously she gave them a choice in Chosen as well. "This is where you make a choice..."

Plus Faith led them into danger as well (did any of them die? Can't remember) but they followed her like puppy dogs. Its like kids at school, they prefer the "cool" teachers who let them get away with nothing even if they don't learn anything. Last year for a subject I had two teachers. One who wasn't so fun but taught us well, another who was a laugh but we learn't nothing yet everyone prefered him. (Sorry, kinda got a bit personal-oriented there).

I don't recall the Potentials given a choice on whether to help Buffy fight the First Evil. Not at all. Even Rona pointed out in "Dirty Girls" that she had never been given that choice. She had arrived in Sunnydale for protection, not to be recruited in some supernatural army.


Do you think that Buffy was wrong to reject the authority of the Watchers' Council in Season 3? If not, why should the Potentials be wrong in rejecting Buffy's authority? She only bought it upon herself with her "General von Summers" behavior.


Are you saying that it is wrong to reject authority, when you're dissatisfied with it?

 

[Xin Rong]

I love buffy but i still cant see how people can see buffy as stronger than willow after their fight in series 6 where buffy didnt even manage to mark her- and i know my brother said this but i agree buffy's power is kinda borrowed as its not her own its something she was given as anya said she didnt earn its sort of like being born into a rich family you have all this money and power but it isnt really yours

 

[LadyLavinia]

I love buffy but i still cant see how people can see buffy as stronger than willow after their fight in series 6 where buffy didnt even manage to mark her- and i know my brother said this but i agree buffy's power is kinda borrowed as its not her own its something she was given as anya said she didnt earn its sort of like being born into a rich family you have all this money and power but it isnt really yours

In her showdown with Buffy, I don't think that Willow was using her own natural power. I think that she was also using "borrowed" power.