My compassion versus Buffy's martyr complex

[EVIL UU]

A large part of the appeal of Buffy as a character comes from the fact that she suffers. A lot. We, the viewers, feel sorry for her and thus we love as compassion is a form of love. Sadly, I no longer can because I realized something today. Remember the discussion in this thread? Yeah, I think I figured her out. Buffy doesn't have superiority and inferiority complexes. She has a martyr complex. Of course. Suddenly, everything about Buffy starts to make sense, her irrational choices, her creepy relationships, even in those ridiculous comics, as much as I hate to admit it. I can't believe I didn't figure it out sooner, I mean, it's all there, the franchise practically hands it out on a plate, just look at those lines:

I know it's nuts, but.. part of me believes that real love and passion have to go hand in hand with pain and fighting.

I think there're people out there who'd make it. I just... target the impossible ones... with deadly accuracy.

I hope you don't think this antidote's gonna rid you of that nasty martyrdom. See I figured it out, luv. You can't help yourself. You're not drawn to the dark like I thought. You're addicted to the misery. ( ... ) Let yourself live, already. And stop with the bloody hero trip for a second, we'd all be the better for it.

The chosen one. Always in pain...and always complaining.

Martyr complex. That's it. To test my theory I just watched Buffy's most painful moments from the show and...I felt nothing. No compassion. No love. No sympathy. Just...contempt almost, slight schadenfreude. It was weird, you know, kinda liberating to be honest. The Oh, poor Buffy feelings are completely gone. Her heroism, her pain, her sacrifices, I realize it's all garbage. Turns out that deep down she is actually the most broken character on the show. She's truly pathetic. A mess. I mean, damn, Spike is a masochist, a mass murderer and a machine masturbator and he's still a healthier individual. It's sad. Tragic.

Guys, what can I do to love Buffy again? Or like? Or tolerate? I kinda despise her now and I don't think I want to.

 

[Kean]

I don't know if any of us can help you like Buffy if you've found yourself in a place where you so thoroughly can't stand her. Once I've gotten to that place with a character, there's no coming back. But just out of interest, can you tell us how you felt about Buffy before this? Did you like her? Admire her? Why? Who are you favourite characters in the verse? Even out of the verse? What kind of people do you admire, generally? Maybe if we understand what you admire in an individual we can possibly see if Buffy holds any of those traits.

 

[Robb Stark]

I know what those lines say, but I don't think that Buffy's "addicted to the misery" like you said. Granted, I haven't read all the comics yet so I'll have to reserve full judgement until I do, but I haven't seen anything that makes me believe Buffy wants to be unhappy, or wants to go out a martyr. I certainly don't get a sense of schadenfreude.

I think if you look at the key turning points of Buffy's life, she's not wanting it go go south. She killed Angel, as she said, to save the world, and then couldn't take it for a while. I don't see any martyr syndrome there. It isn't really open to interpretation as to what she had to do either. She couldn't let him live. There was no alternative.

I know you don't agree with how she saved the world in "The Gift", and that's fine, I'm not going to try and change your mind, but I thought that sacrificing herself to save Dawn along with everyone else, as opposed to letting Dawn jump, was an incredibly brave and heroic thing to do. Like "Becoming", it always makes me feel for her.

Her relationships with Angel and Spike aren't about misery or playing the martyr. She loved them both, and the circumstances upon which she loved them are very understandable. She tried to stay away from Angel when she was 16 before falling for him. She fought a war with Spike (where it wouldn't have been very prudent to send him away for personal reasons) after knowing him for years. And really, she's not even really "in a relationship" with Spike in S7. They don't sleep together at all.

Those are the two big instances plus the vamps. Does Buffy always make the right call, or the right call for herself? Of course not. I think that's a big part of what makes her relatable. I can't think of many, if any, instances where she gets herself into trouble and I'm actively rooting against her. The times when she has her back to the wall, it's always understandable, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Blaze]

I empathise with Buffy a lot. I don't think she's a martyr, but I do think that once you get into that mindset that you have a shitty life, it's hard to come out of that mindset. I think part of the reason I like Buffy so much is that I understand what she's going through. Her being depressed doesn't make her a martyr, as someone that has been through depression, it is a constant fight and when you're living it, you sometimes get to that point where you become very self destructive and you don't really care for help anymore. Of course I'm talking only from my own experience so I'm not generalizing this the the whole population or to Buffy but it's the way I see it.

I will agree with one part of your post, yes I do think Buffy is one of the most broken character in the verse but that doesn't make her a martyr. I don't think her pain and heroism are garbage. She had to go through constantly losing people that she loved, the fact that she didn't go crazy is a proof that she is indeed a fighter and that she does try at life.

I don't think Buffy chases after misery (with maybe the exception of s6, but she had a good reason imo). I think considering everything she went through, she is incredibly brave and loving. Saying that Spike is a healthier individual (I'm going to assume you mean before he got his soul) is bull to me. He was a mass murderer with no real feelings, no empathy, basicly a sociopath (debatable for s5-6 when he falls in love with Buffy), there was nothing healthy about Spike's mentality.

I do have more to say on the subject but I don't have have the time right now so I'll probably get back to the thread later.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

I don't consider Buffy to have a martyr complex. Before her calling (which she resisted all the way through Season 1 and accepted grudgingly after that), she was a cheerleader and Homecoming queen, appropriately shallow pursuits for a high-school girl. She was not trying to die for a cause, which is the definition of martyrdom - she was a soldier sent into a battle for which she was somewhat well equipped but was offered no guarantees and was exposed to daily risk. There was no heaven at the end of the line for her - she was more like a professional soldier in the Soviet army with no expectation of an afterlife (other than the possibility of being sired) than a jihadist who regarded her role as holy.

She does make bad choices and they could certainly be called detrimental, possibly as far as self-destructive but not to the point of suicidal, let alone martyrdom. If you regard martyrdom colloquially as just meaning someone who bitches and moans about her lot in life, yes, she does plenty of that. But that is not the real meaning of martyrdom - she gets little joy out of her work and never approaches any kind of completion.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

Who are you favourite characters in the verse?

Oh, I love them all. Even when I hate them. I despise Spike but he's still one of my favourite characters, I mean, I can't stop talking about how much he sucks, right? That's got to count for something.

But just out of interest, can you tell us how you felt about Buffy before this? Did you like her?

Sure. I liked her huge heart, her kinda ditzy yet adorable personality, her sense of humor, her incredible legs. I still think she's adorable and funny and her legs are still, you know, absolutely spectacular but everything else? Her relationships, her choices, the slayerhood, as of today I see it in a completely different light. I'm this kid in Supes pajamas who just learned that Superman is a pedophile. Alright, this isn't the best metaphor, it's just, I'm disillusioned, like Mass Effect 3 disillusioned. I still love Buffy, the Buffy who's not the slayer, who's Buffy, the girl who balances a pot of pencils on her head or questions the laws of physics in a cartoon but the slaying part, the relationships that stem from it, the fight against evil...no, just no.

What kind of people do you admire, generally?

I admire artists of great skill and imagination, at the top of their game. Hey, Buffy's kinda like that too, she's best at killing things after all. Great skill, top of the game, imagination's there too I guess, when she gets imaginative with her choices of weapons. I can admire that. Yeah, I still can admire Buffy with an AT4.

Thanks.
[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

Buffy wants to be unhappy, or wants to go out a martyr.

She doesn't necessarily want to go out but she wants to be a victim. She wants to suffer for the sake of others because through that she avoids taking responsibility for her own life. Her decision to keep slaying after Kendra shows up and then after season 7 has nothing to do with fighting evil. Take away the suffering and Buffy's lost, she doesn't know what to do with her life. So she keeps going, setting herself up to suffer some more.

Her relationships with Angel and Spike aren't about misery or playing the martyr.

Sure they are. Buffy knows those relationships cannot possibly work. She knows they will lead to suffering and yet she sets herself up to be a victim. She believes that in the end her suffering will lead her to happiness. It's utter garbage but she actually believes that. You know what's her dream partner? One who will abuse and mistreat her but will see the error of their ways and change for her. Parker was pretty terrible, right? Watch the first scene in "Beer Bad", what does Buffy daydream about? About him changing for her, being sorry. Look at the dialog:

PARKER: Buffy, I don't know what to say. After the way I've treated you, and now I owe you my life
BUFFY: It's nothing.
PARKER: It's everything. You're everything. And I'm going to do whatever it takes to get you to forgive me. Do you think one day you might .
PARKER: Buffy, I don't know what to say. After the way I've treated you, and now I owe you my life.
PARKER: Can you ever forgive me?

Yeah, he even brings food. For a long time I couldn't understand why Buffy wanted to leave Dawn with Spike after he tried to rape her. I mean, excuse me, is she freaking insane? Now I get it. I couldn't understand what was going on in season 7 between Buffy and Spike. After

Ask me again why I could never love you!

and

You need to leave me alone. You're not a part of my life.

not to mention the rape attempt we get all this romance garbage again. What the hell? Now I understand. It's because Spike changed for Buffy and it's like a dream come true. So, why nothing happens between them? Why nothing happens between them in the comics? What's stopping them to find happiness together? See, Spike with a soul is nice, supportive, loyal, he doesn't hurt her, or abuse her, there's no suffering so Buffy's not interested. Instead, she gives him a very powerful and very dangerous amulet. Purifying, cleansing power on a vampire, you don't have to be a genius to figure out how that's going to end, right? She pushes him away, not unlike she pushed away Riley.

Look at Satsu. I swear, Satsu is the best person Buffy's ever bedded. Ever, there's no competition, it's like the powers created her specifically for Buffy. Here, take this lass you bitch, shag, love and for once be happy for Christ's sake Seriously, she's alive, she's on the same power level as Buffy, she's in love with her, actually truly in love with her, she's not homicidal and holy shit, is she good in the sack or what? Let's be honest here, Satsu gave Buffy the screw of a lifetime, Spike may be a spry corpse but this is slayer on slayer action we're talking about kids, it's on a completely different level. So, what does Buffy do with it? Of course, she pushes her away. There's no suffering to be had here, Satsu is not going to make her feel miserable, she's not going to rape her, she's not going to murder her loved ones, no torture, no pain, no suffering and nothing to sacrifice. Not even sex, like with Angel in season 3, they can screw till they can't walk and then some. But that's not what Buffy wants. She wants pain, she wants to suffer for others, forsake her own needs, her happiness, her personal life because it fuels her ego. She derives her sense of self worth from the suffering and the sacrifices. Damn, she's bonkers.

OK, I'll be back, need to get some sleep now.

 

[Kean]

Oh, I love them all. Even when I hate them. I despise Spike but he's still one of my favourite characters, I mean, I can't stop talking about how much he sucks, right? That's got to count for something.

Well that's certainly one way to look at it. 😛 :lmao:

Sure. I liked her huge heart, her kinda ditzy yet adorable personality, her sense of humor, her incredible legs. I still think she's adorable and funny and her legs are still, you know, absolutely spectacular but everything else? Her relationships, her choices, the slayerhood, as of today I see it in a completely different light. I'm this kid in Supes pajamas who just learned that Superman is a pedophile. Alright, this isn't the best metaphor, it's just, I'm disillusioned, like Mass Effect 3 disillusioned. I still love Buffy, the Buffy who's not the slayer, who's Buffy, the girl who balances a pot of pencils on her head or questions the laws of physics in a cartoon but the slaying part, the relationships that stem from it, the fight against evil...no, just no.

We've spoken about this before so I'm pretty sure I can't help you on this, simply because how we view being a slayer is completely different. I think it is a fundamental part of who Buffy is. I don't think she could let go of that part of her any more than she could the ditzyness. Would I be right in saying that you view Buffy and her relationship with slaying as choice?

I admire artists of great skill and imagination, at the top of their game. Hey, Buffy's kinda like that too, she's best at killing things after all. Great skill, top of the game, imagination's there too I guess, when she gets imaginative with her choices of weapons. I can admire that. Yeah, I still can admire Buffy with an AT4.

I think Buffy is all these things, though for me, I feel like she doesn't get the opportunity to express that aspect of herself anymore. I feel like without a solid support network Buffy is slowly becoming The Wish version of herself. Or at least a version of that. She slays but she doesn't trust anyone or anything, not even herself. Personally, all of this leads me to feel compassion towards her. I look at Buffy's life and I just want to be her friend, you know? It sounds stupid but that's how I feel when I watch the latter seasons or read the comics.

I think a big part of the problem is that for so many years Buffy has had to focus on The Slayer aspect of who she is, and the person part of her just fell away.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=11975]Robb Stark[/MENTION]

I know you don't agree with how she saved the world in "The Gift", and that's fine, I'm not going to try and change your mind, but I thought that sacrificing herself to save Dawn along with everyone else, as opposed to letting Dawn jump, was an incredibly brave and heroic thing to do.

Ultimate sacrifice, ultimate victimhood, ultimate suffering for the sake of others, Buffy's OK with that but it goes deeper than that. Like way deeper. Buffy sets herself up to be a victim. She had to kill herself in "The Gift" because she decided to run away from Glory in the slowest vehicle in Sunnydale. It's not stupidity, she deliberately sabotages herself to become a victim. For a long time I couldn't understand why doesn't Buffy do anything to stop The Trio for the most of the season, why doesn't she just tell Spike to sniff them out? He knows them, he's met them. She can stop it. Why doesn't she? Because the trio with their shenanigans fuel her need to suffer and to be a victim. Take a look at her insane plans in season 7, they can't possibly work. Or season 8. She knows Twilight's real identity from the very beginning, make no mistake about it and yet she does nothing to stop him. On the contrary, she sabotages her own army by ordering the strongest of her girls to forsake their power in Tibet so they can be easily slaughtered. Because she wants to suffer, pain is her freaking heroin.

If it was just about her suffering, well, screw her...but sadly, it's not. Somebody else always has to pay for it, Jenny Calendar, Tara in season 6, Anya and the potentials in season 7, hundreds of slayers and pretty much millions of people in season 8. Buffy doesn't care about them, she's not just sick, she's also rotten. That's why I refuse to feel sorry for her.

 

[Lyri]

[MENTION=11975] She knows Twilight's real identity from the very beginning, make no mistake about it and yet she does nothing to stop him.

Um...what now? Clearly I've missed something here. Where does it say that Buffy knew Twilight's identity from the very beginning? Can you point me to the issue where that's confirmed? Because I really don't remember that.

As far as this thread goes, I think you've made up your mind. You seem to be going out of your way to view Buffy in as bad a light as possible, and I don't think anything anyone says in here is going to change your mind on that.

I love Buffy, she was my idol all through my teenage years and I learned a lot from her. Yes, she made mistakes, but that's what makes her human and makes me able to relate to her.

 

[EVIL UU]

[MENTION=6332]Lyri[/MENTION]

Confirmed anything, in season 8? Surely you jest. Knowing what Buffy knows one would have to be a brain-dead chimpanzee toddler to not figure it out. Between the winged lion in her dream and I know that move, slayer it's just beyond obvious. I mean, Spike figured it out in 3 seconds, reading a newspaper and he's not exactly the brightest monkey. Broken Buffy I can understand, inane, imbecilic idiot Buffy? Not so much. Yeah, she can be stupid and clueless but not that clueless.

she was my idol all through my teenage years and I learned a lot from her.

I lack such experience, I've never identified with or taken inspiration from Buffy. Maybe that's why I look at her the way I do? There's little personal emotional attachment.
[MENTION=7585]Kean[/MENTION]

Would I be right in saying that you view Buffy and her relationship with slaying as choice?

Sure. I think that it's her choice. I always thought it was a crazy choice, but I believed Buffy's reasons weren't - heroism, need to do good and so on. Crazy but at least somewhat noble. Now I understand that her reasons are even crazier.

It's like... I wanted to be punished. I wanted to hurt like I thought I deserved

Not just in her relationship with Spike, in everything. Buffy chooses to slay because of the bundled suffering that makes her feel good about herself, makes her feel worthy of her friends' love.

I look at Buffy's life and I just want to be her friend, you know? It sounds stupid but that's how I feel when I watch the latter seasons or read the comics.

I can understand that. Buffy could use a friend as she has none. Not a Scoobie, not an ex-lover, not a potential love interest, not a pseudo-cosmic-sister. A real friend. I think it's one of the biggest shortcomings of the franchise.

I think a big part of the problem is that for so many years Buffy has had to focus on The Slayer aspect of who she is, and the person part of her just fell away.

Yeah, without the slayer, there's really not much left.

 

[Ethan Reigns]

Spike, who is normally the only one who can size up a situation and a person on the show, says in Fool for Love 5ABB07:

"Death is on your heels, baby. And sooner or later, it's gonna catch you. And part of you wants it. Not only to stop the fear and uncertainty, but because you're just a little bit in love with it."

"Death is your art. You make it with your hands day after day. That final gasp, that look of peace. And part of you is desperate to know: What's it like? Where does it lead you? And now you see, that's the secret. Not the punch you didn't throw or the kicks you didn't land. She really wanted it. Every Slayer has a death wish. Even you."

"Sooner or later, you're gonna want it. And the second "” the second "” that happens, you know I'll be there. I'll slip in, have myself a real good day."

Spike is convinced Buffy is suicidal. But at the end of Season 5, she does die and when she returns in Season 6, she regrets coming back. But according to Spike, it isn't martyrdom - it's curiosity mixed with fear and uncertainty that creates a death wish. I don't necessarily agree with Spike that this is her motivation (let alone a final gasp and look of peace), but it would always be in the back of her mind.