My Personal Shanshu Theory

D

Dark Knight

Vampire with a soul
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In a first season episode, Angel becam human after some demon blood mixed with his own. What if that was meant by the PTB to be the fulfillment of the Shanshu, possibly for helping defeat the Mayor back in Buffy?

A friend pointed out that, in season 5, the universe was going all wacky because of the two vampires with souls, thus wrecking my theory. But I figure that if that were the case, the universe would have been all wacky in Buffy season 7 and Angel season 4 too, because there were two ensouled vamps, albeit on different shows. The chaotic universe in Angel 5 could have easily been Lindsey's doing, keeping in mind it was Eve who told Angel and co. why the universe was going into chaos.

It's not a perfect theory, I admit, but I'd like to hear some more thoughts on it.
 
You're slipping past one of the central parts of the Shanshu prophecy though, aren't you?

There has to be an apocalypse the vampire with a soul fights in.

As far as the two vampires with a soul, and the world going wacky thing goes, I think that's one of those things where you have to write your own personal little background theory to make things make sense.

For me it's like that time-travel thing, where the person traveling back in time can't confront himself, or it screws up the timeline. If Angel is in LA, and Spike is in Sunnydale that's OK, but if they confront each other, it causes a dimensional disturbance.
 
See, the apocalypse could have been the Mayor turning into a giant evil snake. Depending on how loosely you define 'apocalypse', of course. God knows that the rest of the prophecy has been reinterpreted from time to time.
 
Dark Knight said:
See, the apocalypse could have been the Mayor turning into a giant evil snake. Depending on how loosely you define 'apocalypse', of course. God knows that the rest of the prophecy has been reinterpreted from time to time.
Click to expand...

Just what I always thought, there's been loads of 'apocalypses'. And didn't someone say that Earth had already been in the middle of an apocalypse for hundereds of years? Maybe I just imagined that.

But technicalities aside, I always imagined the apocalypse in question to be a more...apocalypsey. Fire, dragons, earthquakes etc. Not Fade Away ending style.

My personal opinion on the Shanshu is that it refers to Spike. Just seems to fit well, even if he doesn't really deserve/want/need it as much as Angel.
 
Yeah that's interesting. What exactly is an Apocalypse in Buffyverse terms, anyway.

My general understanding is the term refers to the end of days, destruction of the human race kind of thing.

Did the mayor want to destroy the human race or just control it. Was the Master's plan an apocalypse? Was Jasmine's?

Acathla, and The Judge would appear to be planned apocalypses by any definition, but Angel was not the vampire with a soul at either of those times.

The First's was an apocalyptic plan, maybe, but Angel wasn't really in that one. He just dropped off some files and jewelry.

The apocalypse that's referred to in Angel as The apocalypse by Lindsey, and others is the Senior Partner's apocalypse, and that one apparently has been in the works since early times. We still haven't seen the full result of that one.

I'm not sure it matters either way though, because if there is more than one apocalypse, the writers have a built in excuse for why Angel hasn't Shanshued yet. The real apocalypse isn't here yet.
 
Just to talk about the Spike/Angel in Buffy S7/Angel S4 thing. I always took it as the Shanshu prophecy was for a vampire for a soul who was a champion? Wasn't that a key part or am I making things up?

If thats the case Spike wasn't a champion until after he sacrificed his unlife for good.
 
As far as the Senior Partner's Apocalypse is concerned, i've taken that to mean that by using humanity's own tools, such as the corporate world and the legal system, the Wolf, Ram and Hart are attempting to cause man to bring about it's own defeat.

They are simply allowing us to destroy ourselves with our own ways, just nudging and manipulating events so that things go badly for us that little bit faster. Then, once we have ruined our own world for them and weakened ourselves sufficiently, the way will be paved for them to return and hold dominion over the earth realm. This theory would tally with not only what Angel was told by both Holland and Lindsey, but also the reasons why they choose to run a business like Wolfram and Hart. They know the best way to destroy us is to push us down the path we chose for ourselves.

As far as the Shanshu is concerned, i've considered the fact that it may have already been fulfilled in I Will Remember You as well. Angel has played a part in preventing at least two apocalypses prior to that episode, both the Master and the Mayor attempted to bring about one each and Angel helped stop them both.

It could also be argued that the Acathla affair could be included for that matter. The Shanshu concerns the vampire with a soul playing a part in an apocalypse, either on the side of good or evil. It doesn't specifically state that the vampire will have his soul right at the time of said apocalypse, just that he will be involved. That is a technicality, i know, but it does make sense.

My thinking is that the Shanshu refers to the major capital "A" Apocalypse that the SP's are helping to bring about. Purely from a storytelling point of view that is the obvious answer. Everyone at Wolfram and Hart, from Lindsey to the Senior Partners themselves, believe that Angel is important to the company's big plan so that suggests to me that the Shanshu is yet to be fulfilled ...

... and that Harmony will be the one to live again! 😉
 
What about the apocalypse that leads to Fray? I would assume Angel would play a vital role in that one, and it would make sense...

Personally, I think it is Angel who will shanshu, and it has not been fulfilled. The prophecy which first told him of the shanshu said he had to endure more than just one little apocalypse like the instance with the Mayor. And I don't think I would consider Graduation Part II an apocalypse.

Makes sense that Angel would be the one to shanshu and that it would tie in with the Senior Partner's apocalypse. They were afterall going for him, not Spike. They would most likely know who it is.
 
Well, i think i've already said in another thread that i believe the Senior Partners Apocalypse will be the same one that is mentioned in Fray. Whilst there is nothing to prove that at the moment i just get the feeling it would be the way Joss would choose to go. Nicely tying Buffy, Angel and Fray together.

Truthfully i do tend to believe that it will be Angel who Shanshus, however that isn't because of the Senior Partners beliefs. It appeared in season five that they were just as thrown by the possibility of Spike being the one as everyone else was. They had just been assuming it was to be Angel because he was the only ensouled vamp up to that point, same as everyone else.

As for what makes an apocalypse, well i tend to agree that the term is thrown around very easily. I guess in most cases it was the intent of the Big Bad, rather than the event itself, that determined the title. The Mayor's ascension had very little effect in the end, unless you consider the destruction of Sunnydale High to be apocalyptic, however his intentions were no doubt far more destructive and far reaching, had he been given the chance to carry them out. Therefore Buffy perhaps did prevent an apocalypse from occuring. All depends on how you look at it.
 
I sometimes wonder if the whole shanshu things isn't in relation to coonor, because darla is a vampire with a soul who in a strange way becomes human in the form of connor, i mean all it means is that wesley interpreted the prophecy slightly wrong maybe shanshu means will have a human but personally i dont think shanshu was in i will remember you but its an intersting theory nonetheless
 
if Angel really wanted to be human then i think he would have just looked for that demon that made him human...in Destiny i think both him and Spike just didnt want the other one to get the shanshu
 
Dark Knight said:
In a first season episode, Angel becam human after some demon blood mixed with his own. What if that was meant by the PTB to be the fulfillment of the Shanshu, possibly for helping defeat the Mayor back in Buffy?

A friend pointed out that, in season 5, the universe was going all wacky because of the two vampires with souls, thus wrecking my theory. But I figure that if that were the case, the universe would have been all wacky in Buffy season 7 and Angel season 4 too, because there were two ensouled vamps, albeit on different shows. The chaotic universe in Angel 5 could have easily been Lindsey's doing, keeping in mind it was Eve who told Angel and co. why the universe was going into chaos.
Click to expand...

It seems as though this topic hasn't been revisited in a while, but I thought I could shed some light on this subject. The Angel Season 5 episode you are refereing to is titled "Destiny." This is the episode in which, Lindsay and Eve used magic to throw the universe out of whack to convince Spike and Angel it's related to the Shanshu prophecy, in order to get them to battle one another in hopes that Angel would be killed.

Anyone who saw the episode should remember the final scene where Eve undresses in her apartment, then slides into bed with an already undressed Lindsay. She mentions to her lover, Lindsay, that "Spike didn't kill Angel, though they did beat each other to a bloody pulp." To which Lindsay replies "it's a start."

The universe being thrown out of wack wasn't an event in which Lindsay and Eve seized upon, but one which they created. The plot was that Lindsay would disrupt the universe, then his cohort, Eve, would feed Team Angel some bogus theory about it being the result of 2 vampires with souls, leading Angel and Spike to battle over the Cup of Perpetual Torment. A Vampire with a soul must drink from the Cup in order to inherit the Shanshu prophecy's reward of human life.

The goal was to have Spike kill Angel, which he nearly did, had it not been for Spike's mercy. However, once Spike defeated Angel in an epic battle, to both their suprises, the phoney Cup was only filled with Mountain Dew. The only reason the Senior Partners never figuered out who was behind it was because of mystical tribal symbols painted all over Eve's apartment and tatooed on Lindsay's body, which kept them nearly undetectable to the Senior Partners.

Your theory was correct.
 
nerd4hire said:
You're slipping past one of the central parts of the Shanshu prophecy though, aren't you?

There has to be an apocalypse the vampire with a soul fights in.

As far as the two vampires with a soul, and the world going wacky thing goes, I think that's one of those things where you have to write your own personal little background theory to make things make sense.

For me it's like that time-travel thing, where the person traveling back in time can't confront himself, or it screws up the timeline. If Angel is in LA, and Spike is in Sunnydale that's OK, but if they confront each other, it causes a dimensional disturbance.
Click to expand...

Actually, I'm afraid your theory is bust. In the Season 5 episode "Destiny," after the universe goes chaotic, either Spike or Angel (can't remember who) suggested that Spike should leave in order to end the disruption. However, it was Eve who said that separating the 2 could make matters worse by plunging the universe further into chaos and advised that Spike remain with Angel at W & H until the conflict was resolved.

Eve and Lindsay needed Spike and Angel to confront one another, which is why they also re-corporealized Spike by sending him a mysterious package in the begining of the episode. Spike needed to be corporeal so that Team Angel would believe that the Shanshu Prophecy could possibly be about Spike as well, resulting in a conflict between the 2 vampires in order for their scheme to pan out.
 
Dia DeLa Muerte said:
But your comeback is flawed because Lindsay, Eve and Sirk planted that information........
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What difference does it make? My posts were in reference to what and who caused the imbalance in the universe. The information didn't need to be real, Team Angel just needed to believe it was real. Mission accomplished.

The fact that Sirk planted the false info at the behest of Lindsay & Eve is just further confirmation of the fact that everything that happened in that episode was of Lindsay's design. I never contested the authenticity of the information. Nothing flawed about my "comeback."
 
Lindsey just wanted to kill Angel and he could only do that by lowering Angel's spirits by making him think the prophecy wasn't for him.
 
I agree with chaos worrior and to expand on that if the shanshu was for spike then how come Angel was drawn to the scroll back in season one?
Also the scroll also predicted that he would recue the children with those wierd powers from w&h....
So the chaos resuling in w&h was part of a spell that Lindsey cast to make everyone think it was because of both vamps.
 
I think that the Shanshu prophecy must have come to pass after the final battle in the last episode of season five that we didn't get to see.
 
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