My Problem with Natasha Romanoff in Avengers: Endgame

Skanky Vamp

Sniffin' the Slayer
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Black Thorn
Reposted from TMS

Okay, let’s talk about my girl Natasha Romanoff in Avengers: Endgame. If you’re like me, Nat was one of the only female characters you really had at the beginning of our MCU journey. The early world of The Avengers was a man’s world. There were very few women in the Marvel Cinematic Universe who got to kick ass and take names and be featured on any kind of merchandise.

Natasha was someone who many of us looked up to, the only female superhero in the boys’ club. And for good reason. She didn’t have powers, she didn’t have to have some sort of accident turn her into something, she was just badass all on her own. A life of unforgiving training made her one of the best. Even better, she had a rather morally gray start, then walked it back because she was a strong, complicated, good person. She didn’t start life as a hero, but learned to become one through her own perseverance.

And then Avengers: Endgame came and gave us one of the absolute best versions of the character just to … kill her off? In Endgame, Natasha is resolute, keeping the Avengers and friends together, coordinating the defense of the world, seeming to take the leadership position in Tony and Steve’s absence. Don’t even get me started on what the MCU has done to her character throughout the years, but this takes the cake for giving us what we want and then completely jumping up and down on it like a child throwing a tantrum.

Look, I get it. Not everyone was going to survive this movie, but the two who perished were not who I wanted to die or who should have. Especially when it comes to Natasha. Giving up her life for the Soul Stone? Honorable. Doing so because she doesn’t have a family and couldn’t let Clint be the one to take the fall? Well, that’s bullshit. It goes back to everyone’s favorite movie: Avengers: Age of Ultron. That movie made Natasha Romanoff “less than” because she couldn’t have kids. Compared her to a monster. So why not kill her off instead of a character that has been sidelined for the last few films just because he has a family? A family apparently so important that their loss is the movie’s first scene?

The death of Natasha Romanoff is not something I took lightly, but you know what sucked even more about the entire situation? Her “funeral” was diminished to just mentions of her dying. She didn’t get a grand remembrance, she didn’t have everyone crying over her, or people coming to pay their respects and share their grief. Her loss had one small scene where Tony didn’t even seem that sad about it, Steve shed a tear, and both Bruce and Clint were the only two to continue to bring her up.

Where was her funeral? Where was her moment? If the Avengers were her “family,” she should have had more of an impact. Where were the reactions from others—perhaps even other women, who knew her and had been working with her for five years, like Okoye and Carol? Natasha Romanoff deserved better than to be used as a plot device to motivate the men who cared about her to make sure her death counted or happened for a reason or whatever hand-wave emotional excuse was given. This also felt quite a lot like fridging, the trope where a female character is killed in a dramatic fashion, primarily to propel men into action.

And, as the Wrap points out, this development makes the planned Black Widow movie even stranger, because—what? Now we’re getting her storyline somehow after she’s dead? Or are we going to get a technologically de-aged Natasha for an early prequel when she’s an assassin? This would be extremely awkward.

Whatever, Marvel. It should have been Hawkeye. He literally became a serial killer; judge, jury, and executioner and murdered countless people instead of helping Natasha and the rest of the Avengers try to hold the fractious world together. But sure, it checks out that she’d be the one to die, right?
 
Guy
Guy
YES. I'm so mad...
Look, I get it. Not everyone was going to survive this movie, but the two who perished were not who I wanted to die or who should have.
No arguments from me on that one. 😡
Whatever, Marvel. It should have been Hawkeye.
...still not arguing. 😡
Where was her funeral? Where was her moment?
....I'll be honest, that thought passed me by and you've made me feel bad about myself. 😳
 
I had some of the exact same thoughts as you @Spanky regarding how Clint should have died instead, and her lack of funeral.

This character really has been treated poorly overall. She died a hero but doesn't get to have her moment. She's out shined by Tony Stark in the end. Her sacrifice is basically treated as a plot point.

I honestly don't understand why Marvel is so in love with Hawkeye at this point. It makes no sense to me.

I assume the movie (if it really is happening) will be her origin story, which should still be interesting considering her past seems very rich. But I definitely feel cheated by the MCU. And I've only started watching those movies 2 months ago. So I feel for the fans who have been there since the beginning.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
Not me, whomever wrote the article. I don't care one way or the other.
HowiMetdaSlayer
HowiMetdaSlayer
I'd take black widow over most of these characters anyday
I have no problem with Natasha's death. While I'm not personally a Hawkeye fan, he was Natasha's best friend - he was VERY important to HER. He was her partner. I thought it was refreshing to have two people who loved/cared for each other, who didn't judge each other for their pasts, and who were NOT in a romantic relationship. It is refreshing to see such a strong platonic relationship. We saw how close Natasha was to Clint's family. She cared for them as well. I understand the arguments against Natasha's death and they are valid, but on a story level, I really loved the way that Nat gave her life for a friend that she loved, and for his family - that she also cared for. I look forward to her movies and part of me thinks this is not the end for her. But who knows.
 
Mylie
Mylie
My problem is less with her death and more with how it was handled, personally.
I look forward to her movies and part of me thinks this is not the end for her. But who knows.
I figure they will retrieve her from the soul stone- would make a great ending to her solo movie- but I was thinking today maybe her movie is just 100% prequel. Maybe they de-aged Sam Jackson in the other movie as a proof of concept for Widow's movie to be her de-aged in the whole thing. Because there is no way she could pass for being her younger self if not deaged.
 
GraceK
GraceK
I honestly never cared much for black widow to begin with
@GraceK Still don't care for her, but ... I must admit, I never thought there would be someone less charismatic than her, but, hello Captain Marvel!
 
@Spanky Captain Marvel's days are numbered. With Disney procuring Fox, it means they now have the rights to use the X-Men in the MCU which means they have the right to use Rogue.

With Dark Phoenix coming out and rounding off the Fox X-Men movies, they'll probably give it a couple of years for the dust to settle (no doubt Spiderman 2, Captain Marvel 2 and GotG3 will fill that gap) but the X-Men will appear eventually and when they do Captain Marvel is as good as dead.
 
@Spanky Captain Marvel's days are numbered. With Disney procuring Fox, it means they now have the rights to use the X-Men in the MCU which means they have the right to use Rogue.
You keep saying that... why? What does it mean? You don't think they want two leading ladies?
 
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You keep saying that... why? What does it mean? You don't think they want two leading ladies?

In the comics and the animated series, Rogue steals Captain Marvel's powers and ends up putting her in an indefinite coma. Now the Fox movie version of Rogue couldn't do that because Fox didn't have the rights to the Captain Marvel character but now that Disney has the right to the X-Men they can. It would also distinguish their Rogue from the Fox movie version. If I remember rightly, Rogue started off as a villain so they've got that going for them.
 
@GraceK - I did care for Black Widow, I am a fan of hers actually going back to the days I would browse comics (not like read them haha). I remember her and Daredevil were in a relationship hahah.

But she was never a major MCU character (as in a titular character) so I suppose it didn't surprise me that there was no funeral. She was fondly remembered after her death and her sacrifice was honored. It worked for me. But I recognize there is room for criticism there.

I figure they will retrieve her from the soul stone- would make a great ending to her solo movie- but I was thinking today maybe her movie is just 100% prequel.

Yeah - I think her and Gamora come back. They showed Gamora in the stone and we know there is another Guardians of the Galaxy. So I think they aren't 100% gone. But I could be wrong.
 
Avengers Endgame SPOILERS!

Nat's death basically ruined the entire movie for me. In the first act of Endgame, Natasha was BY FAR the most compelling character - wanting to fight the good fight even though the good fight doesn't need her anymore, like some kind of modern cowboy in a modern dying frontier. Her "I'm still trying to be better" monologue is the most tear-jerking moment in the entire film. I always like Nat, but I never LOVED her the way I love her in Endgame. There was just something incredibly REAL about her pain in this film - the way she tried to put up a stoic facade, the way she was heartbroken by the news that her best friend became a murderer like she once was, the way she wouldn't allow herself to move on, the way she couldn't see a life for herself beyond her job... Just thinking about it makes me want to cry. And Scarlett Johansson's performance was better than ever.

...And then, instead of giving her arc a satisfying resolution, the movie just decides to kill her off, halfway through the movie. And it kills her off in a way that doesn't give her ANY kind of resolution - she doesn't overcome any character flaw through her death, she doesn't learn anything, she doesn't even get to see the family that she wanted to bring back. She never found peace. She never found happiness. She never overcame that mental scars that the red room left her with. It was SO painfully unsatisfying. Her death scene gave me ZERO catharsis.

And after that, it somehow got EVEN WORSE - as Tony got a huge extended funeral for his heroic sacrifice, while Nat's heroic sacrifice was barely even mentioned by the surviving characters.

Even leaving aside the obvious feminist issues with all this - Natasha's treatment in this movie is infuriating on a basic story-level. It's like if Faith would have been killed halfway through season 3 of 'Buffy', instead of getting the extended arc that she ended up getting. Natasha was just transformed into the most compelling character of the movie, only to be killed off with zero resolution and zero catharsis.
And I was just completely checked out of the movie once that happened. Cap lifted Mjolnir, and I felt nothing. Tony died heroically, and I felt nothing. Thanos turned to dust, and I felt nothing. Because I was just too pissed off about Nat's death.

I'm STILL mad about this...

In the comics and the animated series, Rogue steals Captain Marvel's powers and ends up putting her in an indefinite coma. Now the Fox movie version of Rogue couldn't do that because Fox didn't have the rights to the Captain Marvel character but now that Disney has the right to the X-Men they can. It would also distinguish their Rogue from the Fox movie version. If I remember rightly, Rogue started off as a villain so they've got that going for them.

Yeah, but Carol's movie made over a billion dollars. That's more than ANY X-Men movie ever made. She's not going away anytime soon. It doesn't matter what happened in the comics, money is FAR more important to Disney.
 
I think their reason for including the scene, when at first they wasn't sure, is kinda funny too.

EDIT: sorry, was in my thought when my attention was diverted with things of import.

Anyway, they tell the story how they thought her death in that manner would be unfair, but one female on their staff liked it, so they took that as justification to go against their own instinct and put it back in the movie.
 
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Yeah, but Carol's movie made over a billion dollars. That's more than ANY X-Men movie ever made. She's not going away anytime soon. It doesn't matter what happened in the comics, money is FAR more important to Disney.

The X-Men movies were made before the Superhero Genre really kicked off with the MCU and the latter ones were kind of in competition with the MCU. With the MCU in full swing and the name recognition of the X-Men from the Fox movies, the X-Men would easily be a big earner for Marvel when they are incorporated. Also the X-Men are a diverse group of individuals with characters from all over the world, they can tick the various PC boxes without being obvious about it.

The first Captain Marvel movie might have done well because it was heralded as the first MCU superhero movie with a female lead, that doesn't automatically mean the second one will be as positively received eg the first Ironman movie was highly praised, yet the second Ironman movie is considered one of the weakest in the MCU. Marvel will try and get their money's worth out of Captain Marvel for sure, but killing her off will also be a "big" and "momentous" moment that is sure to draw the crowds in. Also she'd be killed off by a female character so they'll be no whines of "how patriarchal to have the lead female superhero killed off by a male character to further that male character's story. This movie is so sexist!"
 
My thoughts on the death of Black Widow are this: We've been strung along before by the MCU. Loki and Gamora were supposed to be permanently dead, with no hope of recovery, and now we have both characters running around free again in "Endgame." Okay, they cheated and said that these are previous versions of the characters, not "our" Loki and Gamora, but they're back, nonetheless. The same thing is going to happen with Natasha, even if she isn't "our" girl. They'll all be back. Count on it.

And on that note, I seem to recall there being a story arc at one time about a second Captain America in the 50's, which just happens to be when Steve traveled back in time to. Anyone here want to bet that we don't see that Cap appear somewhere in the MCU, either in the movies or on the new Disney channel? Even if it winds up being an animated series, we haven't seen the last of Captain America yet.
 
My thoughts on the death of Black Widow are this: We've been strung along before by the MCU. Loki and Gamora were supposed to be permanently dead, with no hope of recovery, and now we have both characters running around free again in "Endgame." Okay, they cheated and said that these are previous versions of the characters, not "our" Loki and Gamora, but they're back, nonetheless. The same thing is going to happen with Natasha, even if she isn't "our" girl. They'll all be back. Count on it.

And on that note, I seem to recall there being a story arc at one time about a second Captain America in the 50's, which just happens to be when Steve traveled back in time to. Anyone here want to bet that we don't see that Cap appear somewhere in the MCU, either in the movies or on the new Disney channel? Even if it winds up being an animated series, we haven't seen the last of Captain America yet.
I said pretty much the same thing in a previous thread and I was told nope, it's called Endgame for a reason.
 
Hmph, I saw her death as sorta like the Terminator giving his life in Terminator 2, or possibly even Buffy in season 5 in The Gift (at least how I saw it before this board ruined it for me, now making it feel more like a suicide). She got ample time, more than many others, and her sacrifice was only overshadowed to me by Tony Stark (through granted, it would've been nice to show her funeral as well, but having one in a movie over 3 hours was already pushing it). If I were in her position, I'd have done the same as she did, and for more reasons than those stated.

She's the one Avenger I can feel "represented" by, btw, and one of the two characters that keep me coming back to the Avengers at all. I'd love an origin movie where she is the star, but also fear how they'd mess it up.

And as a side note...plenty of women have reproductive problems, some inflicted upon them, and saying that women like that are "less of a woman" is the real offensive language. From what I recall, Natasha didn't really say that, she was saying how she was treated and indoctrinated made her feel like a monster herself. Of course twitter warriors had to air their grievance careless of the offense and pain they were causing.

But hey, people aren't abusing their power anymore in Hollywood or elsewhere, so might as well focus on this.
 
Adele was on the radio earlier, does that count?

And then there's the potential disaster that is Captain Marvel. Whether it's deserved or not, the lady is definitely unpopular with a very vocal part of the fan base. There's at least a fair chance that she's not going to be able to carry the franchise into the future the way that Downey and Evans did. MCU may be clamoring to get some of the old guard back just to boost ticket sales.
 
Skanky Vamp
Skanky Vamp
preaching to the choir
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