NFA vs Chosen - no, not which is best

[bespangeled]

In Chosen - season 7 is about the First, and the danger to the entire world. But Buffy and company manage to destroy the uber-vamps and close the hellmouth for good, thus saving the world from an infestation of dangerous demons.

In NFA - season 5 is about moral uncertainties and how they are affecting Angel's Avengers. Angel takes on the Black Thorn and destroys them, loosing a demon hoard with no hope of beating them. Once the team is dead the demons will take over LA and do the same sort of damage the uber-vamps did.

Buffy prevents a plague of demons.
Angel lets loose a plague of demons.

Which one is right? Or are they both?

 

[Fuffy Baith]

Buffy prevents a plague of demons.
Angel lets loose a plague of demons.

I've never thought about it like that. I love both episodes and I think both are right for there respective shows. Chosen fits Buffy, NFA fits Angel. At the end of Chosen it's about Buffy not being the only slayer and getting to live a normal life (until it's ruined by the comics). With Angel, he's all about the big picture and trying to fight against the Senior Partners. He doesn't want to be a pawn in their Apocalypse anymore. So I think the cliff hanger ending works for him.

 

[Silverspike]

Never was really keen when it comes to Chosen, even at the time it first aired, and as time has gone on I've liked it less and less. The plot holes just keep staring out at me every time I try and watch it.

NFA I've always adored. I love how it ends and think it has an almost mythic quality to the whole thing. In your mind's eye they've either gone out in ablaze of glory or live on to carry on the fight as heroes often do. 😀

 

[The Bronze]

I want to say both and neither! By that I mean they were good endings for the show but I'm glad they carried on the story afterwards. Buffy, the scoobies and assorted others heroically save the world as she often does. The general feel of the episode was good and I enjoyed the outcome. I could nit pick about the Uber Vamps being a bit lame but for the most part it's good.

I think you're doing Angel a bit of a disservice by saying he unleashed the demons. Wolfram and Hart unleashed the demons. They could have done this at any moment. In fact I would suggest that the army was more likely to get bigger in the future. So Angel and the gang taking a stand against them and trying to make a difference was also a fitting ending.

 

[bespangeled]

I've never thought about it like that. I love both episodes and I think both are right for there respective shows. Chosen fits Buffy, NFA fits Angel. At the end of Chosen it's about Buffy not being the only slayer and getting to live a normal life (until it's ruined by the comics). With Angel, he's all about the big picture and trying to fight against the Senior Partners. He doesn't want to be a pawn in their Apocalypse anymore. So I think the cliff hanger ending works for him.

Well, as I recall 'the vampire with a soul will have a big impact on the apocalypse for good or for evil'. I'd say that by attacking the SP Angel started the apocalypse, not exactly a good thing. 

Never was really keen when it comes to Chosen, even at the time it first aired, and as time has gone on I've liked it less and less. The plot holes just keep staring out at me every time I try and watch it.

NFA I've always adored. I love how it ends and think it has an almost mythic quality to the whole thing. In your mind's eye they've either gone out in ablaze of glory or live on to carry on the fight as heroes often do. 😀

Yeah - Chosen had some big plot holes, including the fact that they didn't defeat the First, they only inconvenienced it. I do like NFA but putting my preference aside, doesn't it matter that Angel knew they were going to die (whether they did or not) and knew he was unleashing hell on earth as much as the beast did, and he still decided to start the fight. Yes, Lindsey said we are living the apocalypse, but I don't think a hoard of demons made that any better.

 

[Silverspike]

Well If we're talking about right, well then certainly not Chosen as I loathed the so called empowerment spell. Very badly thought through that one. 😀

 

[bespangeled]

I want to say both and neither! By that I mean they were good endings for the show but I'm glad they carried on the story afterwards. Buffy, the scoobies and assorted others heroically save the world as she often does. The general feel of the episode was good and I enjoyed the outcome. I could nit pick about the Uber Vamps being a bit lame but for the most part it's good.

I think you're doing Angel a bit of a disservice by saying he unleashed the demons. Wolfram and Hart unleashed the demons. They could have done this at any moment. In fact I would suggest that the army was more likely to get bigger in the future. So Angel and the gang taking a stand against them and trying to make a difference was also a fitting ending.

Why would you think W&H wouldn't want this battle? Even Angel acknowledges that the SP will be able to recreate the CBT so this is more of a cry out for justice than a plan to achieve it. This is what W&H has wanted all along - vampire with soul starts the apocalypse.

As for the comics - I don't read them so I would doubt anyone survived except the SP. 

Well If we're talking about right, well then certainly not Chosen as I loathed the so called empowerment spell. Very badly thought through that one. 😀

Yes, I loathe that too. We do have a thread for whether that was moral. But if you just focus on the necklace you know that their efforts achieved what they wanted - a closed hellmouth.

Angel did get the CBT taken out, but LA will pay the price for that act f defiance. 
Just a thought - Angel is about moral ambiguities and in the fifth season that was by far and away the theme.

Is NFA a morally ambiguous ending? I don't doubt that they had their reasons, and that they believed in them, but the result is an apocalypse. And I agree with Mark Twain - Man is not a rational animal - man is a rationalizing animal.

 

[The Bronze]

Why would you think W&H wouldn't want this battle? Even Angel acknowledges that the SP will be able to recreate the CBT so this is more of a cry out for justice than a plan to achieve it. This is what W&H has wanted all along - vampire with soul starts the apocalypse.

As for the comics - I don't read them so I would doubt anyone survived except the SP.

The prophecy was about a vampire with a soul playing a key role in the apocalypse. Wolfram and Hart wanted that role to be playing for their side and helping them achieve their apocalypse. I don't think Wolfram and Hart were waiting for Angel's permission to start the apocalypse. He just pissed them off and they sent the horde, which they could have done at any time. They may have wanted the fight at some point but it's pretty clear it wasn't at that moment and they wanted Angel with them, not against them. Otherwise they would have just killed him at any moment during the series rather than keep him alive and attempting to win him round.

 

[bespangeled]

The prophecy was about a vampire with a soul playing a key role in the apocalypse. Wolfram and Hart wanted that role to be playing for their side and helping them achieve their apocalypse. I don't think Wolfram and Hart were waiting for Angel's permission to start the apocalypse. He just pissed them off and they sent the horde, which they could have done at any time. They may have wanted the fight at some point but it's pretty clear it wasn't at that moment and they wanted Angel with them, not against them. Otherwise they would have just killed him at any moment during the series rather than keep him alive and attempting to win him round.

So the prophecy was correct - the vampire with a soul played a key role in the apocalypse. The question is whether it was for good or for evil.

There would be no reason to send the horde if Angel and crew had not taken down the CBT. Things were going the way they wanted them to. Angel was - to all appearances - getting darker. I assume they were ready for a battle with all sorts of contingency plans at all times. They didn't seem to leave much to luck. They brought Angel over, hoping to use him. They put him into a morally grey position in which he was supposed to improve the bottom line and fight against evil. Did they herd him into doing what he did? Did they make life so miserable, and make Angel feel so guilty that he took the fight to them knowing he couldn't win?

 

[white avenger]

Ultimately, neither "Chosen" nor "Not Fade Away" could be seen as a real victory.

The First Evil's army of ubervamps was apparently destroyed, or at least decimated, and the Bringers, however more ot them there might be throughout the world, were rendered leaderless, and the world was given a new army of Slayers to defend it. The First Evil, however, remains intact and no doubt awaiting a new opportunity to strike once more.

The Circle Of The Black Thorn were simply the Senior Partners' agents in Angel's world. Destroying them did little, if anything, to injure the Senior Partners themselves, and they, just like the First Evil, await their opportunity to strike once more.

On the other hand, the immediate results of the battle in "Chosen" gave, at least, a respite from the First Evil's plans for domination. The immediate results of the battle in "After The Fall," however, was to send all of Los Angeles and the surrounding area, along with the entire population, to hell.

In the end, after the dust settles, neither battle resulted in either the defeat or elimination of the respective enimies.

 

[bespangeled]

Ultimately, neither "Chosen" nor "Not Fade Away" could be seen as a real victory.

The First Evil's army of ubervamps was apparently destroyed, or at least decimated, and the Bringers, however more ot them there might be throughout the world, were rendered leaderless, and the world was given a new army of Slayers to defend it. The First Evil, however, remains intact and no doubt awaiting a new opportunity to strike once more.

The Circle Of The Black Thorn were simply the Senior Partners' agents in Angel's world. Destroying them did little, if anything, to injure the Senior Partners themselves, and they, just like the First Evil, await their opportunity to strike once more.

On the other hand, the immediate results of the battle in "Chosen" gave, at least, a respite from the First Evil's plans for domination. The immediate results of the battle in "After The Fall," however, was to send all of Los Angeles and the surrounding area, along with the entire population, to hell.

In the end, after the dust settles, neither battle resulted in either the defeat or elimination of the respective enimies.

I agree - except I don't understand why the bringers no longer have a leader. The First lost much of it's army but I don't think it lost the ability to communicate.

And yes - On the other hand, the immediate results of the battle in "Chosen" gave, at least, a respite from the First Evil's plans for domination. The immediate results of the battle in "After The Fall," however, was to send all of Los Angeles and the surrounding area, along with the entire population, to hell.

Given that the entire 'verse is based on helping those who have no idea what the dangers are, then what Angel did was wrong. The metaphor was burning the house down while they were still inside - I see the great Chicago fire here.

 

[white avenger]

I agree - except I don't understand why the bringers no longer have a leader. The First lost much of it's army but I don't think it lost the ability to communicate.

The First Evil doesn't, or, at least I've never been given the impression that it does, communicate directly with the Bringers. He had Caleb, who referred to them as "his boys," to act as a go between between itself and them. We know that he engineered the destruction of the Watchers' Headquarters, and almost certainly coordinated the tracking down and killing of all of the Potentials. (A perfect choice for the job, in fact, given his attitude toward women) Once he was gone, they weren't much more than mindless muscle, pretty much the same as the ubervamps.

I might even go so far as to suggest that locating, recruiting, and training someone else of Caleb's unique abilities is the major reason that there has been no retaliation for the Slayers' final assault on the Hellmouth, but that's just another of my infamous theories.

 

[bespangeled]

The First Evil doesn't, or, at least I've never been given the impression that it does, communicate directly with the Bringers. He had Caleb, who referred to them as "his boys," to act as a go between between itself and them. We know that he engineered the destruction of the Watchers' Headquarters, and almost certainly coordinated the tracking down and killing of all of the Potentials. (A perfect choice for the job, in fact, given his attitude toward women) Once he was gone, they weren't much more than mindless muscle, pretty much the same as the ubervamps.

I might even go so far as to suggest that locating, recruiting, and training someone else of Caleb's unique abilities is the major reason that there has been no retaliation for the Slayers' final assault on the Hellmouth, but that's just another of my infamous theories.

Caleb didn't show up until way after the Bringers, nor was he there for Amends. And he certainly was not there in each country when his bringers werew attacking potentials.

 

[white avenger]

Caleb didn't show up until way after the Bringers, nor was he there for Amends. And he certainly was not there in each country when his bringers werew attacking potentials.

Are we sure of that? He admitted blowing up the Watchers' headquarters, so we know that he did at least some traveling internationally, and someone human would almost certainly be required to arrange for some sort of special transportation for the Bringers. They obviously couldn't travel by plane, train, or passenger ship. If not Caleb, then someone like him.

 

[bespangeled]

Are we sure of that? He admitted blowing up the Watchers' headquarters, so we know that he did at least some traveling internationally, and someone human would almost certainly be required to arrange for some sort of special transportation for the Bringers. They obviously couldn't travel by plane, train, or passenger ship. If not Caleb, then someone like him.

There was no Caleb when the First tried to get Angel to kill Buffy. If the First really needed a human in order to give orders they should have established that then. I always assumed that the Bringers got messages either telepathically or from some sort of manifestation. First/Buffy would be more than capable of telling the Bringers what to do.

 

[Skanky Vamp]

I always assumed that the Bringers got messages either telepathically or from some sort of manifestation.

In Amends werent they sitting under the Christmas tree lot scrying or something? I seamt to recall that.

But I do disagree with "Once the team is dead the demons will take over LA" that was never supposed to be the plan. W&H could have done that at any time. Wasn't it Epiphany when Angel took the elevator ride with Manners and he said something like 'we already have the place.' Angel even said that once W&H beat them it will be business as usual again and they would just serve as reminder to anyone that tries to rise up again. But.. I dont consider the comics to be canon so my views are skewed.

 

[bespangeled]

No - it wasn't the plan. It was a side effect that was ignored. Angel knew they couldn't win and they were all going to die. He had no reason to assume that once they were dead W&H would call off their attack. In fact, by cutting the link between the SP and W&H he made sure they couldn't call it off.

 

[AnthonyCordova]

In general I agree with the philosophy that it is better that you take a fight on your terms. You could wait for the senior partners to enact their plans when they were ready, on their terms, or you could surprise them and make that fight happen on your terms. In principle, I agree with Angel's approach.

The way the senior partners were conceived by the writers made the entire situation seem hopeless anyway. They were literally untouchable, operating from some unknown and safe hell dimension with power and influence all over the globe. If the ending to Angel seemed like a final act of desperation, it's because the senior partners were set up to be unbeatable by the creative team in charge. On the other hand, Angel and company have beaten heavy odds again and again, so without reading the comic continuation it is reasonable to me that they could find some way to win, which would mean the decision Angel made was the correct one. It's all fiction anyway and the final result is completely up to the writers. What might seem stupid could in retrospect be a stroke of genius if the writers desired that to be so. The whole situation seemed unbelievable anyway for a fantasy context. But all in all, I agree with the philosophy I mentioned in the start, so I have no problem with the way it unfolded.

I have a real "conversation killer" perspective on things like this, but I can't help it.

 

[bespangeled]

I read a fanic once wherre Angel had Gwen stashed away - and at a critical time she showed up and electrocuted all the demons. I always thought that was actually brilliant.

 

[Taake]

I read a fanic once wherre Angel had Gwen stashed away - and at a critical time she showed up and electrocuted all the demons. I always thought that was actually brilliant.

I love the idea, but I also love the imagery of Gwen "stashed away", hiding behind a dumpster or something, hihi.