I think it was Black Eyed Guy that mentioned in a thread that there's people saying that Spike did not try to rape Buffy, they're denying it. He didn't give more detail, but I have to know: What are the arguments for this? Has anyone heard anyone say this? Do you think that? How is the event denied?
The member said it in bypassing (I think that's the word), as if it's a common or wellknown discussion or opinion, and I'm clueless.
Black Eye GuyI can't belive you've never seen it discussed! I'll let someone who believes it wasn't attempted rape answer though, cuz IMO it was totally attempted rape!
I can see it both ways. I think most of his conscious mind thought it'd be like half the other times they had sex, where she started out saying no, stop, then ended up wanting to do it anyway. Like she wanted it physically but not mentally, and if he persisted the physical side would over ride the mental side (as has been known to happen to many people, ahem). But he did cross a line, went well beyond persistence in that scene. However, I think he'd have snapped out of it if she'd kept fighting, even if she hadn't thrown him across the room.
I can see it both ways. I think most of his conscious mind thought it'd be like half the other times they had sex, where she started out saying no, stop, then ended up wanting to do it anyway. Like she wanted it physically but not mentally, and if he persisted the physical side would over ride the mental side (as has been known to happen to many people, ahem). But he did cross a line, went well beyond persistence in that scene. However, I think he'd have snapped out of it if she'd kept fighting, even if she hadn't thrown him across the room.
Oh, so they think it's not attempted rape because he wasn't aware it was rape?
It's been lots of talk of that issue in Sweden, about cases in where women are forced to have sex, and that's proven, the court says there's enough evidence for that, but since intent can't be proven, that the perp doesn't get she didn't want it, it's not rape. So even tough it was forced sex, itrb was not rape. I assume it's the same rules for attempted rape in Sweden.
In Norway they have "accidental rape", a kind of crime, in which intent doesn't have to be proven for the guy/girl to get convicted. I assume he/she gets less time than a "real" rapist, but it's still a crime.
For me, it's attempted rape simply because she said no. The law might not agree, but I think so. I also think that every repeated come on is potentially sexual harrassment. A woman might be flattered if someone asks her out, but she might as well charge him for harrassment, so the line isn't so much fuzzy, as non-existant. It depends on the person's reaction, really.
For me, I guess the scene in the bathroom is simply attempted rape for me because he showed no sign of stopping, even tough she made her "discomfort" known. If he had succeded in raping her, it might possibly have been accidental rape, but rape nontheless. So while he might have been too "dumb" to get what he was doing, he was still doing it, so I can't call it anything else than attempted rape.
I guess it's splitting hairs, since we can all define rape in different ways.
And on one hand, he might not have gotten that she really meant it this time, but the line "Why didn't it do it?" later on makes me perfectly comfortable calling him a rapist, or attempted rapist, whatever.
---------- Post added at 07:38 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:35 PM ----------
Btw, I have seen this discussed, but not about it being attempted rape or not, but about how Spike thought during it, and how "bad" that made him.
For me it doesn't matter if he was aware or not, I know he's done way worse things, most likely including rape in a more sadistic way, so I know he's "bad". Raping his loved ones is a trickier question tough. He seemed fine with torturing Drusilla, so who knows how he sees love?
soulunsungSorry mate, but I don't necessarily think Spike attempted to rape Buffy. I think what he did was sexually assault her. But, then we can define rape in our own ways, as you said. Afterwards, is what sticks with - the look of horror on Spike's face.
Btw, I'm absolutely fine with calling it "accidental rape" as with the Norwegian jurisdiction (I didn't know about that law, more power to Norway, I say), I just very much disagree that Spike attempted to rape Buffy. I just don't see it - he was going for consensual sex (and Buffy's "no" does not mean it can't be consensual, read my reasoning for it in the linked threads), and there was no malice in his intentions.
I kind of think it was malice in his intentions, even if he thought she would say yes after a while. Because malice is the whole points. Force and taming.
Think about it. He lived with Drusilla for a hundred years, a woman who was broken by the man she now loves (Angelus). He hurt her in ways unimaginable to most, he broker her, took her will and made it his. I bet Spike thinks that's a acceptable way to start a relationship. Through brain-washing the intended mate.
Think off it. Buffy says she's disgusted with him, and he must see her pain, but he doesn't take it seriously. That he did throughout season 5 & 6. Because he expected to "tame" her.
So sure there was malice. But he expected that malice to make her his, and her to be happy with that
I think he would call what he did attempted rape, he would admit to it, even if he called it something else, maybe "seduction". And I think he could also say "That's how the best sex starts".
I doubt he would have stopped if he had been stronger than her, because he would have thought she would give up in the end, and he wouldn't have thought that was wrong. I think the only reason he didn't rape her from the start, was because he didn't think he had to.
But then there's the soul. Why did he get it? Did he think he couldn't convince her with persuasion or force? Or am I wrong, and he actually wanted to win her the "right" non-violent way?
I know I'm kind of off topic now, but whatever, my thread and all that.
Think about it. He lived with Drusilla for a hundred years, a woman who was broken by the man she now loves (Angelus). He hurt her in ways unimaginable to most, he broker her, took her will and made it his. I bet Spike thinks that's a acceptable way to start a relationship. Through brain-washing the intended mate.
I very much disagree. Sprusilla certainly was a twisted relationship by human standards, but I don't see Spike brainwashing or abusing her. In her pre-weakened days, Dru was if anything more of the active, mover part of their relationship, Spike the reactive one. He was genuinely affectionate to her, and she genuinely enjoyed his affections. It's probably as close to "true love" as two soulless creatures can get with each other.
Think off it. Buffy says she's disgusted with him, and he must see her pain, but he doesn't take it seriously. That he did throughout season 5 & 6. Because he expected to "tame" her.
I doubt he was able to see her pain like that. Pain lead to fun - for both Spike and Buffy - time and again in S6. To expect unsouled Spike to differentiate between different kinds of pain, different kinds of struggle, different kinds of "no" is asking a bit much.
I think he would call what he did attempted rape, he would admit to it, even if he called it something else, maybe "seduction". And I think he could also say "That's how the best sex starts".
I doubt he would have stopped if he had been stronger than her, because he would have thought she would give up in the end, and he wouldn't have thought that was wrong. I think the only reason he didn't rape her from the start, was because he didn't think he had to.
He liked her too much to attempt to rape her. Spike would not try to cause pain to someone he likes, unless it's the kind of pain that's mighty good fun. Rough-and-tumble sex was definitely something Buffy did enjoy, so nope, no malice in coming on to her forcefuly.
But then there's the soul. Why did he get it? Did he think he couldn't convince her with persuasion or force? Or am I wrong, and he actually wanted to win her the "right" non-violent way?
IMO, it's far less about winning Buffy over than it's made out to be. I'm certain he got the soul to prevent accidents like the one in the bathroom from happening again. Being shocked about accidentally causing pain (the not-so-fun type) to "someone cool", Spike goes out to get a better empathy ability and moral compass, because he doesn't want to hurt people he likes.
Putting Buffy through an accidental rape experience was the occasion moving him to get his soul, but his motivation goes far beyond "getting in her pants" by means of a soul. (That's a line of thought far more typical of Angel than of Spike. Spike has always - even pre-chip - been less self-centered than Old Broody.)
He liked her too much to attempt to rape her. Spike would not try to cause pain to someone he likes, unless it's the kind of pain that's mighty good fun. Rough-and-tumble sex was definitely something Buffy did enjoy, so nope, no malice in coming on to her forcefuly.
Skytteflickan88Find comfort in that "attempted rape" is for many a fuzzy term, hard to define. It's not like anyone says "Aww, taht was sweet of him." :)
Taking Smashed/Wrecked into account, I'm not so sure about that. It takes a good deal of empathy to differentiate when Buffy crying and screaming is just "playing hard to get" as part of foreplay, and when she really doesn't want it to happen. It's a level of empathy I'm almost 100% certain everyone of us is capable of, but to expect it from a soulless vampire is a bit much.
Taking Smashed/Wrecked into account, I'm not so sure about that. It takes a good deal of empathy to differentiate when Buffy crying and screaming is just "playing hard to get" as part of foreplay, and when she really doesn't want it to happen. It's a level of empathy I'm almost 100% certain everyone of us is capable of, but to expect it from a soulless vampire is a bit much.
Fighting was their foreplay. Screaming/Crying was NOT, ever. 🙂 Also, being a vampire, Spike can smell Buffy's arousal. I'm pretty sure that she wasn't aroused in SR.
Although it is true that as soulless vampire Spike really didn't have the moral compass to see that after he and Buffy split up there were boundaries. This is why he got a soul; So he would get that mental compass. This was even said by Joss Whedon in the "Chosen" commentary. 🙂
I very much disagree. Sprusilla certainly was a twisted relationship by human standards, but I don't see Spike brainwashing or abusing her. In her pre-weakened days, Dru was if anything more of the active, mover part of their relationship, Spike the reactive one. He was genuinely affectionate to her, and she genuinely enjoyed his affections. It's probably as close to "true love" as two soulless creatures can get with each other.
Yes, but I'm mainly talking about Dru and Angelus. Dru loves Angelus, because he broke her. I think Spike think that's a acceptable seduction techique, to win women. Remember how he said he was going to torture Dru in Lover walk so she would like him again? While I think he doesn't go for the brain washing immediatly, I think he has that as a option.
I doubt he was able to see her pain like that. Pain lead to fun - for both Spike and Buffy - time and again in S6. To expect unsouled Spike to differentiate between different kinds of pain, different kinds of struggle, different kinds of "no" is asking a bit much.
I wasn't asking that. I meant the pain she showed throughout season 5 & 6. While we would have backed off and said "Okay, this girl clearly doesn't like us, I'll leave her alone" Spike saw it as a minor obstacle.
In the bathroom tough, I'm not sure how he saw her NOs. I think he might have been able to see she really meant it, but still have gone for it, which is what I meant. Either way, he would have expected success. I think he was mainly out of control tough, and had a momentary laps of judgement, or whatever it's called. He had been relatively patient until then.
If that's enough to rate as malicious and rape, we're back to Buffy all-out raping Spike in "Gone". 😉
I think you have to explain that better to me, because I haven't read the issue (but spoil away).
He liked her too much to attempt to rape her. Spike would not try to cause pain to someone he likes, unless it's the kind of pain that's mighty good fun. Rough-and-tumble sex was definitely something Buffy did enjoy, so nope, no malice in coming on to her forcefuly.
But that's what I'm saying, he probably didn't see it as rape, he saw it as seduction. As a "rough-and-tumble". He, in his uncontrolled state, thought they were about to have a good time.
IMO, it's far less about winning Buffy over than it's made out to be. I'm certain he got the soul to prevent accidents like the one in the bathroom from happening again. Being shocked about accidentally causing pain (the not-so-fun type) to "someone cool", Spike goes out to get a better empathy ability and moral compass, because he doesn't want to hurt people he likes.
That is the dream senario, but I can't believe that. I think he did it mainly to get Buffy, not because it was wrong. I think getting a soul was act of desperation, not of guilt.
But who the hell knows? In a interview, James said that he thought he would have the chiped removed, or that he was in some way on his way to hurt Buffy, and that the en-souling was a surprise to him. So he played it angry, and that might be what's confusing many of us. That and the "Why didn't I do it line" that I read in a Buffy magazine that Jane Espenson regret putting in the episode.
---------- Post added at 11:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:45 PM ----------
Wishing Oceans agrees: I'm pretty sure that Dru "Loved" Angelus because she was insane and Angelus was her sire 🙂
I believe the sire part might matter, maybe that makes him have power over her, but I that the insane-part doesn't contradict my statement, so you're going to have to be specific. How am I wrong about Spike seeing how Angelus breaking Drusilla was successfull, thus making Spike think it was a good seduction technique?
---------- Post added at 11:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 PM ----------
Wishing Oceans agrees: I'm pretty sure that Dru "Loved" Angelus because she was insane and Angelus was her sire 🙂
Yes, the siring might have made Dru like Angelus, but I doubt that's the main reason for her loving him, that would be that he broke her. The insane part doesn't disprove my point tough, does it?
Wishing OceansI'm pretty sure that Dru "Loved" Angelus because she was insane and Angelus was her sire :)
From the beginning of the scene she was angry at him, she really meant it when she said that the thing between them was over.
Spike forced himself on Buffy, he ripped her robe, he said "I'm gonna make you feel it". She was screaming,she said "No please Spike..."(I don't remember exactly but I do remember the "NO" word). She was crying and tried to fight him, but ONLY when she kicked him using her Slayer power he stopped. His eyes, they were so paranoid at that moment. Afterwards we see the bruises in Buffy's legs. She didn't seem happy about it. She definitely didn't say no because "no" is their arousal word.
In s7, a single random touch from Spike made Buffy remember that scene.
I am sorry but I can't really understand how this scene can be negotiated as "attempted rape or not". IMO, if Buffy for some reason had lost her slayer power(for example by a serious wound) he would go all the way...without her consent.
Yes, the siring might have made Dru like Angelus, but I doubt that's the main reason for her loving him, that would be that he broke her. The insane part doesn't disprove my point tough, does it?
Yes, the siring might have made Dru like Angelus, but I doubt that's the main reason for her loving him, that would be that he broke her. The insane part doesn't disprove my point tough, does it?
She loved him because he "Broke her"? Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. 🙂 I still believe that she was into him because he was her sire, since, you know, all of the vampires were attracted to their sire from the start. Darla -> The Master, Angelus -> Darla, Spike -> Dru, etc. Of course, her insanity was just a plus. 😀
She loved him because he "Broke her"? Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense to me. 🙂 I still believe that she was into him because he was her sire, since, you know, all of the vampires were attracted to their sire from the start. Darla -> The Master, Angelus -> Darla, Spike -> Dru, etc. Of course, her insanity was just a plus. 😀
I guess you haven't watched the same crime shows as me, where you can see children, women who are tortured or simply "kept" until they start to love the people hurting them, and even when the cops free them, they love the people who hurt them. They're made into pets.
I think she was broken, and he was there, and she held onto him, and he encouraged that. How exactly that happened, if she instantly loved him or he made her love him and how much Spike knew about how it happened is anyone's guess, but as I said, I think Spike's view of a successful relà¡tionship is screwed up because of Drusilla and Angelus, in more ways than one.
I don't know, maybe I've read to many fanfics in my youth (I can't stand them now that I have actual friends and family who have been raped) about how Spike and Angelus torture and pleasure-rape Buffy, Willow and the others and turn them into loveslaves. That and tv-shows and stories about cults and shit have opened my mind up to how a mind can break, and that in so many people lies the possibity to be broken, and to love those that broke them.
Wishing OceansNo, I *haven't* watched those t.v. shows. I have read those fanfics though and I find them to be both horrifying and disgusting. :)
When Buffy finds out that Angel is Twilight, she is rightly furious and tries to kill him - after all, he's given here and the Slayer Army one hell of a time over the last year and is responsible for 200 dead Slayers. Angel talks himself out of his responsibility and goes on to talk Buffy (the woman who a mere two minutes ago was hellbent on staking him with a frickin' tree!) into having sex with him by saying it's their destiny, displaying nice lightshow effects, and topping it off with the puppy eyed question "Don't you want to be happy?" That clearly is seduction - and, if seduction equals rape, then Angel raped Buffy. She was going into the situation with sex being the very last thing on her mind.
It can only get worse, not better, if and when we find out the true reasons behind the light effects and who "the Universe"/the "real" Twilight are. If someone is pulling their strings by mind control, then both Buffy and Angel are being raped all through their sexathon in issue #34.
But that's what I'm saying, he probably didn't see it as rape, he saw it as seduction. As a "rough-and-tumble". He, in his uncontrolled state, thought they were about to have a good time.
That is the dream senario, but I can't believe that. I think he did it mainly to get Buffy, not because it was wrong. I think getting a soul was act of desperation, not of guilt.
Wishing Oceans agrees: No, I *haven't* watched those t.v. shows. I have read those fanfics though and I find them to be both horrifying and disgusting. 🙂
They're suppose to be. And I think many of them show realistic ways of how a person can break, because you see how the victom thinks and you think "I guess that could happen." Then there's the ones who have the victom fall in love with the rapist way too easy and completely unrealistic, making rape seem cuddly. Those are in a way even more horrifying and disgusting.
A bit off topic, I stopped reading fanfics all together after reading a comment where a reader said how nice it was the the couple got together, "healing" each other, even tough it was very clear how evil and selfish the rapist was and how angry and disgusted the victim was. It was out of character, but at the very least not cuddly, and that way I appreciated the story, but that reader's comment had me running.
---------- Post added at 12:20 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 AM ----------
When Buffy finds out that Angel is Twilight, she is rightly furious and tries to kill him - after all, he's given here and the Slayer Army one hell of a time over the last year and is responsible for 200 dead Slayers. Angel talks himself out of his responsibility and goes on to talk Buffy (the woman who a mere two minutes ago was hellbent on staking him with a frickin' tree!) into having sex with him by saying it's their destiny, displaying nice lightshow effects, and topping it off with the puppy eyed question "Don't you want to be happy?" That clearly is seduction - and, if seduction equals rape, then Angel raped Buffy. She was going into the situation with sex being the very last thing on her mind.
It can only get worse, not better, if and when we find out the true reasons behind the light effects and who "the Universe"/the "real" Twilight are. If someone is pulling their strings by mind control, then both Buffy and Angel are being raped all through their sexathon in issue #34.
Okay, but then I don't get how this is suppose to argue against my comment about:
"I think he would call what he did attempted rape, he would admit to it, even if he called it something else, maybe "seduction". And I think he could also say "That's how the best sex starts"."
And that, to me (and to the Norwegian law, if I get it right) is enough to make it not attempted rape.
I guess you haven't watched the same crime shows as me, where you can see children, women who are tortured or simply "kept" until they start to love the people hurting them, and even when the cops free them, they love the people who hurt them. They're made into pets.
It's called Stockholm Syndrome and it happens quite a bit in kidnappings, hostage situations, and such. Due to stress, cognitive dissonance, and the abductor's tendency to blame the authority figure for their own actions, the victim begins to empathize with their captors. Give it long enough, the victim will be convinced s/he loves his/her captor, either as family or sexually, depending on the situation.
From the beginning of the scene she was angry at him, she really meant it when she said that the thing between them was over.
Spike forced himself on Buffy, he ripped her robe, he said "I'm gonna make you feel it". She was screaming,she said "No please Spike..."(I don't remember exactly but I do remember the "NO" word). She was crying and tried to fight him, but ONLY when she kicked him using her Slayer power he stopped. His eyes, they were so paranoid at that moment. Afterwards we see the bruises in Buffy's legs. She didn't seem happy about it. She definitely didn't say no because "no" is their arousal word.
With the history of those two, all of this is not enough to count as anything but "mixed signals" to someone with limited empathy and a second-hand moral compass.
No doesn't mean no - that's what Buffy taught Spike all through Smashed-Wrecked-Gone... so she has no right to "play victim" afterwards when he's initiating sex over her no. (And guess what, she doesn't. Everything after the bathroom scene suggests she does accept her share of responsibility for what happened there, and to my knowledge, she never once called it "rape" herself (that word being used only by Xander and Dawn).
Which was perfectly written and acted, and will forever be my counter-argument to anyone saying the aftermath of the bathroom scene had been handled badly. It was handled excellently and realistically.
I am sorry but I can't really understand how this scene can be negotiated as "attempted rape or not". IMO, if Buffy for some reason had lost her slayer power(for example by a serious wound) he would go all the way...without her consent.
Okay, but then I don't get how this is suppose to argue against my comment about:
"I think he would call what he did attempted rape, he would admit to it, even if he called it something else, maybe "seduction". And I think he could also say "That's how the best sex starts"."
My point is disagreement that admitting to seduction equals admitting to rape. (If it were like that, I suppose a lot of BB users would have to admit being rapists, too. I guess a very sizeable portion of people who ever have had interpersonal sex will have been "guilty" of seduction.)
Sorry InsaneMystic I will have to disagree. I don't see anything accidental here. Spike wanted to have sex with Buffy and she didn't anymore. She clearly didn't cause she was screaming and crying. Any other time(such as Smashed/Wrecked or Dead things), she said "no" and "stop" but we can see her face expression which meant "keep going".Plus Spike is able to sense fear or lust in others just like any vampire. So the fact that he kept going, saying these words to her, and she was so desperate clearly proves that he wanted to rape her because she was now resisting. True resistance. And she felt fear. There is no way that he believed she still wanted him.
Also, there is no way she has a responsibility in this. She had a responsibility because she started a relationship with a soulless killer. After the bathroom scene, Buffy should grab a stake and kill him. That should be the end of Spike.
Just because she didn't call it rape, doesn't mean it isn't. She accepted Spike in s7 and felt sorry for both him and herself cause now he has a soul and he is totally different.
Skytteflickan88I think I can actually say there's a big possibility that Spike was to out of control to get that she was serious. He seemed to be going mental. I'm not saying it was okay, but I'm saying "wasn't all there".
Sorry InsaneMystic I will have to disagree. I don't see anything accidental here. Spike wanted to have sex with Buffy and she didn't anymore. She clearly didn't cause she was screaming and crying. Any other time(such as Smashed/Wrecked or Dead things), she said "no" and "stop" but we can see her face expression which meant "keep going".Plus Spike is able to sense fear or lust in others just like any vampire. So the fact that he kept going, saying these words to her, and she was so desperate clearly proves that he wanted to rape her because she was now resisting. True resistance. And she felt fear. There is no way that he believed she still wanted him.
Also, there is no way she has a responsibility in this. She had a responsibility because she started a relationship with a soulless killer. After the bathroom scene, Buffy should grab a stake and kill him. That should be the end of Spike.
Just because she didn't call it rape, doesn't mean it isn't. She accepted Spike in s7 and felt sorry for both him and herself cause now he has a soul and he is totally different.
I agree with this, but I don't think that Spike intended to rape Buffy. He was quite twisted, and didn't understand the boundaries.
And, for whoever asked for the exact words JW said in the Chosen Commentary, it was "He didn't understand the boundaries of their relationship; he was soulless." 🙂
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