No attempted rape?

[ToShanshuInLA]

I'm sorry but I consider rape to be forcing someone to have sex against their will and unless someone can prove to me that sex, whether Buffy wanted it or not, was Spike's intent, than I will have to keep disagreeing with you.

Wasn't he kissing her, grabbing at her, trying to take off what she was wearing and saying things like "I know you felt it when I was inside you"? What else could he have intended other than sex?

 

[Stakesteak]

Just to clarify, yes I do believe that he was trying to initiate sex, without a doubt. However he was going for what he thought to be consensual sex as their relationship throughout that entire season was based on one of them not wanting sex, the other forcing the issue, and the one giving in and enjoying it. Until she forced him off of her, with his poor moral compass due to his lack of soul, he had no idea that she legitimately did not want to engage in sex and probably just thought that she was playing a little extra hard to get. Rape was not his intent and what I was trying to say in that last sentence was that I do not believe that Spike wanted to force Buffy to have sex against her will. I believe this was evidenced by his reaction after she forced him away. After Buffy made him understand that she didn't want him to lay a finger on her, he immediately obliged and left, ashamed that he had hurt her without even realizing it. If Spike had actually attempted to rape Buffy, that is to force her to have sex no matter what, I don't believe that he would have stopped when he did.

 

[dan k]

Posted this in other thread.

After watching "Seeing Red" again tonight i tend to agree with the people who believed Spike didn't realize exactly what he'd done until Buffy kicked him away. That's not condoning what he did but i think he thought Buffy would eventually agree to having sex like she had done before and vice versa.

He ultimately realized how terrible his behaviour had been and sought off to make amends. I truly believe he wasn't thinking about rape when he tried to force himself on Buffy. That might not make any sense but its what i believe.

When he got his soul back he was able to understand Buffy better. Consequently he found a way into Buffy's heart. I myself don't see any reason to have a grudge on Spike. What he did was wrong but that wasn't the same man in season 7.

He made a mistake by you have to consider what had gone on in his relationship with Buffy before "Seeing Red".

 

[theroyalgoat]

Yeah, but you said "even Xander" as if it was weird that Xander would be able to tell it was attempted rape.

I said even Xander, because even though he wasn't a witness to it, he could see the bruisess and he saw Spike run out of there that even he put it together.

If people really need more proof on the subject though, just look up the writer's comentarty.

I really try not to be too judgmental, but the people in this much denial about "definations of rape" really scare me. It was obvious that that was what the writers were trying to represent. And anyone who can defent someone continuing sexual advances after a forcible no...makes me sick to my stomach. I don't even want to argue with them, so this will be my last post in this topic.

I would just like to say though that I have been raped. It's not something that I'm ashamed of anymore...or even scared to talk about. She didn't just say no...she begged him to stop and he didn't. That's why I always skip over the episode when I watch them all again and that's why it's rape. It's not just saying no for the millionth time. The only time she begged him for anything was when she begged him to stop and he didn't.

Defend him all you want, the writers had the right idea blaming it on his soulessness....what's your excuse?

 

[Stakesteak]

I am very sorry to hear that you were a rape victim. I can completely understand why this subject matter is so personal to you and if you wish to make no further comment on it or if you prefer to never watch the episode again, your decisions have my utmost respect.

However, that does not give you the right to personally attack anyone on this thread who is debating Spike's actions. We are not discussing real world events, nor is anyone defending Spike defending actual rapists or marginalizing actual rape victims. We are discussing a FICTIONAL event played out by FICTIONAL characters, one of which isn't even human. We're not talking about James Marsters, nor are we even talking about souled Spike, we are talking about Spike the soulless demon; please understand that and don't accuse us of defending actual sexual assault perpetrators.

My argument that Spike, the soulless demon, did not attempt to rape Buffy has no more bearing on my views of real world sexual assault between two human beings than a horror fan's love of the genre has to do with their views on actual murder.

 

[Taake]

Even as a soulless demon he knew what rape was. I daresay he raped a couple of women during his vamp days and was probably well aware of their reactions.
Now I do think he didn't realize what he was doing to Buffy but that doesn't make it okay.
It is still attempted rape! He was just too caught up in what he wanted to give a rats ass about what she wanted.

When she kicks him off he realized what he was doing judging by the look on his face. But before that he was little more than an animal, but again this does not make it okay. It is not an excuse.

It does not make it okay either to claim that their previous rough house sex negates her rape-scene "no". claiming that is just like saying "bitch had it comin'"

 

[saturn5]

Spikes motives are irrelevant, he attempts to have sex with Buffy and when she resists tries to force her. If she had been anyone but the Slayer he would have succeeded.

I don't know why anyone has a problem seeing the rape for what it was, until he can get his soul back he can never be good and Buffy can never truly love him. This event lays that on the line for him and that's what inspires him to get his soul back

 

[Stakesteak]

After re-reading some of the posts making the argument that Spike attempted to rape Buffy, I think you guys might be misunderstanding what the term attempted rape means. Saying that his intentions or motives are irrelevant make no sense when you accuse him of attempted rape. The whole meaning of the word attempt means to consciously try for something. In this case, saying that Spike attempted to rape Buffy is like saying that Spike made a conscious attempt to rape her. The argument that I and several others have raised is that Spike did not make any such attempt as he completely thought that he was initiating consensual sex based on their previous sexual encounters and that thought was reinforced by his poor moral compass due to the lack of a soul. I'm not saying that what Spike did was right, I'm just saying that it's not attempted rape. What I would call it is unintentional sexual assault. While that might seem nit-picky to some of you, it makes a huge difference as one (attempted rape) implies a malicious intent where Spike consciously tries to rape Buffy, whereas the other (unintentional sexual assault) implies that he did something wrong without realizing it. Considering that after realizing that he was hurting Buffy he immediately stopped and sought out a way to ensure that he could be a good man and not do something like that again, I find it hard for anyone to believe that what he did to Buffy wasn't completely unintentional.

I feel that a lot of people are also making an error in that I think they are judging Spike as if he were a normal human or at least had a soul and therefore could distinguish right and wrong as easily as you or I could. For a normal human, yes, it is completely unacceptable to not read Buffy's signals and recognize that not one inch of her wanted sex. I don't want anyone here to think that if these events happened between two human beings that I would defend the guy like I'm defending Spike. Humans have souls though and in the Buffyverse, that's the single most important factor in being able to discern right from wrong. Spike lack of soul is a severe handicap in this regard as he didn't realize that what he was doing was wrong because he was unable to see how this encounter was any different than their past forceful encounters, all of which led to consensual sex. While this would be no excuse if this were a normal human or if Spike had a soul, the very nature of a soul in the Buffyverse makes it completely understandable that he legitimately had no idea that what he was doing was unwanted, wrong, and causing harm to Buffy. I'm not saying his actions were right, as I said previously, I'm just saying that he did not try to rape her.

Finally, to comment on the statement you made, Taake, I completely agree that Spike knew what rape was. I also firmly believe that he knew it wasn't good and certainly not something you do to people you love. That's a huge reason why I don't believe that he attempted to rape Buffy. He loved her about as much as a soulless creature can love someone and never wanted to harm her, going so far as to lay his life on the line in the past for her. When he tried to initiate that sexual encounter in the bathroom he honestly thought it would be something she wanted. He had no thought of trying to rape her or harm her in any way, which is why he was so shocked and ashamed of himself when he realized that he actually was hurting her.

This is probably the last major post I will make on this subject as I feel that I have extensively dissected the scene, heavily weighed the arguments on both sides of the debate, and arrived at the soundest conclusion that I can think of and articulated my reasoning about as eloquently as I possibly can. I realize that this is a very sensitive subject and I believe that a few posters have taken the topic matter very personally and mistakenly believed that by arguing against the accusations against Spike, that I'm defending rapists in general. I try not take the accusations against me personally and I hope this last post has made it clear that my views of Spike's actions do not reflect my views of actual human beings doing similar things. I'll still reply to posts if I believe someone misinterpreted what I was saying, but beyond that I'm really looking forward to more light-hearted Buffy threads 🙂 . It's been very enjoyable participating in this debate and challenging as I certainly didn't take the popular viewpoint. I just hope that people can understand my reasoning and hopefully respect my viewpoint.

 

[GrrArghx]

Saying that his intentions or motives are irrelevant make no sense when you accuse him of attempted rape. The whole meaning of the word attempt means to consciously try for something. In this case, saying that Spike attempted to rape Buffy is like saying that Spike made a conscious attempt to rape her.

Isn't sex without consent the definition of rape? He tried to have sex with her when she didn't want it.

That's attempted rape.

 

[Stakesteak]

Isn't sex without consent the definition of rape? He tried to have sex with her when she didn't want it.

That's attempted rape.

Except that he didn't realize she did not want it because he lacked a soul and couldn't discern from her actions that his advances legitimately weren't wanted. The moment he realized it he stopped. When you immediately cease your advances when you realize the other person doesn't want to you're not trying to rape them.

 

[saturn5]

Except that he didn't realize she did not want it because he lacked a soul and couldn't discern from her actions that his advances legitimately weren't wanted. The moment he realized it he stopped. When you immediately cease your advances when you realize the other person doesn't want to you're not trying to rape them.

No, he stops because she fights him off and it's only because she's the Slayer she can do that. Surely Spike has raped and murdered thousands of women and young girls over the century as his story to Dawn and his begging Buffy to kill him in season 7 proves.
Why is this so hard for people to accept? Spike is no more culpable for what he did without his soul than Angel is for what Angelus did? Once he gets it back everything is wiped clean

 

[BuffyElevated]

My feelings on the scene is that it was absolutely attempted rape. Anytime someone does not want sex and the other tries to force it on them, it is attempted rape.
For me, watching the scene the first time, I saw it this way: In a lot of situations, when someone is so emotionally distraught the way Spike was, they're not completely in touch with reality. This is in NO way an excuse for someone to do something wrong; it's only an explanation as to why they don't feel that they're doing anything wrong. I was in a situation similar to the one in this scene once when I was in college. I was dating a guy who was mentally unstable (although I definitely didn't know that at the time). One night we got into it and I told him I wish I'd never met him and left. He came to my dorm room later to "talk" and thought he could make it all better if he could just "make love to" me. But he was so upset and feeling so passionate about his feelings at the moment that he didn't realize he was a)not going to be able to fix it with one night of sex and b)he was being way too rough and trying to force himself on someone who wanted no part of him. If my roommate hadn't come home when she did, I shudder to think what might have happened. Anyway... like I said, I'm definitely NOT trying to excuse Spike for what he did. I'm simply stating that people who are crazed like that are not going to be thinking clearly. Therefore, I can see both sides of the argument, but I stand by the fact that no matter how he felt, Spike was trying to rape Buffy because she didn't WANT sex at the time.

 

[Stakesteak]

No, he stops because she fights him off and it's only because she's the Slayer she can do that. Surely Spike has raped and murdered thousands of women and young girls over the century as his story to Dawn and his begging Buffy to kill him in season 7 proves.
Why is this so hard for people to accept? Spike is no more culpable for what he did without his soul than Angel is for what Angelus did? Once he gets it back everything is wiped clean

You and I must have very different definitions of what fighting someone off means. Buffy was able to kick Spike off yes, but if Spike legitimately wanted to rape her, do you really think that would've been all it took to stop him? He's one of the toughest fighters in the Buffyverse and it would've taken a heck of a lot more than a kick. The kick got his attention and Buffy's words made him realize that he was doing something wrong so he stopped. I don't see what his motivation would be for getting a soul if he only stopped because Buffy was too strong to rape her. I would agree that Spike has probably raped and murdered a fair amount of women (thousands might be pushing it 🙂 ), but he was doing those things to people he didn't care about. He cared about Buffy and wouldn't consciously try to do something that'd hurt her so much. I completely agree with your conclusion that ensouled Spike cannot be held accountable for the actions of soulless Spike, I'm just saying that soulless Spike was not aiming at rape in that bathroom.

And HisMrs, thank-you for your post. You provided a lot of thought and detail in your argument and I can definitely respect your viewpoint. I have a very close friend who went through something very similar our first year of college and I am just very glad to hear that your roommate came back when she did. What I would ask you to consider in Spike's case is that without a soul, it makes it 10x harder for him to discern how his advances here were wrong and very different from their past physical encounters. I'm not saying what he did was right, like a said in a previous post, my belief is that Spike unintentionally committed sexual assault. I do not believe he attempted rape as forcing Buffy to have sex against her will was not his intent and he stopped when she made him realize he was doing just that.

 

[BuffyElevated]

And HisMrs, thank-you for your post. You provided a lot of thought and detail in your argument and I can definitely respect your viewpoint. I have a very close friend who went through something very similar our first year of college and I am just very glad to hear that your roommate came back when she did. What I would ask you to consider in Spike's case is that without a soul, it makes it 10x harder for him to discern how his advances here were wrong and very different from their past physical encounters. I'm not saying what he did was right, like a said in a previous post, my belief is that Spike unintentionally committed sexual assault. I do not believe he attempted rape as forcing Buffy to have sex against her will was not his intent and he stopped when she made him realize he was doing just that.

You know, it's very possible that the writer's intent in this episode was to project the demon side of Spike coming out. You make a good point when you mention the fact that this was pre-soul, and it can be argued that because of the fact that he didn't have a soul, he didn't realize what he was doing was wrong. I respect that viewpoint and understand it, but I still think that the writers wrote it as an attempted rape scene on purpose.

 

[Wesley]

StakeSteak, you're arguing motive and also the 'insanity' defense in a couple of these posts.


To your first argument that Spike wasn't trying to rape Buffy because he 'wouldn't do that'. He was just trying to have consensual sex that she wasn't consenting to. Sure sounds great, try telling the Judge that and see if he just says 'Sounds good have a great day.'

'I swear to God your Honor, she agreed every other time we had sex and I expected her to agree this time, if I knew she didn't agree I would never have tried.'

Perhaps we're arguing two different things, SS is arguing that he literally did not walk into that bathroom thinking 'Man, I'm gonna rape Buffy' whereas we're arguing the legal definition of attempted rape.

So I agree with him in the sense that Spike did not specifically enter the house planning on having non-consensual sex with Buffy. On the other hand, attempting to have sexual relations with anyone for any reason without their consent is by its very definition Rape, which is what happened. Spike quite literally attempted to have sexual relations with an unwilling participant, Buffy, and because of that it was attempted rape.

In the eyes of the law motive of attacker does not factor into whether or not someone was raped or an attempt at rape occurred.

As far as the arguing that Spike didn't have a soul so was less empathetic or aware that his actions towards Buffy are probably true. However, being crazy does not mean you can't commit crimes.

I would say that in the 'eyes of the law' there was absolutely a crime committed in that bathroom that night. If you brought the video tape to a Judge and the background of the two participants into evidence I imagine Spike would get something like 2 years probation and mandatory sex counseling. Probably wouldn't do jail time.

Not only in the eyes of the law, I think in eyes of Spike and Buffy it was also wrong. Yes he stopped when she was able to kick him off and he realized what had happened. I don't know that if you asked them 3 years later if either of them considered it an 'attempted rape'... I would say that Spike would deny it and Buffy would deflect the question. However it's a dark stain on both their souls and one that Spike will never live down because he did something terribly wrong.

Can you imagine what you would do if someone tried that with your sister or daughter or mother or loved one? Can you imagine what Angel would have done if he had walked in at that moment with Buffy whimpering and Spike forcing himself upon her? (I imagine the only time we have ever seen Angel lose his mind even close to the kind of reaction he would have had was when he attacked Wesley in the hospital. Our normally quiet and reserved hero would have gone insane and ripped Spikes throat out with his bare hands)

Those reactions alone will tell you how terrible the situation was, whether you want to call it attempted rape, date rape, or mind rape. Spike went there and attempted to take something he had no permission to take, and no matter how many excuses or reasons you give him it happened and it's his fault and it was a rape.

 

[StarPrincess]

I'll have to agree with SteakStake for this reason:

[about Episode 6-19, "Seeing Red," the scene in which Spike tries to rape Buffy:] "That was the hardest day of my life. I have turned roles down because they are rapists. It's something I don't even want to watch. If I even click on it on TV, I have to click it off or I'll put my foot through the screen... What you see on that screen is just my terror at having to do that scene. There's not really any acting going on and I haven't watched the scene. I've seen little clips. You know, 'previously on Buffy the Vampire Slayer.' They show it sometimes and I'm always like, 'Oh, God.' ... The writers are fabulous, but when I showed up on set that day I told them: 'Sometimes you guys just don't know what you do. You just do not know what you're asking us...' I'm proud of it artistically, but as a human being I never, never, never want to do a scene like that again and I will always refuse because I know what it does to me." [United Press International, June 11, 2003]

 

[pieceofgosa]

This is my first foray into this debate & it should be noted that I think the writers wrote the scene as an attempted rape in order to give Spike the motivation he needed to do something as drastic as getting his soul back. That is not the point I want to make though. When Angel & Buffy had sex in S2, Buffy was 17 & Angel was (discounting vampire years) 27. Under California law that is statutory rape and I quote:

California State Penal Code: Section 261.5 Unlawful Sexual Intercourse

(c) Any person who engages in an act of unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor who is more than three years younger than the perpetrator is guilty of either a misdemeanor or a felony, and shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.

Source: California Statutory Rape Laws | Sexlaws.org

Now I could give a crap about that in terms of the show, what they did was consensual & actually not illegal where I'm from. The reason I bring it up is to point out what I see as the futility of attempting to apply real-life morals & legal definitions to a fantasy show. We can argue about the charcters motivations, we can argue about the writer's intentions but I believe that when we start using phrases like "guilty of attempted rape" then we are on very shaky ground as that has actual legal meaning in the "real world".

 

[Stakesteak]

I would agree that the writers wrote that scene as an attempted rape and that the director set it up to convey that feeling. However, there are many writers involved in making BtVS and different writers generally write each episode just as not many episodes have the same director from previous episodes. The true continuity of the show is in the characters and the actors' portrayal of them. My judgement of the bathroom scene is based on the character of Spike as he evolved throughout the series (both before and after), and how he acted during the scene, as I believe that that overrules the writers and director of this one episode. If you disagree than that's fine, it just means that we'll have to respectfully agree to disagree.

Now did Spike commit sexual assault? Of course! Though I believe it was unintentional so I refer to it as unintentional sexual assault. I do not consider it rape because to me, rape is willfully forcing someone into sex against their will and Spike didn't try to do that. I feel that a lot of us agree on what Spike did, just some call it attempted rape while I consider it unintentional sexual assault.

You mention a court of law, Wesley, and I would agree with you that if that scene were shown to a judge in a real court case, the person accused would be convicted rather quickly. However, I don't believe that analogy applies here as if this were a court case than the accused would be a human being, and he would be convicted because the law has deemed that a sane person (if they were insane they would be acquitted on grounds of insanity and sent to a hospital for treatment/evaluation) has the moral competency to understand when their sexual advances aren't wanted and therefore has no excuse. I completely agree with this as I've said in previous posts that if Spike were a human being I would wholeheartedly agree that he committed attempted rape. Spike doesn't have a soul though and therefore was incapable of discerning that his advances weren't wanted as easily as you or I could so it took a much blunter way to get the message through to him. When he understood that what he was doing was wrong, he immediately stopped and sought to redeem himself so that he could be a better man.

 

[GrrArghx]

I just find it hard to believe that he 'didn't know what he was doing'. I don't think being soulless means you don't know the difference between right and wrong. Spike knows wrong from right, we've seen that from him countless times. The difference is not caring whether it's wrong or not.

Spike was acting on what HE wanted and was neglecting to listen to what Buffy wanted. He didn't care that she was saying no and trying to push him off of her because he wanted 'to make her feel it'.

I think that line "I'm gonna make you feel it" made it quite clear what his intentions were.

I'm not saying AT ALL he got up that day and decided "I'm going to go rape Buffy tonight". But, I think that by the time he was ripping her robe open, his intentions were to have sex with her, whether she wanted to or not.

That's what makes it attempted rape, to me anyway.

I understand you guys' POV now, as best I can anyway. But I've never heard of intent factoring into whether or not a situation like this can be called attempted rape or not.

 

[sk]

Personally I don't really care what you call it.
Let it be rape, attempted rape, unintentional sexual assault or whatever. It's pretty much the same to me.

In the end Spike tried to force himself on Buffy.
As a victim how does it matter if that wasn't his intentions or if his lack of soul made him not understand?

/SK