No attempted rape?

[Misty]

It is considered Attempted Rape and if you want to call it Rape then you can, because many people do consider this situation rape. Although I'm very against rape and I thought it was very bad of Spike, I do agree with some people that Spike didn't wake up that morning thinking that he was going to rape Buffy. To me, it was a beg for sex turned into rape because I don't think he thought Buffy was going to say not to him right away and actually mean it. But I do agree with GrrArghx that Spike isn't innocent in this because he didn't stop trying to have sex the first time Buffy told him to stop and he did say that he was going to make her feel it which was wrong too. But they way I see it is that Spike payed Buffy back by getting a soul and that it was good of him to do that.

 

[pieceofgosa]

You mention a court of law, Wesley, and I would agree with you that if that scene were shown to a judge in a real court case, the person accused would be convicted rather quickly. However, I don't believe that analogy applies here as if this were a court case than the accused would be a human being, and he would be convicted because the law has deemed that a sane person (if they were insane they would be acquitted on grounds of insanity and sent to a hospital for treatment/evaluation) has the moral competency to understand when their sexual advances aren't wanted and therefore has no excuse. I completely agree with this as I've said in previous posts that if Spike were a human being I would wholeheartedly agree that he committed attempted rape. Spike doesn't have a soul though and therefore was incapable of discerning that his advances weren't wanted as easily as you or I could so it took a much blunter way to get the message through to him. When he understood that what he was doing was wrong, he immediately stopped and sought to redeem himself so that he could be a better man.

This is basically what I was trying to say. It's impossible to apply real world legal definitions to this situation as no court in the world has (or ever will) try a case against a vampire, soul or not.

 

[pieceofgosa]

Stakesteak agrees: Though it'd certainly be an itneresting sight if they did! 😛

I'm sure Kate says something about a "nice, sunny courtroom" 🙂

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

This is one of those topics that we will never stop discussing and arguing about.

Some fans think Spike attempted to rape Buffy. Some don't.

Some fans think Spike's lack of soul and therefore a moral compass excuses him from the responsibility of this actions in this scene. Some don't.

Some fans think it was Buffy's "fault" for giving Spike "mixed signals." Some don't.

Some fans think Spike was trying to have sex with her, misinterpreted her signals, because "no" had meant "yes" in the past. Some don't.

By all universally accepted definitions of the term, yes, Spike attempted to rape Buffy.

Basically, it is what it is. All that matters is that Buffy, arguably the victim in all this, decided to forgive Spike. They moved past it. They made something ugly into something beautiful. She learned to trust him again. He proved himself to her.

Love. Give. Forgive. - remember?

It's beyond me why the fans can continue to condemn Spike for something he did that she chose to forgive. It's like condemning Angel for killing Jenny Calendar.

 

[BuffyElevated]

I agree, Joan... While yeah I wasn't happy with the scene and it made me kinda leery towards Spike for a while, by the end of Season 7 I had forgiven him for it. Like I said, I can understand how it happened, and you can tell at the end of the scene that Spike was immediately sorry for what he had done... If the writers had written it so that he showed no remorse, my feelings on the scene would change drastically, but since Spike immediately showed remorse, I was able to forgive the character and move on from it.

 

[crazysoulless]

I don't think that Buffy being compassionate and empathetic enough to forgive Spike for nearly raping her while she was injured and in pain should be reason enough for the viewers to have automatically see the situation as over and done with. Buffy forgives everyone for everything they've ever done to her. She forgives people that she loved and trusted for betraying and violating and hurting her all the time. It is one of her defining characteristics. I would not be able to forgive half of the things she has forgiven.

Giles poisoned her to take away her powers and let her go on patrol oblvious to the dangers and was planning on locking her in a boarded up manor with a demon whose specialty was torturing women, and went behind her back to try to murder Spike. Willow zapped her with lightning bolts and erased her memory and created dirt monsters to kill her, rammed a truck into the car she was in, tried to turn her sister back into The Key. Faith was planning on torturing her to death with knives and scapels, tried to frame her for murder, seduced her boyfriend, kissed Angel in front of a chained up Buffy, shot him with a poisoned arrow and then taunted her with the fact that she heard it was "wicked painful", knocked her mother unconcious, and used a device to switch bodies with her (while allowing Buffy to get drugged tied to a gurney chained in a van and transported somewhere to get punished for Faith's crimes) and let a man have sex with Buffy's body without Buffy's consent. Xander faked amnesia instead of apologizing for trying to rape her while partially possessed and is the reason that Buffy had to send Angel to Hell and spent four months grieving.

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

I agree, Joan... While yeah I wasn't happy with the scene and it made me kinda leery towards Spike for a while, by the end of Season 7 I had forgiven him for it.

Same here, despite how annoying and grating I found him at some points. I wish there had been a better catalyst for him going to get his soul back, though.

 

[Kean]

I just want to say this becuase I think in tearing this issue apart we are completely missing the point.

Spike tried to rape Buffy. This is fact. There are no excuses for his actions in that bathroom, regardless of how Buffy behaved before, she was telling him NO in that moment. There is no reason or explanation that make Spike's actions understanable or acceptable.

There is a far greater responsibility on us as posters, especially us adults, when speaking on this matter because it is one that effects us, either directly or indirectly, everyday. This issue is real and we can't just treat it as any other silly Buffyverse topic. Our allegiance to characters/ships whatever should be the least important factor here. Everytime we find a reason to relieve Spike of the responsibility of his actions in Seeing Red we are saying that what he did was ok. We are saying that rape or attempted rape is ok.

This isn't about Buffy or Spike, it's about right and wrong, and what happened in that bathroom was WRONG!

 

[This Year's Girl]

I just want to say this becuase I think in tearing this issue apart we are completely missing the point.

Spike tried to rape Buffy. This is fact. There are no excuses for his actions in that bathroom, regardless of how Buffy behaved before, she was telling him NO in that moment. There is no reason or explanation that make Spike's actions understanable or acceptable.

There is a far greater responsibility on us as posters, especially us adults, when speaking on this matter because it is one that effects us, either directly or indirectly, everyday. This issue is real and we can't just treat it as any other silly Buffyverse topic. Our allegiance to characters/ships whatever should be the least important factor here. Everytime we find a reason to relieve Spike of the responsibility of his actions in Seeing Red we are saying that what he did was ok. We are saying that rape or attempted rape is ok.

This isn't about Buffy or Spike, it's about right and wrong, and what happened in that bathroom was WRONG!

Couldn't agree more! Well put! But I do think that it's good that this topic is up for discussion in some ways beacause it can make people revalue some thoughts they may have had about the subject rape before. I also believe that it is a good thing that Buffy decided to forgive Spike like many of us have, but more for her own sake than for his.And I think it's important to separate that it's not the action itself that is being accepted when she forgives him, it's him as a person.

 

[Kean]

I also believe that it is a good thing that Buffy decided to forgive Spike like many of us have, but more for her own sake than for his.And I think it's important to separate that it's not the action itself that is being accepted when she forgives him, it's him as a person.

Totally agree .

 

[Eleftheria]

^It doesn't let me karma you again Kean!

It is a fact. It was wrong. It WAS attempted rape. And if Buffy for some reason could not defend herself or was stripped of her Slayer powers he would go all the way. I don't care if the look in his face was horrified/regretful/whatever...no matter how much people like Spike we can't ignore the event itself. It was AR.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Everytime we find a reason to relieve Spike of the responsibility of his actions in Seeing Red we are saying that what he did was ok. We are saying that rape or attempted rape is ok.

This isn't about Buffy or Spike, it's about right and wrong, and what happened in that bathroom was WRONG!

Yes, of course what Spike did was wrong, but we're dealing in fantasy fiction here. All opinions are valid, and they don't necessarily reflect our RL opinions on the matter. All I'm referring to is the age-old Double Standard that exists between Angel and Spike; without a soul, Spike is held accountable for his actions, while Angelus isn't. This is what I have an issue with. I don't think anyone is arguing that it wasn't WRONG what Spike did - what fans disagree on is WHY he did it.

No one here believes rape is alright, obviously. As fans, our job is to analyze our characters and figure out their motivations.

Me being a fan of S/B has nothing to do with how I approach this subject, Kean. In the Buffyverse, a "soul" is an analogy for a conscience. Spike did not have a soul at that time, therefore, he did not arguably know the difference between right and wrong. This is the argument I hear most often, and I think there is some truth to it. 🙂

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

^It doesn't let me karma you again Kean!

It is a fact. It was wrong. It WAS attempted rape. And if Buffy for some reason could not defend herself or was stripped of her Slayer powers he would go all the way. I don't care if the look in his face was horrified/regretful/whatever...no matter how much people like Spike we can't ignore the event itself. It was AR.

I agree completely. We don't ignore the AR - in fact, I think it's quite the opposite; if anything, we're fixated on it. Just check out the pages and pages and pages of discussion on this topic alone.

Spike is controversial. His actions are controversial. We'll never agree on his motivations for the AR, and some fans will never be able to understand why Buffy forgave him. My theory? Love. What else could it be? It's just what it is. And like crazsoulless said - a staple of Buffy's character is her ability to forgive even ppl who arguably don't "deserve" it. (Love...give...forgive.)

 

[Kean]

Yes, of course what Spike did was wrong, but we're dealing in fantasy fiction here. All opinions are valid, and they don't necessarily reflect our RL opinions on the matter. All I'm referring to is the age-old Double Standard that exists between Angel and Spike; without a soul, Spike is held accountable for his actions, while Angelus isn't. This is what I have an issue with. I don't think anyone is arguing that it wasn't WRONG what Spike did - what fans disagree on is WHY he did it.

No one here believes rape is alright, obviously. As fans, our job is to analyze our characters and figure out their motivations.

Me being a fan of S/B has nothing to do with how I approach this subject, Kean. In the Buffyverse, a "soul" is an analogy for a conscience. Spike did not have a soul at that time, therefore, he did not arguably know the difference between right and wrong. This is the argument I hear most often, and I think there is some truth to it. 🙂

---------- Post added at 11:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------


I agree completely. We don't ignore the AR - in fact, I think it's quite the opposite; if anything, we're fixated on it. Just check out the pages and pages and pages of discussion on this topic alone.

Spike is controversial. His actions are controversial. We'll never agree on his motivations for the AR, and some fans will never be able to understand why Buffy forgave him. My theory? Love. What else could it be? It's just what it is. And like crazsoulless said - a staple of Buffy's character is her ability to forgive even ppl who arguably don't "deserve" it. (Love...give...forgive.)

My fear with this topic is that by filtering the issue through these characters the reality of topic is desensitised.

My stance is that if a rapist or attempted rapists motivation is utterly irrelavent in RL then I apply the same logic to fiction.

 

[Flannen]

Me being a fan of S/B has nothing to do with how I approach this subject, Kean. In the Buffyverse, a "soul" is an analogy for a conscience. Spike did not have a soul at that time, therefore, he did not arguably know the difference between right and wrong. This is the argument I hear most often, and I think there is some truth to it. 🙂

The problem I have with that argument is when it runs alongside the notion that Spike was 'special' because he did good things pre-soul. He knew it was right to keep Dawn's identity as a secret, for one, he also knew keeping some demon eggs warm was wrong. I'm sure there are also many other incidents in season five and six where Spike knew he was doing the right or wrong thing, I just can't think of any others right now 😉. But my point is, that the argument about him not knowing the difference between right and wrong is only plausible and acceptable if he isn't glorified for all the right things, (that he knew were right) whilst not having a soul.

And another argument presented is that he eventually realised what he was doing and snapped out of it. So even though he didn't have his soul then he still knew that what he was doing was wrong and thus stopped. And for those reasons, I don't think him not having a soul should just be accepted and the whole thing brushed aside.

 

[Misty]

Yes, of course what Spike did was wrong, but we're dealing in fantasy fiction here. All opinions are valid, and they don't necessarily reflect our RL opinions on the matter. All I'm referring to is the age-old Double Standard that exists between Angel and Spike; without a soul, Spike is held accountable for his actions, while Angelus isn't.

I agree. I think it's very unfair how people always hold ensouled Spike responisble for AR and not Angelus for trying to kill Buffy. I'm very against rape and Spike's AR on Buffy, but I'm also very against stalking and murder which was what Angelus did. I really can't forgive Spike because he wouldn't stop the first time Buffy told him too, but I really can't forgive Angel either even if he was ensouled because Angelus did have a clue what he was doing to Buffy and Spike did too, but the difference is that Spike was planning to have sex with Buffy but it turned to rape when he started forcing her, Angelus on the other hand did actually wake up planning to kill Buffy which was wrong but it was because he didn't have a soul. Even if I can't forgive them both, they both have excuses and I'm not taking Spike's side in this or Angel's side.
Basically what I'm saying is that I think Spike and Angel are both wrong but they both have excuses for their behavior which is that the both didn't have souls and they didn't know what's right and wrong because their brains didn't work properly without souls! Wait do vamps have brains? Oh wait I'm stupid, yes they do lol!

 

[ToShanshuInLA]

The difference between Angelus and Spike (pre-soul) is that it seemed like they were trying to humanize Spike and they never tried to do the same with Angelus. (Also there is a drastic change from Angel to Angelus while there isn't as much in Spike souled and not souled). I think that might be why Spike's actions are hard to get past for some people. And really, even though I could get somewhat past it, I still get confused about what they were trying to do with his character in season 6. lol

 

[LadyLavinia]

Of course Spike had tried to rape Buffy. There was a lot of rape and attempted rape going on in Season Six.

Willow used magic to commit psychic rape against Tara. By bringing Buffy back from the dead, Willow is again guilty of psychic rape and the Scoobies condoned it. Buffy tried to rape Spike in "Gone" before he consented to sex. Warren tried to rape the real Katrina before he killed her. And Spike tried to rape Buffy in "Seeing Red".

 

[Flannen]

Joan the Vampire Slayer agrees: I get what you're saying, but it's a complicated issue.

I wouldn't necessarily say it's complicated. I think it's contradictory, certainly and for the reasons I gave in my last post. How can I just accept that Spike was like a child who doesn't know the difference between right and wrong when I'm being reminded of all the good things he did do? Did he not do them intentionally? In which case, I don't have to commend him for them. Or he did do them knowing they were right and therefore continue to do what he did to Buffy knowing he was wrong?

Can you at least acknowledge that not only is it complicated, but it's a valid reason for why I won't brush it under the carpet as he 'didn't know any better'.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Can you at least acknowledge that not only is it complicated, but it's a valid reason for why I won't brush it under the carpet as he 'didn't know any better'.

I get what you're saying, and of course I agree it's a contradictory issue. You are totally valid, and a lot of fans share your opinion. The viewpoint that Spike didn't know any better is just how I personally choose to deal with and interpret the issue. You can choose to read it however you see fit. But I do believe that there were some things Spike knew were wrong (based on how others had reacted to these things in the past) there were some things he was less aware of being wrong because he hadn't "learned." It's my belief pre-soul Spike learned his humanity and morals from Buffy.

Some fans do commend Spike for his "good" actions and also at the same time excuse his bad ones - I agree.

See, I'm one of the those people who is on the fence with Spike and his "good" deeds pre-soul. *sigh*
I don't truly believe he was "good" before he got his soul...but on the other hand, I acknowledge the decisions he made for seemingly no other reason then that he cared (such as helping the Scoobies even after Buffy died when there was nothing in it for him, other then to carry on her mission).

Spike tried to be good. He had a hard time. He wasn't bad and he wasn't really good, either. He was stuck in between. It's my belief that he simply didn't posses the ability to be truly good until he got his soul. He wanted to be good arguably but couldn't because he didn't have the conscience and moral compass to guide him in acceptable human behavior. As a vampire without a soul, he mimicked human culture in an attempt to integrate into it.

It's clear he was trying to do good - whether it was for Buffy's approval or a desire for personal development. On one hand, he DID protect Dawn for seemingly no reason other than because he cared how Dawn's death would affect Buffy. But adversely, one can't ignore that after he got his chip taken out, the first thing he did was try to kill a innocent girl. Spike is no saint. He's a controversial character who's actions and motivations can't necessarily be filed away in a labeled box with a tidy explanation. Spike is good and bad. What I meant was that when dealing with such a complicated character, the issues surrounding him or her become complicated.

A lot of the allure of Spike for many fans is based in their belief that he was always different than other vampires. That he was able to be good without a soul, whether because he created the humanity himself or that some of it was leftover from when he was turned.

 

[TheChosenTwo]

I just want to say this becuase I think in tearing this issue apart we are completely missing the point.

Spike tried to rape Buffy. This is fact. There are no excuses for his actions in that bathroom, regardless of how Buffy behaved before, she was telling him NO in that moment. There is no reason or explanation that make Spike's actions understanable or acceptable.

There is a far greater responsibility on us as posters, especially us adults, when speaking on this matter because it is one that effects us, either directly or indirectly, everyday. This issue is real and we can't just treat it as any other silly Buffyverse topic. Our allegiance to characters/ships whatever should be the least important factor here. Everytime we find a reason to relieve Spike of the responsibility of his actions in Seeing Red we are saying that what he did was ok. We are saying that rape or attempted rape is ok.

This isn't about Buffy or Spike, it's about right and wrong, and what happened in that bathroom was WRONG!

The only thing I can say is totally

Edit: deleted my comment about the "Spike didn't have a soul" thing 😀