No attempted rape?

[Kana]

It is a difficult one because it is a very sensitive issue, however I think there is a difference between looking at the scene and context and studying it and validating it.

I don't think anyone is advocating rape, nor do I believe this is thread with misogynistic implications. It sounds contraversial but I just don't think that.

How do we deal with this? Can we remove the characters and the context from the scene? If we do that then it robs us of any discussion and maybe that's the point, maybe this issue is to sensitive for some to discuss. I don't know.

Some look at the fact that Spike didn't have a soul. I must admit, I myself held and probably still hold this view. My original argument was that we shouldn't judge soulless vampires by soulled human (or vamps)' standards, and that should extend to any action. Despite the elusive inner nature of the soul, I mostly conclude that a soulless vampire has a different psychological disposition than that of a human. Many cry, is this an excuse? It depends on several questions or should I say that answers to these questions. One question is, in the nature of fairness, we have to blame Angel(us) for similar and worse. Any vampire would be held accountable for acts of violence, whether sexual or not.

But does any of this even matter? Isn't rape, just rape anyway? Well these reason I think it's important because it's all about Spike's identity. If he was simply like any other evil vampire (and I actually once posited that he is...) then evil is within his nature or at the very least, whether he's conscious of it or not, he's hard wired that way, so morality in itself is tricky when dealing with soulless vampires because while they can feel love and loyalty, right and wrong on a larger scale doesn't move them. This isn't to say he doesn't understand morality, but more that he is confused about he himself relates to moral acts and due the turbulent nature of their relationship of abuse, it's possibly wasn't clear what was ok, even if maybe considered wrong. Because his sense of identity is so closely linked to those he loves, it isn't a surprise that his moral identity is tied to that as well.

To be honest, I'm waffling and what's the point of this anyway? Well my biggest question is, do we blame soulled Spike for this? And if so do we blame Angel for his misdeeds as well?

 

[dan k]

I think and would hope that everyone agrees that what Spike did was wrong. It was attempted rape, i don't think anyone can have a valid point to counter that but i think some people on here are trying to merely explain how they forgave Spike.

He made a mistake and he realized that as soon as Buffy kicked him off. He was livid and ashamed with himself and as a result went and got his soul back which showed a lot of character.

This doesn't excuse him for what he had done, he went too far but i think he thought he could do what Buffy did to him, in terms of forcing the issue, which would eventually lead to Buffy complying to have sex with him. His feelings for her overwealmed him, consequently he attempted to do something terrible.



So in answer to the question it was attempted rape and Spike was in the wrong but the picture for me isn't that black and white.

 

[Stakesteak]

Unfortunately, I think that this thread is reaching the length of past threads on this subject where most people who haven't been involved in it the entire way through tend to skip most of the pages of comments (the ones in the middle in particular) and just post their thoughts about the subject without looking at the development of the debate much. It's perfectly understandable as it would take a good long while to read all of them, though it's also a bit of a shame since a lot of good points made by several people don't seem to be considered as they haven't been read.

I'm one of the few who defend Spike's actions as accidental and therefore don't view his actions as attempted rape (as I believe that term implies an intent to rape) so much as accident sexual assault or accidental attempted rape if you will. Of course I'm not saying that what he did was right in any way, my argument is that he never wanted to rape Buffy in that scene and that he didn't consciously try to. For my reasons why, I would welcome anyone interested to look back at some of my previous posts in this thread, particularly in pages 3 and 4.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I'm one of the few who defend Spike's actions as accidental and therefore don't view his actions as attempted rape (as I believe that term implies an intent to rape) so much as accident sexual assault or accidental attempted rape if you will. Of course I'm not saying that what he did was right in any way, my argument is that he never wanted to rape Buffy in that scene and that he didn't consciously try to. For my reasons why, I would welcome anyone interested to look back at some of my previous posts in this thread, particularly in pages 3 and 4.

Many fans agree with your assessment that Spike meant Buffy no real harm in tht scene. But you're right - regardless of his intent - attempted rape is still attempted rape.

While I was browsing though gabriellabelle's journal, I found a rather interesting meta she wrote a while back discussing the AR. It's a good read, she makes some great points - and the comments are particularily interesting.

Here's an excerpt:

While it is in-character for Buffy to avoid the personal responsibility for her abuse of Spike, it's unsatisfying, as an audience member, to watch her be relieved of any guilt or accountability for what she did. Instead, it's all put on Spike's shoulders to bear.

And, thus, Spike becomes an even more sympathetic character.

This particular aspect of the AR isn't frightfully critical of me, and it does, admittedly, come down to "It's just not fair!" However, I do feel that the contrast between what's shown onscreen and what we're meant to see is significant enough to point out.

Seeing Red: The Dreaded Topic

If you read it, I'd be curious to know what you think. Feel free to PM me.

 

[VampireJason]

The AR is the main reason I 'ship Bangel over Spuffy any day. Like Joss mentioned in the commentary for "Chosen" if they had Spike and Buffy together it's kinda like saying the guy who attempted rape on her gets the girl which isn't a good message to send. And yeah I know about Luke and Laura, he raped her and they got married but that doesn't make it right. I guess what makes it better is because Spike was tortured and had to go through several painful task to get his soul back and sacrificed himself to save the world and close the Hellmouth. But that's not gonna change what happen, kinda like Angel might be trying to redeem himself but he still killed Drogyn when he had a soul, that death will always be on his hands.

 

[dan k]

Connor makes a good point, Spike didn't have a soul meaning his actions can surely be forgiven like Angel was after he murdered Jenny.

 

[StarSlayer]

Connor makes a good point, Spike didn't have a soul meaning his actions can surely be forgiven like Angel was after he murdered Jenny.

Agreed. And the way Angel displayed Jenny's dead body to Giles too. That still gives me chills ::shivers:: But, he was eventually forgiven because they knew he didn't have a soul when he did it. It's just kind of hypocritical when the same can't be said toward Spike.

 

[Wesley]

Agreed. And the way Angel displayed Jenny's dead body to Giles too. That still gives me chills ::shivers:: When Angel didn't have a soul, he never realized the consequences of his actions. But, Spike did, especially after the AR.

For what its worth. I think Angelus did realize the consequences of his actions more then Spike ever could. That's why he took such exquisite pleasure in it.

Angel/us is much more in tune with the emotions of everything hes done good and evil. That's why he has a 'split' personality with Angelus.

Spike was always more balls then brains, that's why he did what he did and that's why he is less different soul versus no soul.

 

[StarSlayer]

For what its worth. I think Angelus did realize the consequences of his actions more then Spike ever could. That's why he took such exquisite pleasure in it.

Yeah, I realized that before your post, which is why I edited it, lol! But, what I meant with realizing the consequences was that Angelus never felt guilty over torturing and killing his victims where as Spike did feel guilty after the AR. If he wasn't in love with Buffy, I doubt Spike would have felt guilty though.

Spike was always more balls then brains, that's why he did what he did and that's why he is less different soul versus no soul.

He may be less different, but there still was a demon inside. I always saw the whole vampire-having-a-soul thing as a way for the vampire to control that demon, and bring out the conscience/human side. That's just my opinion though 🙂

 

[Wesley]

OK SS, sorry to jump so quick 🙂

On your second point, I absolutely agree that Spike pre versus post is different. I just think he has a better time dealing with it because his personality is more.... I don't want to say superficial. He just acts from his heart and Angel/us acted from his brain. They are two different guys and their re-ensouling was reacted to differently by them in different ways.


Also JtvS, great post there I agree with that womans entire blog post!

 

[Kelsey]

The AR is the main reason I 'ship Bangel over Spuffy any day. Like Joss mentioned in the commentary for "Chosen" if they had Spike and Buffy together it's kinda like saying the guy who attempted rape on her gets the girl which isn't a good message to send.

And it's better for the heroine to end up with a man who tormented her and tortured and killed her friends, and did even worse things later if you count the comics? I understand the AR as an argument against Spuffy, but I don't at all understand it as an argument for Bangel. With that logic, neither vampire should end up with Buffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

I posted this in another thread regarding some things said in the meta, but it seems more appropriate here. The author does make some good points, but I do disagree with some other points she makes.

With the AR, we also get Buffy's final instance of being punished for sex (in TV canon). The AR was a direct result of the sex they had had previously. Spike was trying to initiate sex as they had done before, and he was unaware as to how the situation had changed. What a wonderful feminist message. A casual sexual relationship can lead to rape. Yay. S6, on the whole, seems to go out of its way to present sex as destructive to Buffy. The AR is just the icing on the cake in that regard.

Maybe I watched a different version of s6 (doubtful though), but I never saw the AR as a punishment for Buffy having sex with Spike and how she treated him, nor should it be seen as such. I actually hate when people say, "She had it coming." No one deserves that. Hell, Spike even knew that when he realized what he was doing! And he felt so guilty about it, as seen in "Beneath You." Instead, I always saw the scene as the demon inside Spike taking over his human side. He was still a vampire with no soul. I mean even Angel did some horrible things as Angelus, including rape.

I also never thought s6 presented "sex" as destructive to Buffy. Although it was an addiction to Buffy and this may sound odd, but it seemed like Buffy got somewhat better after having sex with Spike. For example, in the beginning of "Dead Things," she starts opening up and having a conversation with him. She obviously got to a point in their relationship that she felt was more than just sex, although she completely denied it. IMO, the "destructive" part of their relationship was rather how she emotionally abused Spike, even after they broke up. And Buffy and Spike discussed this in "Never Leave Me." The AR was Spike completely misreading the situation since Buffy did give a lot of mixed messages, and again, the demon overpowering his human side.

On a feminist level, it is appalling how the AR scene was handled. It's frighteningly regressive in the amount of power it gives to the potential rapist in terms of the aftermath. It victimizes the heroine of the show in a way we'd never seen before.

I agree that more could have been done, especially in s7, with the aftermath of the AR scene. However, I don't think Spike had that much power after the AR. Xander hated him, well into s7, for what he did to Buffy. And he always seemed quick to point that out to Buffy ("Beneath You," "Him," "Sleeper"). Plus, once Dawn found out, she completely cared less for him, even threatened to kill him if he ever touched Buffy again.

And it's not like Buffy welcomed Spike back with open arms. Even after she saw his penance in "Beneath You" and was trying to understand what it meant now that he had a soul, she still shuddered when he touched her ("Him"). Although Buffy was the victim, I always felt she still had the upper-hand in the aftermath.

Furthermore, I'm all for feminism and girl-power. But, the character of Buffy was always quick to change her feelings when it came to vampires getting their souls aka Angel. At the end of s2 when Angel got his soul back before she killed him, she immediately recognized the change. She knew she wasn't killing Angelus, the vampire who killed Jenny, tortured Giles, and tried to kill her and her friends. No way. She knew she was killing Angel. The man she fell in love with and the man who fell in love with her, hence her emotional good-bye to him and the effects afterward. But, I never see any feminist arguments over this, maybe caused she ended up killing him. So, even if Buffy quickly became sympathetic to Spike once she learned he had a soul despite the AR, I think it's within her character. I think it doesn't degrade her powerful side nor feminism for that matter, especially if someone is trying to seek forgiveness for their actions. I think it actually makes someone more powerful by listening to the person who wants redemption. And while Buffy didn't come out and say, "I forgive you Spike," her actions showed that she began to trust him again.

Yikes. I hope I'm making sense in all that. 🙂

 

[Misty]

Connor makes a good point, Spike didn't have a soul meaning his actions can surely be forgiven like Angel was after he murdered Jenny.

Agreed. I'm not saying that the AR wasn't bad, becasue it was, but Spike didn't have a soul. But he got a soul and fixed the problem in the end, and that was good.

 

[Kelsey]

Furthermore, I'm all for feminism and girl-power. But, the character of Buffy was always quick to change her feelings when it came to vampires getting their souls aka Angel. At the end of s2 when Angel got his soul back before she killed him, she immediately recognized the change. She knew she wasn't killing Angelus, the vampire who killed Jenny, tortured Giles, and tried to kill her and her friends. No way. She knew she was killing Angel. The man she fell in love with and the man who fell in love with her, hence her emotional good-bye to him and the effects afterward. But, I never see any feminist arguments over this, maybe caused she ended up killing him. So, even if Buffy quickly became sympathetic to Spike once she learned he had a soul despite the AR, I think it's within her character. I think it doesn't degrade her powerful side nor feminism for that matter, especially if someone is trying to seek forgiveness for their actions. I think it actually makes someone more powerful by listening to the person who wants redemption. And while Buffy didn't come out and say, "I forgive you Spike," her actions showed that she began to trust him again.

Yikes. I hope I'm making sense in all that. 🙂

Interesting points, and I agree. The problem is, rape is a subject that transcends the Buffy-verse. Since it's something that very deeply hits and disgusts the audience, it's harder to fit something like that into the canon rules of the verse. I think we're quicker to forgive murder, torture and whatever else Angelus did, because for some reason they don't carry the same kind of weight even though they're awful. It's probably because we as viewers don't have quite the same visceral reaction to it. If we had a scene where Angelus tried to rape Buffy, I don't think people would have been as forgiving of Angel.

I think, in the end, that's the problem. The rules of the 'Verse battle the way people think, and most people think rape is a disgusting, unforgivable crime. On top of that, the scene was just so well acted, and in that moment they didn't seem like Buffy and Spike. They seemed like a helpless girl and her crazed attacker.

 

[StarSlayer]

Interesting points, and I agree. The problem is, rape is a subject that transcends the Buffy-verse. Since it's something that very deeply hits and disgusts the audience, it's harder to fit something like that into the canon rules of the verse. I think we're quicker to forgive murder, torture and whatever else Angelus did, because for some reason they don't carry the same kind of weight even though they're awful. It's probably because we as viewers don't have quite the same visceral reaction to it. If we had a scene where Angelus tried to rape Buffy, I don't think people would have been as forgiving of Angel.

I agree. And even with rape, in BtVS, we never see Angelus try to rape someone (past or present), but I'm sure he did before getting his soul. For instance, in AtS

Spoiler

Darla brings the gypsy girl to Angelus, and it did seem to suggest that he raped her.

Yet, it's always Spike who gets the bad end of the deal because I think it's shown with Buffy. I'm not saying that what he did was okay, absolutely not. What he did was completely wrong. It's just Angel did horrible things without a soul as well, and over time, he is forgiven. Why can't the same be done with Spike, especially after he felt extremely guilty over what he did once he got his soul? In the legal world, murder actually carries more weight than rape.

I think, in the end, that's the problem. The rules of the 'Verse battle the way people think, and most people think rape is a disgusting, unforgivable crime. On top of that, the scene was just so well acted, and in that moment they didn't seem like Buffy and Spike. They seemed like a helpless girl and her crazed attacker.

Good points. And while rape is no doubt a horrific crime, it was something vampires did in the Buffyverse. Spike mentioned this to Buffy in "Never Leave Me." "Want to know what I've done to girls Dawn's age?" And if Spike did things like that, you can be sure that Angelus did as well, since he was always the worst vampire of them all. I also remember reading somewhere that JM said that his frightening looks weren't acting, but all real. And I think you're right. It didn't seem like Buffy and Spike. That's why, at least with Spike, I always felt it was the demon overpowering Spike. He looked so shocked, almost coming out of a daze, after realizing what he did.

 

[VampireJason]

Spike was a unique vampire, no doubt about that. Whereas Spike was capable of love without his soul (Example: Drusilla) Angelus wasn't as capable. But just because Spike got his soul back doesn't excuse all the crimes he committed when the demon was in control. And just because Angelus was cursed doesn't mean Angel's excused for the crimes he committed. Both of them feel guilty about the crimes they committed and are trying to make it up with redemption. But I meant what I said about Spuffy, Spike raped Buffy, Angelus didn't. Had Angelus raped Buffy I wouldn't want Bangel or Spuffy.

 

[StarSlayer]

VampireJason, that's my point. The fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy, the main protagonist of the show, is what people have a problem with. The fact that Angelus raped other people is what they forget, or try to forget, since it wasn't Buffy. It's a double standard.

 

[LizzieRainbow]

I see it as attempted rape. I can understand how he may have thought that by kissing her she may have said yes but when she was clearly shouting No at Spike and trying to get away from him, well im sorry but i see that as attempted rape.

 

[Kelsey]

Spike was a unique vampire, no doubt about that. Whereas Spike was capable of love without his soul (Example: Drusilla) Angelus wasn't as capable. But just because Spike got his soul back doesn't excuse all the crimes he committed when the demon was in control. And just because Angelus was cursed doesn't mean Angel's excused for the crimes he committed. Both of them feel guilty about the crimes they committed and are trying to make it up with redemption. But I meant what I said about Spuffy, Spike raped Buffy, Angelus didn't. Had Angelus raped Buffy I wouldn't want Bangel or Spuffy.

Like StarSlayer said, he did not actually rape Buffy. You're proving the other point I made in this thread, too, that torture, violence and murder are more forgivable than rape for some viewers. I just don't think that Angel's cruelty should be forgotten, whereas Spike's absolutely can't be. Like StarSlayer said, Angelus must have raped girls before, and it wasn't out of his character to try and rape Buffy--we just never saw it.

VampireJason, that's my point. The fact that Spike tried to rape Buffy, the main protagonist of the show, is what people have a problem with. The fact that Angelus raped other people is what they forget, or try to forget, since it wasn't Buffy. It's a double standard.

Exactly. I understand why it's there--because we saw everything in the situation--but that doesn't make it fair.

 

[VampireJason]

There's really no satisfying response. Everyone's gonna have different opinions. Spike attempted to rape Buffy, she was screaming in fear, it was a tough thing to endure. Yes Angel, as Angelus murdered people, raped them, tortured them, I know that but then again so did Spike. Spike admitted to being a monster but blamed Angelus for it in Angel Season Five after he got his soul back. Angelus never attempted to rape Buffy. If he did it would've changed everything for Bangel. Yes Angelus and Spike have souls now and seek redemption but as Angel mentioned in "Orpheus" his suffering is never over, he'll always be paying for the crimes he committed as Angelus and Spike will always pay for the crimes he did when he didn't have his soul