Right, my point is with that kind of logic, Bangel is just as flawed as Spuffy. If Buffy shouldn't be with a man who tried to hurt her, soulled or unsoulled, good or bad, Jekyll or Hide, she shouldn't be with either vampire. Saying, "Well, yes, Angelus raped people, but he never tried to rape Buffy, so they should be together" just doesn't make sense to me at all.
No attempted rape?
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Right, my point is with that kind of logic, Bangel is just as flawed as Spuffy. If Buffy shouldn't be with a man who tried to hurt her, soulled or unsoulled, good or bad, Jekyll or Hide, she shouldn't be with either vampire. Saying, "Well, yes, Angelus raped people, but he never tried to rape Buffy, so they should be together" just doesn't make sense to me at all.
Angelus is a completely different thing. A completely different creature.
G
GrrArghx
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I.... was completely distracted by your avatar for like, a good minute.
Anyway, yes, definitely. But if that logic holds up, then Spike is also a very different person from the one who tried to rape Buffy. I know that opinion is constantly in contention, because he didn't act nearly as different as Angel does from Angelus, but I still think it applies.
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
He didn't have a soul. The demon inside him could still literally overpower his human side.
Exactly what StarSlayer said. Even if he didn't act differently, he did have a soul, the very thing that makes Angel a completely different being than Angelus.
I never really saw the attempted rape as such a big deal.
But it's not because I want to justify Spike's actions, mind you. I can't stand Spike and I firmly believe that pandering to Spike's fans was one of the prime reasons BtVS was ruined. The thing is the AR totally pales in comparison with what Spike had done before. Thousands of murders, most likely many rapes too. Excuse my total non-shock that he would try to rape the woman he claims to love. He is the "do that guy". When Drusila seemed to like Angel more than him in S2 his response was to hit her on the head. In Crush he kidnaps Buffy too. Really, the only shocking thing is it took Spike so long to do it.
Buffy's non-reaction is, of course, problematic, to put it mildly but hardly anything extraordinary compared to what happened before. Remember how Spike had Harmony kidnap that surgeon this almost led to Riley's death? Next episode neither Buffy, nor Spike seem to remember this incident. The Council comes to Sunnydale and inexplicably they don't bother to dust Spike either. He kidnaps Buffy in Crush - again he (un)lives to tell the tale. So Buffy looking all dejected when in Villains she finds out her dear rapist has left town is merely another step on the road to Extreme Suckyness City. Whedon might brag about being responsible enough to not hook up Spike and Buffy in the end but IMO the actual reason for that was his fear of pissing off the Bangel fans. We are talking about someone who had no problem hooking up Xander with unrepentant mass murderer or taking Willow to the brink of destroying the world. For me Joss has no grounds whatsoever to claim any moral high ground, considering the lengths he went at to ensure that the Scooby Gang might as well be nicknamed the Murderers Gang. The guy spent so much effort trying to whitewash Spike in the episodes from "Family" to "Seeing Red" and show him as a reluctant hero instead of a monster that I find it rather dishonest of him to pretend he never meant to include any unfortunate implications, since you see the relationship didn't work out in the end. It's like saying Willow trying to destroy the world is totally okay since she stopped at the last second or Faith trying to strange Xander is fine because Xander survived.
But it's not because I want to justify Spike's actions, mind you. I can't stand Spike and I firmly believe that pandering to Spike's fans was one of the prime reasons BtVS was ruined. The thing is the AR totally pales in comparison with what Spike had done before. Thousands of murders, most likely many rapes too. Excuse my total non-shock that he would try to rape the woman he claims to love. He is the "do that guy". When Drusila seemed to like Angel more than him in S2 his response was to hit her on the head. In Crush he kidnaps Buffy too. Really, the only shocking thing is it took Spike so long to do it.
Buffy's non-reaction is, of course, problematic, to put it mildly but hardly anything extraordinary compared to what happened before. Remember how Spike had Harmony kidnap that surgeon this almost led to Riley's death? Next episode neither Buffy, nor Spike seem to remember this incident. The Council comes to Sunnydale and inexplicably they don't bother to dust Spike either. He kidnaps Buffy in Crush - again he (un)lives to tell the tale. So Buffy looking all dejected when in Villains she finds out her dear rapist has left town is merely another step on the road to Extreme Suckyness City. Whedon might brag about being responsible enough to not hook up Spike and Buffy in the end but IMO the actual reason for that was his fear of pissing off the Bangel fans. We are talking about someone who had no problem hooking up Xander with unrepentant mass murderer or taking Willow to the brink of destroying the world. For me Joss has no grounds whatsoever to claim any moral high ground, considering the lengths he went at to ensure that the Scooby Gang might as well be nicknamed the Murderers Gang. The guy spent so much effort trying to whitewash Spike in the episodes from "Family" to "Seeing Red" and show him as a reluctant hero instead of a monster that I find it rather dishonest of him to pretend he never meant to include any unfortunate implications, since you see the relationship didn't work out in the end. It's like saying Willow trying to destroy the world is totally okay since she stopped at the last second or Faith trying to strange Xander is fine because Xander survived.
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
Well, for me, I never watched Buffy during it's original run, so I really don't know what the fans' reactions were during that time. But, just watching it all recently, I didn't think anything or any character was ruined as the series progressed. That's just my opinion though.
For me, the "shocking" aspect was the fact that since falling in love with Buffy, Spike wanted to be good and didn't want to hurt her, but the AR totally threw any progress he made out the window. It was a harsh reminder that Spike still had no soul. In "Crush," he told Buffy that he could be a good man. But, of course, she didn't believe him for the simple fact that he didn't have a soul. Their banter in "Crush" --
Buffy: "Spike, please you're a vampire."
Spike: "Angel was a vampire."
Buffy: "Angel was good." -- since in her eyes, vampires with a soul were good vampires.
Spike: "And I can be too. I've changed, Buffy."
He wanted to prove to her again and again that he could be good, although he didn't have a soul. She really began to recognize that in the last scene of "Intervention." From that point on, she started to trust him. She had him come along with the Scoobies to protect Dawn and invited him back inside her house in "The Gift." Yet, the whole having no soul still got in the way when they started a relationship. Then, in "Entrophy," Spike mentions that he doesn't hurt Buffy, although he may lie, cheat, manipulate, etc. And she says she knew that. But he says: "No you don't. I've tried to make it clear to you, but you won't see it. Something happened to me. The way I feel about you. It's different..."
Then, after sleeping with Anya, he didn't think he was hurting Buffy. He thought he was doing exactly what she wanted, which was moving on. Surprisingly, she was hurt and Dawn even told him that in "Seeing Red," which prompted him to explain himself to Buffy. "I'm sorry. Not that it matters anymore, but I needed you to know that."
My point in all this is that up until the AR, Spike was really trying to be good and not hurt Buffy, despite the fact he had no soul. The AR was shocking, at least for me, because Spike, the man who loved and would die for Buffy, would never do something like that. But, he did because there was still that demon inside and he had no soul. Everything that he tried to prove to her up until that point really didn't matter because he was reminded he had no soul. It also confirmed what Buffy said about him, that he was an evil, soulless thing, not capable of love or doing any good. And that was something he always wanted to prove her wrong about.
dan k
Bangel Is Eternal
I agree about everything you said except about Spike thinking Buffy wouldn't mind him sleeping with Anya. He didn't think about Buffy when it came down to that. He didn't think "hey Buffy wants me to do this". It was just something that happened.
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
Oh, that's not what I meant, lol. I agree he definitely didn't go to Anya thinking "Buffy wants me to do this." But, when it happened, I just meant that he didn't think he was hurting Buffy since she made it clear to him that it was over and he had to move on.
VampireJason
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IMO you can't really justify Spike's actions even if he has a soul now, doesn't mean that Angel's innocent for the actions Angelus did, he's still guilty for them. But he seeks redemption, not as much as what Spike does. When I bring up the AR around my dad he thinks it was the First that made Spike do that but the First wasn't even around at that point, I think Spike did the AR on his own. But he's got a soul now, that's what we have to accept
True, I don't think the First was even in the picture yet. Spike did die to save the world, which I take as an act of redemption, and one that wasn't completely related to Buffy. Also, by Angel S5, he was starting to come around to the idea of helping the helpless on his own. And we have to accept that aside from having a soul, Spike made the choice to get his soul. I know more cynical fans will say he did it just to get Buffy back, but regardless, he took that step towards becoming a better man.
V
VampireJason
Yeah, by ATS S5 Spike was starting to get use to the idea of redemption
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StarSlayer
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But that's exactly the problem - Spike shouldn't have been able to want to be good. When he sees Angel in School Hard he calls him "uncle Tom" and proclaims loudly that demons don't change. Flash forward a few seasons and he is ready to fight to get a soul. Sorry, I am not buying that change at all. Either Spike can fight his nature choose to be (well, sort of) good or he can't. Let's say he can. In which case he is for my money much more monstrous than any other vampire because he apparently can resist his evil impulses, just doesn't care enough to do so.
It's common for fans to praise Spike's good deeds while excusing his crimes because of his lack of soul. Personally I am not convinced by this argumentation. Doing something which is technically good but only because it will bring Spike satisfaction on some more basic, non-altruistic level? No problem, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" is a justification that totally works in Becoming II. But getting a soul or staying as Dawn's babysitter after Buffy died is way too altruistic for my taste. I want my vampires evil or forced to be good by some external force, not put evilness on and take it off as if it's a coat. 🙂
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
Well, I guess that's where we have to agree to disagree. 🙂 I completely bought his transformation beginning with the chip being placed in his head and then him falling in love with Buffy and wanting to change. I personally love redeeming love stories, so that's why, for me at least, it was always interesting to watch and see if he could change. But, don't forget, he began to resist his evil impulses (at least when it came to humans) when the chip was placed in his head. If that didn't happen, I'm sure he would have stayed evil to the end. But, guess we'll never know cause of how the story developed. 🙂 Also, when Drusilla came back in "Crush," he could have easily gotten back together with her and feed from humans again. She could kill them for him, as she did when they went to the Bronze. But, he didn't. He cared enough for Buffy (in his own crazy way) not to go down that path.
Lol, fair enough. 🙂 Like I said, I didn't mind Spike wanting to be good, even if he is a vampire with no soul. Staying with Dawn after Buffy died I thought really showed how genuine and deep his feelings for Buffy were and how guilty he felt over her death. Where I draw the line is when vampires sparkle rather than burn in sunlight :biggrin3:
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Spikefan31
LOL @ the Twilight reference ;)
Chosen Enemy
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What I find amazing about the whole no-soul-rape-thingy, is that Spike actually felt guilty after the attempted rape. Because not having a soul means you cannot feel any guilt feelings. There is no conscience in people with no souls. That what makes Spike so different from other vampires with no souls, that's why it's really easy to believe that Spike has actually changed for Buffy, she made him feel feelings that aren't even supposed to be there as a souless thing, even before he got his soul back. Buffy has put in him feelings that vampires can't feel. I think it's big.
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StarSlayer
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StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
Completely agree. And I think that was his whole dilemma after the AR, when he went back to his crypt. "What have I done? Why didn't I do it? What has she done to me?" He didn't know what the heck was going with all these feelings, but he knew he felt guilty over what he did. I think he was even more confused that he stopped (after Buffy pushed him) because the old Spike probably would have kept going. "Once he starts something, he doesn't stop," as Angel said in s2 about Spike. But this time, he did stop after realizing what he had just done. He was in complete shock, almost traumatized.
But if Spike can actually feel guilt then he doesn't need a soul and committed all those murders just because he couldn't be bothered to "turn on" his consciousness. I just can't accept the idea that he was incapable of feeling guilt for more than a century then out of the blue he managed to do it. Apart from the obvious worldbuilding issues, there is a also a thematic problem. The Angelus storyline in S2 relies in big part on the assumption that love, even great love, isn't strong enough to defeat the lack of soul. I am not exactly a Bangel fan to put it mildly but it is the kind of story about hard choices and tough consequences that BtVS used to excel at.
Assuming the interpretation that Spike is indeed changed by his "love" even before he got a soul is correct all this is turned around completely. First, it's follows the beaten to death cliche of the bad man changed by the love of a good woman. Second, it's more than a bit ridiculous IMO that no vampire is ever even hinted to be close to achieving such a feat, only Spike. The "Disharmony" episode of Angel shows quite clearly what happens if you delude yourself that soulless vampires can reform. heck, the show even mocked the people who thought that vampires are "The Lonely Ones". Now, up is down and left is right and the Lonely Ones actually exist, they just need Buffy to sort of love them. So not the story I wanted to see. YMMV and all that jazz, of course.
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
Well, in s7,
he did feel guilty after staking his mother, and he was a vampire with no soul at that time. I think he felt guilty toward the people he loved when he had no soul because there was some humanity left in him after being sired. When he got a soul, he then began to experience guilt toward everyone, all the people he killed and tortured.
Also, remember. For over a century, he was with Drusilla, as well as Angelus and Darla for some time. He had no reason to feel guilty because they never felt guilty. They helped unleash the demon inside him.
And he buried his guilty feelings over staking his mother until they came back to haunt him in "Lies My Parents Told Me."
Yeah, but that's what makes Spike different and unique among vampires IMO 🙂
Stakesteak
Well, gosh!
I think some of you guys might be misinterpreting Spike's emotions towards Buffy before and after the bathroom scene as not fitting in with how soulless vamps should act. Having a soul is an incredibly important distinction in the Buffyverse and while Spike's actions are certainly unusual for a soulless vamp, they don't necessarily mean that he doesn't follow the standard rules for being soulless. What Spike felt for Buffy pre-season 7 wasn't so much love as a twisted idea of what love is tempered by his fierce sense of loyalty for those he believed he loved. He couldn't naturally feel love as a human does though, so instead he did his best to observe Buffy and to try to be the man that he believed she wanted; though the best he could manage was to be a pale reflection. While he did fight on the side of good in seasons 5 and 6, this wasn't because of any fundamental change of character so much as he believed that that's what Buffy wanted.
As for his desire to redeem himself after Seeing Red, I believe his sense of guilt and desire for atonement didn't come from being ashamed of his actions so much as the fact that he didn't even realize that what he was doing was wrong until she kicked him off. He thought he was engaging in another bout of rough sex and had no idea that his advances were totally unwanted. His desire to get a soul came from the realization that no matter how hard he tried, without one he could never be the man Buffy deserved and that he could still hurt her even though he didn't want to. So it wasn't any inherent sense of good or want to atone for his sins that drove him to get a soul, it was out of loyalty to Buffy and the desire to make her happy.
In light of this I believe that it is wrong to hold Spike accountable for his actions pre-soul as, even though he did a much better job mimicking human emotions than other vampires, he was still a soulless monster. I find a good analogy for Spike is a wolf in sheep's clothing who badly wants to actually be a sheep but no matter how hard he tries, until he got a soul he would always be a wolf 🙂 .
As for his desire to redeem himself after Seeing Red, I believe his sense of guilt and desire for atonement didn't come from being ashamed of his actions so much as the fact that he didn't even realize that what he was doing was wrong until she kicked him off. He thought he was engaging in another bout of rough sex and had no idea that his advances were totally unwanted. His desire to get a soul came from the realization that no matter how hard he tried, without one he could never be the man Buffy deserved and that he could still hurt her even though he didn't want to. So it wasn't any inherent sense of good or want to atone for his sins that drove him to get a soul, it was out of loyalty to Buffy and the desire to make her happy.
In light of this I believe that it is wrong to hold Spike accountable for his actions pre-soul as, even though he did a much better job mimicking human emotions than other vampires, he was still a soulless monster. I find a good analogy for Spike is a wolf in sheep's clothing who badly wants to actually be a sheep but no matter how hard he tries, until he got a soul he would always be a wolf 🙂 .
StarSlayer
Defender of Spuffy
I kind of disagree here. I think he did feel love and was capable of feeling love. The Judge noticed that in s2 when he felt love and affection toward Dru, which was also referred to as humanity. And as Dru said in s5, vampires could love, "quite well, if not wisely." 🙂 Sure, she was crazy but she was very truthful with her words. 🙂
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