No attempted rape?

[Harley]

yes. Spike did many noble acts without a soul and we hold him responsible for that. But again, with the AR, something different happened. This was the demon side taking over rather than his human side. I believe his human side was the one responsible for his noble acts, but the demon was responsible for his evil acts.

The same can be said for Angel when he killed Jenny. We hold the demon, Angelus, responsible for her death. But, we don't hold Angel, with a soul, responsible.

I guess I don't understand where people draw the line here? Yay to Spike for keeping Dawn and Buffy safe but it's not your fault when you hurt people?

Spike knew himself that what he did was wrong. If you re-read the script, Spike appears to try to apologize or say "I didn't mean to".

Buffy's whole life was to hold vampires responsible for hurting people. Spike isn't any different.

I actually graduated from law school recently, and I'm beginning to think it's not as clear cut as it seems. Unless it's statutory rape, intent can matter for rape. There are two types of intent under criminal law. Specific intent and general intent. Under common law, attempt is a specific intent crime. This means there needs to be a specific, desired intent to bring about a criminal result and an overt act, or some conduct in furtherance of the crime. But, there needs to be both. Depending on the jurisdiction, there are defenses to attempt. If the state adopts common law, there is no defense to attempt once the act is complete. In other states, voluntary and complete abandonment before the act is complete can be a defense for attempt.

But, under common law, rape is actually a general intent crime, meaning there doesn't need to be specific mens rea. In other words, there doesn't need to be an evil intent to commit the crime. Commission of an unlawful act will be enough.

Here though, we don't have a complete act. We have an attempt. What it means to be "substantial" though can depend on the state, the jury, etc. One can certainly argue that Spike didn't have the specific intent to rape Buffy. Even if he there was attempt, there is the defense that he abandoned the act before it was completed. He certainly was negligent and reckless with his actions, which I think would be the better argument against Spike.

I just want to mention this is from a legal perspective. I still believe Spike was definitely wrong for what he did, but again. I believe it was more so from his demon side.

I found that definition here. I have no idea how reliable the site is, but it's a "dictionary" site so I assumed it was reliable: attempt legal definition of attempt. attempt synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

---------- Post added at 08:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:04 PM ----------

Bingo. I found this from a website that describes California law.

For attempted rape:


However...



IMO, this would be the stronger argument against Spike because we're really not dealing with intent here. We're dealing with what the reasonable person would believe. So, in that sense, Spike should have realized that Buffy meant "no" and was not consenting. I think we can all agree on that.

I found that site too but I wasn't sure how reliable it was. Mad props if you like it though.

 

[StarSlayer]

It's an interesting point about the legality of the situations but does human law even apply to vampires...?

Lindsay: "There are beings, detective. Beings that aren't governed by the laws and strictures that we as humans have devised.

Oh man, I think that opens another can of worms. 🙂 I think you can argue both ways, but I think human law could apply to vampires. The problem is that they choose not to follow it.

---------- Post added at 10:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:11 AM ----------

I guess I don't understand where people draw the line here? Yay to Spike for keeping Dawn and Buffy safe but it's not your fault when you hurt people?

Spike knew himself that what he did was wrong. If you re-read the script, Spike appears to try to apologize or say "I didn't mean to".

Buffy's whole life was to hold vampires responsible for hurting people. Spike isn't any different.

But, if that's the case, then let's hold Angel responsible for the people he killed as Angelus. But, Buffy didn't when he got his soul back because she knew it was the demon was killed Jenny. So, I think the same should be applied to Spike. As Buffy says to Spike in "Never Leave Me,"

Spoiler

"Was that you who killed those girls?" He says, "There's no one else." And she says, "That's not true." He believes that he's always been him who has killed.

But, Buffy disagrees. She knows it was the monster, not the man, who committed the evil acts. "You faced the monster and you fought back. You risked everything to be a better man...and you can be." Interestingly, I read the original transcript for that scene and there was line where Buffy also says, "Was that you who tried to rape me?"

I found that definition here. I have no idea how reliable the site is, but it's a "dictionary" site so I assumed it was reliable

I'm sure for definitions it's a good source, but I was always advised in law school that it's a good starting point, but not the end point. The law can be way more complicated 🙂

I found that site too but I wasn't sure how reliable it was. Mad props if you like it though.

Hehe, thanks. It looked like a very good summary of California law that I felt people would understand. The actual language of the statutes can be too long and confusing at times. 🙂

LookingGlass agrees: True, but only if someone charges him. If no one brings charges against him, he can't just be taken to court

Well, yeah. Obviously 🙂

 

[LadyLavinia]

But does any of this even matter? Isn't rape, just rape anyway?

Rape is rape, regardless of whether the perputrator is a vampire, demon or a human. One doesn't have to be a demon in order to be a monster. Look at some of the human characters . . . including Buffy.

Yes, Spike tried to rape Buffy in AR. And it was wrong. Just as it was wrong for Xander to try to rape Buffy in S1, just as it was wrong for Faith to try to rape Xander in S3, just as it was wrong for Willow to use psychic rape against Tara via magic in S6, and just as it was wrong for an invisible Buffy to try to rape Spike in "Gone".

My opinion? The moral compass between humans, vampires and demons are not that different; regardless of what many humans believe.

My only problem with "Seeing Red" is that while Spike's attempt to rape Buffy was treated as a serious matter; Buffy's attempt to rape Spike in "Gone" was treated as comedy. And I found that hypocritical and a little sick.

 

[StarSlayer]

My only problem with "Seeing Red" is that while Spike's attempt to rape Buffy was treated as a serious matter; Buffy's attempt to rape Spike in "Gone" was treated as comedy. And I found that hypocritical and a little sick.

I've read this argument before, and I'm sorry. I can't compare the two incidents. Buffy definitely emotionally abused Spike, but physically attempted to rape him in "Gone?" I just don't see it that way. Even if it was presented as comedic, Spike did not try and stop Buffy, as Buffy tried to stop Spike in "Seeing Red."

 

[Tome]

LookingGlass disagrees: Both consenting? At what part do you believe Buffy consents?

I was talking about the whole 'statutory rape' situation with Buffy and Angel. Not the AR.

 

[dan k]

There's no way you can compare what Buffy did in "Gone" to what Spike did in "Seeing Red". Spike wasn't fighting Buffy off visibly in distress like she was in "Seeing Red", infact he succumbed in a very short moment of time. If what Buffy did in gone is seen as rape then most people have committed rape in their life. She was just been flirty and trying to force the issue but unlike Spike she didn't hurt him and didn't use excess force.

 

[Harley]

But, if that's the case, then let's hold Angel responsible for the people he killed as Angelus. But, Buffy didn't when he got his soul back because she knew it was the demon was killed Jenny. So, I think the same should be applied to Spike.

But as Angelus, he never tried to save anyone, never told Buffy he loved her, etc. Angelus allowed his demon to become him, through and through. There was always a distinct difference between Angel and Angelus.

Spike, based on past experiences, chose when he was good and when he was bad. Even after, he was very similar to what he was before.

 

[StarSlayer]

But as Angelus, he never tried to save anyone, never told Buffy he loved her, etc. Angelus allowed his demon to become him, through and through. There was always a distinct difference between Angel and Angelus.

Spike, based on past experiences, chose when he was good and when he was bad. Even after, he was very similar to what he was before.

I totally agree with you about Angelus. He allowed his demon to become him. He never listened to his human side, nor cared about it. He didn't want to love. He felt it was weak because humans love. Once he got his soul, I think his human side resurfaced and he became Angel, if you will.

Spike was a different story. Yes, he chose to be good when he fell in love with Buffy, but he could never fully be good because he didn't have a soul. The demon still controlled him. And this was his whole dilemma. He knew it was wrong loving Buffy, but some part of him wanted to be a better man for her. And I believe that part was his human side. It fought the demon (the monster) inside. He got his soul to regain control, or free will, since Buffy said Spike didn't have free will when he didn't have a soul.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Exactly. When Spike was sired, it was never explained why, but a small bit of his humanity remained inside of him. He was different. As a vampire, he had the ability to love, to show affection, to demontrate loyalty and could be trusted to a degree. Yet, despite this, he was still without a soul, and so therefore had no conscience or ability to empthasize. This is why is actions often seem inconsistent. Hanging with Buffy and the Scoobies "fed" his humanity, so as a result he "learned" how to act more human, but he still did not understand basic morals. This is clearly demontrated in Dead Things when Spike is completely clueless why Buffy would want to turn herself in for commiting a "crime." By imitating human behavior, he could pass as normal, but he was still a demon. That little but of humanity in him - which made it possible to love Buffy - was what made it possible for him to want to get a soul to be "whole" again, or "restored."

Angelus never had even the slightest bit of humanity in him. He was a monster. Whether it didn't exist or he repressed it is debatable, but Angelus would have never actively went out and got a soul on his own. He simply wouldn't have ever thought of it.

 

[Flannen]

Exactly. When Spike was sired, it was never explained why, but a small bit of his humanity remained inside of him. He was different. As a vampire, he had the ability to love, to show affection, to demontrate loyalty and could be trusted to a degree. Yet, despite this, he was still without a soul, and so therefore had no conscience or ability to empthasize. This is why is actions often seem inconsistent. Hanging with Buffy and the Scoobies "fed" his humanity, so as a result he "learned" how to act more human, but he still did not understand basic morals. This is clearly demontrated in Dead Things when Spike is completely clueless why Buffy would want to turn herself in for commiting a "crime."

I can't remember if it's this thread or another one but someone (please forgive me for not remembering who, there's a lot of posts around here lol) said that the moral compass between humans and vampires may not actually be that different. And in the instance of Dead Things, I think that's quite true and thus I don't see it a particularly good example of Spike not understanding humanity completely. There are plenty of humans, with souls, who would also wonder why on earth Buffy would turn herself in for a crime she wouldn't necessarily ever be tied to. If anything it could be a way of Spike imitating what it is to be a human, as opposed to behaving the opposite of one.

Personally, I fall down on the same side as LookingGlass and I've argued it before myself. When Spike did "good" things willingly and knowingly, I don't see that he can just switch that on and off when he wants to, soul or no soul.

 

[StarSlayer]

I can't remember if it's this thread or another one but someone (please forgive me for not remembering who, there's a lot of posts around here lol) said that the moral compass between humans and vampires may not actually be that different. And in the instance of Dead Things, I think that's quite true and thus I don't see it a particularly good example of Spike not understanding humanity completely. There are plenty of humans, with souls, who would also wonder why on earth Buffy would turn herself in for a crime she wouldn't necessarily ever be tied to. If anything it could be a way of Spike imitating what it is to be a human, as opposed to behaving the opposite of one.

Personally, I fall down on the same side as LookingGlass and I've argued it before myself. When Spike did "good" things willingly and knowingly, I don't see that he can just switch that on and off when he wants to, soul or no soul.

It's funny because I was watching Becoming Part 1 the other day, and it seems like we're all saying similar things to what Buffy and Xander were debating. Whether she should kill Angel, even though it was Angelus at that time. Xander didn't care whether he was Angelus, Angel, soul, or no soul. Bottom-line for him was that he was a vampire who did evil things and he needed to be killed. But, for Buffy, it wasn't that simple. When Angel didn't have a soul, she saw him as evil. But, when he did have a soul, she was willing to forgive him easier.

I know that was with Angel, but I think it's sort of similar to Spike. For me, it's really not like switching his good side on and off, when he had no soul. It's more like that struggle with his demon. He wanted to be good, but the demon and his lack of soul prevented him from fully achieving it. I don't know if I agree that the moral compass between humans and vampires is similar because what Buffy was feeling in "Dead Things" was guilt for what she did. Guilt for killing an innocent person. Spike never felt guilt with his crimes (until he got his soul), unless it was over someone he really cared about, like his mother and Buffy.

---------- Post added at 04:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:48 PM ----------

I tried to edit again, but I reached my limit. I meant to say, "I know that was with Angel, but it's sort of similar to how we're debating Spike."

 

[Connor Holtz]

What it all boils down to is do you perceive the soul how Joss has portrayed it. He tries to make it clear that NO vampire can become completely good without a soul. It's their conscience. Sure they can make the occasional good choice if it's made for selfish reasons. (All of Spike's good deeds were ultimately done for his love of Buffy).

The only thing I can say is be consistent. Spike with soul and Spike without soul are different entities just like Angel and Angelus regardless of the fact Spike chooses not to have funny nick names to differentiate the two or chooses not to get a new personalty. If you hold an ensouled Spike for crimes without soul then you HAVE TO hold Angel accountable for his crimes as Angelus.

 

[VampireJason]

I understand what you're saying Connor Holtz. And I do hold Angel and Spike responsible for ALL of their actions. The difference is, even without a soul Angel didn't attempt to rape Buffy. Sure he killed Jenny, LIAM/ANGEL/ANGELUS or whatever you wanna call him KILLED Jenny. He also killed several other innocent lives, including his own family. But I regard all of that as the same person. The thing is Angel killed Jenny to torment Giles, he targeted him, which, also tormented Buffy in the process, a chain reaction if you will. Angel also tortured Giles. GILES. Angel didn't specifically go after Buffy, attempt or actual rape her, or physically torture her. There's really no way to explain this, I'm a Bangel going up against the Spuffies. No satisfying answer.

I know I sound like I'm lying, my favorite character being Angel even though I just bashed him. But I liked Angel ever since his first appearance, same with Spike. Just because they were maniacal-mass-murdering-fiends doesn't mean I like them any different, no matter how hard I try I can't hate them. Yes Angel murdered Jenny, yes Spike attempted to force himself on Buffy, Angel doesn't try to say it was Angelus, Angel fights for redemption, he'll always try to make up for the crimes he did as Angelus and Spike is trying to make up for the crimes he committed when he didn't have a soul. They don't try to excuse themselves for their actions. They fought the good fight until the end and that's why I like them. Angel and Spike are not perfect, Joss doesn't like "perfect heroes"

 

[Harley]

Teeheehe, now I think we're all saying the same things.

 

[Kana]

I understand what you're saying Connor Holtz. And I do hold Angel and Spike responsible for ALL of their actions.

I actually find the nature of blame and responsibility quite difficult when it comes to vampires. At the very least I think judging soulless vampires in the same way you would a human becomes quite the task.

Although vampires' approach to their deeds varies depending on their individual personality, their behaviour is still predictable enough that they would kill human beings without remorse. Spike was an utterly non violent human but as a vampire, his deeds, apparently almost rivaled Angelus. He killed not just out of necessity but out of pleasure and for sport.

Now this isn't me disparaging him, I'm saying that it's more or less proof that vampires, although retaining many of their personal quirks, often take on the predetory nature of their species.

I'd be confident if you took a reasonably moral human, turned them into a vampire and left them for a hundred years and then re ensoulled them, they'd feel guilty for their actions but if the soul is essentially a conscience (and it's difficult to define the conscience I'm aware) how can we judge or blame vampires for not following a conscience they do not have?

The difference is, even without a soul Angel didn't attempt to rape Buffy.

I'm not sure what the argument is here. We know that Angelus has raped and threatened to rape others. The fact that he didn't attempt to rape Buffy wouldn't appear to be a question of morality, so what's the argument?

Sure he killed Jenny, LIAM/ANGEL/ANGELUS or whatever you wanna call him KILLED Jenny. He also killed several other innocent lives, including his own family. But I regard all of that as the same person. The thing is Angel killed Jenny to torment Giles, he targeted him, which, also tormented Buffy in the process, a chain reaction if you will. Angel also tortured Giles. GILES. Angel didn't specifically go after Buffy, attempt or actual rape her, or physically torture her.

That's part of Angelus MO. He killed all of Dru's family etc, then in end targeted her. Don't forget Buffy is physically stronger so a direct physical attack would be pointless. He couldn't hurt Buffy physically as much as he could emotionally. I honestly think if he had his way, he would have killed everyone close to Buffy starting from the outside (someone like Jenny) then working his way in. Ok this is speculation but consistent with his MO and what he threatened as well. Angelus also didn't physically harm Holtz, doesn't mean he wasn't a bastard to him though.

There's really no way to explain this, I'm a Bangel going up against the Spuffies. No satisfying answer.

Shipping and favourite characters, I admit, can colour our judgement. In short we can be more forgiving about the deeds of the characters we like then those we don't.

I know I sound like I'm lying, my favorite character being Angel even though I just bashed him. But I liked Angel ever since his first appearance, same with Spike. Just because they were maniacal-mass-murdering-fiends doesn't mean I like them any different, no matter how hard I try I can't hate them.

Well from a narrative perspective it's different. I happened to think Angelus is an evil genius and find his mind fascinating, but I wouldn't hang out with him in real life.

Yes Angel murdered Jenny, yes Spike attempted to force himself on Buffy, Angel doesn't try to say it was Angelus, Angel fights for redemption, he'll always try to make up for the crimes he did as Angelus and Spike is trying to make up for the crimes he committed when he didn't have a soul. They don't try to excuse themselves for their actions.

To be honest, I think this is noble but I honestly don't think they need to make up for those crimes and to be honest they can't. I think they should focus on trying to be better people and the positive actions to which they continue to commit.

They fought the good fight until the end and that's why I like them. Angel and Spike are not perfect, Joss doesn't like "perfect heroes"

That's what I admire about them. 🙂.

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

I can't remember if it's this thread or another one but someone (please forgive me for not remembering who, there's a lot of posts around here lol) said that the moral compass between humans and vampires may not actually be that different. And in the instance of Dead Things, I think that's quite true and thus I don't see it a particularly good example of Spike not understanding humanity completely. There are plenty of humans, with souls, who would also wonder why on earth Buffy would turn herself in for a crime she wouldn't necessarily ever be tied to. If anything it could be a way of Spike imitating what it is to be a human, as opposed to behaving the opposite of one.

Good point about Spike imitating, but I disagree that he was doing it in that scene. He comes across as honest to me for some reason. I think his confusion at Buffy's dispair at having potentially killed Katrina is authentic.
There are many examples of him imitating "appropriate" human behavior in the show, but I don't think that is one of them.

I think there is a HUGE difference between vampires and humans in this 'verse; vampires don't have moral compasses, humans do. That's how it was set up, and Spike confused everyone because he "broke" that rule. He had human charactertistics and was intelligent - a far cry from the other vampires on the show (excluding Angelus, of course).

Personally, I fall down on the same side as LookingGlass and I've argued it before myself. When Spike did "good" things willingly and knowingly, I don't see that he can just switch that on and off when he wants to, soul or no soul.

Persoally, I belive Spike did commit "good" deeds for both selfish and selfless reasons - before he had a soul. It's the inconsistant nature of his character that I find so fascinating. He's unpredictable.

 

[Have Faith]

I'm sad to say it, but I absolutely believe that it was (attempted) rape. Even though he was desperate for her to feel something towards him back, he tried to physically hurt her, and did so. He may not have truly mean to, but he definately was attempting to have sex with her. This scene was very emotional for me, and I believe a lot of people, it was hard to watch Spike's sadness, lonliness, and desperation for love finally show for the first time. He had showed that he was upset and angry before, but never in a way that would actually allow him to hurt Buffy.. I think his feelings were so overwhelming that he didn't realize what he was doing. But nonetheless, it was (like I said before, attempted) rape. Very sadly.

 

[BananaBuffy]

I can see how that conclusion can be drawn yes. Because it wasn't his mindset to 'rape' her. He just was desperate for her to show the affection for him again because he really craves it now that he's had it. Afterwards he's pretty damn ashamed of himself.

 

[Justme]

Yowsers.

There is some scary stuff in this thread.

It's helped me make up my mind about what I think of Joss Whedon though.

 

[saturn5]

Why do people have such a hard time with this? I almost think it's because people are more attracted to unsouled Spike than to souled Spike and want to make excuses for him?