No attempted rape?

[Misty]

I'm not going to discuss this because last time my thread was a misunderstanding and it got closed. But all I'm saying is that it was very bad of Spike and that his sexual relationship with Buffy is one of the things that caused this because he wanted more sex from her. I'm NOT saying that Buffy is responsible because she isn't. And I'm NOT saying that it wasn't bad of Spike either. But he didn't have a soul and he was still evil. But that's my opinion on this matter.

 

[Chosen Enemy]

I actually overlook the fact that he had no soul while doing it, because Spike even without a soul loved Buffy. And that's the thing. The souless Spike loved Buffy, so the souless Spike shouldn't have done that and would never have done that on a regular day. It's just not him, doesn't matter soul or no soul. He didn't drop by to have sex with Buffy, and obviously didn't come there to rape her either. He came to appologzie, to show Buffy that he still loves her and cares for her. He didn't have any cruel intentions (I don't mean SMG's film!), he never wanted bad things for Buffy. It's not a defense of Spike here by saying he had no soul, I just defend the fact that it wasn't him there. The real Spike, the regular Spike would never hurt Buffy. It was mostly an accident. Like with a car accident-it's bad, it hurts people, but it's not on purpose. I don't see a reason to blame anyone on the AR, simply because it wasn't intentional, it wasn't what he wanted. And like a car accident, sometimes things (car) loses control. It's sort of the driver's fault, but not really. It's not like the driver left his house, started the car, and decided he will pound on the car infront of him.

Now, if that was Spike's intentions, to come there and MAKE BUFFY have sex with him no matter what and then rape her when seeing her crying her eyes out and thinking to himself something like "yeah! You deserve it, bitch!"... then I couldn't stand seeing Spike's face anymore. But clearly it wasn't the case.
I'm not saying anything that justifies what happened to Buffy by Spike. And again, I don't defend him for doing that. I simply say that there was no intention there in hurting Buffy, that wasn't his goal, and he wouldn't wanna do that if would've noticed how much it hurts Buffy. Spike loves Buffy to death. He wouldn't have done anything that would hurt her, so that proves that it's not s simple case of girl raping. Spike's not a rapist (in his heart I mean, it's just not him!). That's why he freaked once realizing what he's done.

 

[The Unspoken]

I think people are way to quick to dismiss the possibility that Spike - albeit momentarily - actually wanted to rape her. The scene itself makes it look more like Spike misinterpreted Buffy's intentions and/or didn't realize it felt like rape to her. However, when Spike is talking to Clem after that, he says the chip won't let him be a monster, but he can't be a man either. Wanting to rape Buffy is certainly in line with the monster Spike used to be pre-chip.

(Disclaimer: obviously it's attempted rape regardless of Spike's intentions.)

 

[StarSlayer]

For me, I can't ignore the fact that Spike had no soul. That was critical not only to the scene, but to the entire Spuffy relationship in s6. And I truly believe Spike never wanted to rape Buffy. He said time and again that since falling in love with her, he did not want to hurt her, even though he was a vampire and she was the slayer. He thought he could be a better man regardless of having a soul, but the harsh truth (as shown through the bathroom scene) was that he couldn't. The chip not letting him be a monster I think also referred back to "Smashed," when Spike found out he could hit Buffy (and even bite her if he wanted), but he still couldn't harm other humans. As Buffy said, he couldn't be a human (no soul) and he couldn't be a vampire (he couldn't bite people and drink their blood). After the bathroom scene, I think Spike was going over all these thoughts and realizing Buffy had a point.

 

[Justme]

Spike loves Buffy to death. He wouldn't have done anything that would hurt her, so that proves that it's not s simple case of girl raping. Spike's not a rapist (in his heart I mean, it's just not him!). That's why he freaked once realizing what he's done.

Actually that makes it fairly typical of rape. You think that abusers don't claim to love their victims in most cases?

 

[zobothehobo]

I don't know if I've posted this before, I'm kinda too lazy to check... but I don't see it as attempted rape because I don't think Spike went in there with the intention to force her to have sex with him. He went in there with the intention to force her to love him. Two completely different things. He just didn't know how to make her love him or show his love because he was soulless. Violence was all he knew.

 

[The Unspoken]

I don't know if I've posted this before, I'm kinda too lazy to check... but I don't see it as attempted rape because I don't think Spike went in there with the intention to force her to have sex with him. He went in there with the intention to force her to love him. Two completely different things. He just didn't know how to make her love him or show his love because he was soulless. Violence was all he knew.

Whether or not something is (attempted) rape, depends only on the experience of the victim. Buffy was almost forced to have sex against her will, and that's why it's an attempted rape. From a legal point of view, rape is simply sex without consent.
But obviously whether or not Spike actually had the intent to rape her is a very important question, the answer to which we should keep discussing!

 

[zobothehobo]

Whether or not something is (attempted) rape, depends only on the experience of the victim. Buffy was almost forced to have sex against her will, and that's why it's an attempted rape.
Obviously whether or not Spike actually had the intent to rape her is a very important question, but it doesn't change the fact that he almost raped Buffy, whether he intended to or not.

Attempt: earnest and conscientious activity intended to do or accomplish something;

It's not attempted if there was no intent. You can't attempt to do something without conscious intent by definition.

 

[Flannen]

Attempt: earnest and conscientious activity intended to do or accomplish something;

It's not attempted if there was no intent. You can't attempt to do something without conscious intent by definition.

That definition does not prove that it wasn't attempted rape. With regard to this example, it doesn't excuse Spike because he didn't go there with the intention to rape. I agree that he didn't sit up and decide that was what he was going to do. However, when he actually got there and had her pinned to the floor, his intention was to have sex with her whether she wanted to or not. So in that sense, that definition perfectly describes why it should be considered an attempted rape.

 

[The Unspoken]

It's not attempted if there was no intent. You can't attempt to do something without conscious intent by definition.

Ok, first of all, I edited my post after you quoted it, lol.
Anyway, the legal definition of rape typically only requires the lack of consent of the victim. Buffy didn't want to have sex, and regardless of Spike's intentions (or lack thereof), it still felt like a(n almost) violation to her. Yes, obviously it's not Spike's fault, it's his lack of a soul, but that's besides the point. There are a number of ways (attempted) rape can happen, and this scene is one of them.

 

[zobothehobo]

That definition does not prove that it wasn't attempted rape. With regard to this example, it doesn't excuse Spike because he didn't go there with the intention to rape. I agree that he didn't sit up and decide that was what he was going to do. However, when he actually got there and had her pinned to the floor, his intention was to have sex with her whether she wanted to or not. So in that sense, that definition perfectly describes why it should be considered an attempted rape.

See I don't think that's true. I don't think his intentions were to have sex with her whether she wanted it or not. The whole point was that she want it. I think he went in there trying to get to the point in their messed up relations where she gave in and wanted it. Previously all season she'd said no, they'd fought, then she'd given in and they'd had sex... bur more than that, she wanted it. I think he was trying to get her to skip to that part... the part after she said no, they fought... to the part she wanted it. I don't think if it got to the part where it was "continue to sexual relations and make this full out rape or stop" he would have continued because that's not the point. The point was for her to want it. I think it would have hit him then much like it hit him when she kicked him across the room that she wasn't going to want it that night no matter what he did. She didn't, wouldn't, and COULDN'T want him.
"Why didn't I do it?" His question to Clem backs me up... why didn't he do what? Fight back, try harder, have his way with her... because that wasn't the point of the night.

 

[Flannen]

I do see what you're saying but I just don't agree. That scene says a whole of other things to me that it just doesn't say to you and some others. I can see the argument about their past relations but it just doesn't cut it in my book. It wouldn't stand in real life, so it doesn't stand here for me either, regardless of it being a fantasy show, soul or no soul. I've said more than enough on this topic before and argued it to the death and I don't want to repeat myself again and I won't be swayed lol. I only chipped in here because I didn't think that the definition you gave exonerated Spike because I felt his intentions changed at that point.

I'm not so bothered about all the discussion about WHY it happened or his intentions/motives/misreading of signals etc, but by the book (and in my book) in black and white it was attempted rape; all the reasons for which are more than likely in either of the two most recent threads about this 🙂

 

[Justme]

I do see what you're saying but I just don't agree. That scene says a whole of other things to me that it just doesn't say to you and some others. I can see the argument about their past relations but it just doesn't cut it in my book. It wouldn't stand in real life, so it doesn't stand here for me either, regardless of it being a fantasy show, soul or no soul. I've said more than enough on this topic before and argued it to the death and I don't want to repeat myself again and I won't be swayed lol. I only chipped in here because I didn't think that the definition you gave exonerated Spike because I felt his intentions changed at that point.

I'm not so bothered about all the discussion about WHY it happened or his intentions/motives/misreading of signals etc, but by the book (and in my book) in black and white it was attempted rape; all the reasons for which are more than likely in either of the two most recent threads about this 🙂

Yup I agree with you (and Kean apparently!).

What scares me is if you switch the "he" with the "I" the arguments against it being attempted rape seem to come straight from The Bumper Book of Abusive Partners Excuses. "I only did it because I love her" "I thought she wanted it" "I love her so much I would never hurt her on purpose". Sure there is the whole super hero/vampire dynamic that muddies the waters but honestly the scene is really pretty straight forward.

Like I said before it really puts me in the "Joss Whedon is a *****" column that they put this scene in this context in the show.

 

[saturn5]

Yup I agree with you (and Kean apparently!).

What scares me is if you switch the "he" with the "I" the arguments against it being attempted rape seem to come straight from The Bumper Book of Abusive Partners Excuses. "I only did it because I love her" "I thought she wanted it" "I love her so much I would never hurt her on purpose". Sure there is the whole super hero/vampire dynamic that muddies the waters but honestly the scene is really pretty straight forward.

Like I said before it really puts me in the "Joss Whedon is a *****" column that they put this scene in this context in the show.

Yeah it's scary how many people attempt to excuse Spike his actions😕

 

[zobothehobo]

Yup I agree with you (and Kean apparently!).

What scares me is if you switch the "he" with the "I" the arguments against it being attempted rape seem to come straight from The Bumper Book of Abusive Partners Excuses. "I only did it because I love her" "I thought she wanted it" "I love her so much I would never hurt her on purpose". Sure there is the whole super hero/vampire dynamic that muddies the waters but honestly the scene is really pretty straight forward.

Like I said before it really puts me in the "Joss Whedon is a *****" column that they put this scene in this context in the show.

Those are not the reasons I used. He didn't think she wanted it, he was trying to make her want it. Those are two different things.

 

[Justme]

Those are not the reasons I used. He didn't think she wanted it, he was trying to make her want it. Those are two different things.

I was generalising but isn't that kind of worse?

 

[Icarium]

Why do people have such a hard time with this? I almost think it's because people are more attracted to unsouled Spike than to souled Spike and want to make excuses for him?

Almost? 🙂

Yeah it's scary how many people attempt to excuse Spike his actions

While I do think these people are completely missing the point big time , I can't really blame them too much considering the show itself had Buffy look disappointed in Villains when she learned Spike had left Sunnydale. It's the show that tried again and again to make Spike look sympathetic, Buffy's confidant, etc. It's the show that was positively bipolar in its presentation of Spuffy, with one episode presenting as a great love story, another as the most unhealthy relationship in the history of the world. It's the show that had just presented Anya trying to kill Xander as comedy and had shown Willow as an abuser, so no wonder people sometimes said "well, Spike isn't really much worse than those characters".

 

[StarSlayer]

From a legal point of view, rape is simply sex without consent.

However, statutory rape is another story. Both can consent but the perpetrator can still be found guilty because of their ages.

I explained the legal side to Spike's attempted rape already in this thread so I'm not going to go more into it again in this post. But basically, California law states for attempted rape that even if the accused (i.e. Spike) unreasonably believes the victim is consenting, the accused does not have the intent necessary for the crime. Therefore, Spike most likely would not be guilty. However, even if Spike had no intent (which I believe is true), he still could be guilty of rape because his actions were negligent and reckless. Yet, it wasn't a complete act so there's still a defense to this argument. Interpret how you will since both sides have good arguments. 🙂 For me, as I said, I believe Spike had no intention of wanting to rape Buffy. However, he should have realized that when Buffy said "No" and screamed at this particular time (forget about the other times), she really meant "NO" as in "Stop it right now," not "keep going." The way she said it was with force, not a quiet "Stop it," as in "Gone."

 

[zobothehobo]

I was generalising but isn't that kind of worse?

No. Everyone wants the person they love to love/want them. I mean, don't you? That's the whole point of "wooing." Everyone does things to try to make the person they like like them/want them back. Spike was just going to the last thing he knew to do... be violent.

 

[Justme]

No. Everyone wants the person they love to love/want them. I mean, don't you? That's the whole point of "wooing." Everyone does things to try to make the person they like like them/want them back. Spike was just going to the last thing he knew to do... be violent.

Which is still terrible. Yes some people do things to get somebody they loved back. Some of these people do violent things. They are inexcusable and wrong.