No attempted rape?

[zobothehobo]

Which is still terrible. Yes some people do things to get somebody they loved back. Some of these people do violent things. They are inexcusable and wrong.

But Spike wasn't just some douchebag who tried to use violence for that. He was soulless.

 

[buffyprops]

I'm one of those Buffy Enthusiast's who doesn't care to try to re-interpret the scene I was given because I think it sheds a bad light on a character I like.
I happen to like BOTH characters involved here but I also feel the need to "own up" to the fact that in this scene, one character was clearly right and one was clearly wrong.

Now a point to remember on a writing aspect...
How many times was the word "Rape" used in and around this episode? At least three times to my recollection.
In story telling/writing and theatre we learn early on that when an author say's something more than once it's probably important, but if something is said three times or more, You better sit up and pay attention.

Now some on what I've read about this episode and scene inparticuler...
I've read that this scene was written by Marni Noxon and was a serious bone of contention between her and SMG.
M.N. insisted on the scene when SMG objected and because of that and the fact that Marni pretty much forced SMG into doing an additional two seasons of Buffy when SMG was working on the understanding that season five was the end, these are reasons why SMG has absolutely REFUSED to even consider portraying Buffy again.

My two cents...🙄

 

[Spikefan31]

I've read that this scene was written by Marni Noxon and was a serious bone of contention between her and SMG. M.N. insisted on the scene when SMG objected and because of that and the fact that Marni pretty much forced SMG into doing an additional two seasons of Buffy when SMG was working on the understanding that season five was the end, these are reasons why SMG has absolutely REFUSED to even consider portraying Buffy again.

I've heard James Marsters didn't want to do the scene either.

I'm a Spuffy, but I don't really understand how people can think it wasn't attempted rape. In my opinion, it was, whether or not Spike wanted or was aware of it. Even though he might not have thought it was (attempted) rape, he still tried to have sex with Buffy without her consent. She said 'no'. End of story. And if, afterwards, he himself didn't realise that he what he had done was try to rape Buffy, why did he feel so bad that his only option was to go to Africa to get a soul? Spike may have been soulless, but he's not an idiot.

Now someone's going to come and contradict me. 🙁

Btw, I'm not saying I hate Spike, because I don't (he's my favourite character), or that he should be held to human standards and expectations, because as a soulless vampire, he shouldn't be, but basically I'm just saying that I believe it was attempted rape.

 

[InsaneMystic]

Whether or not something is (attempted) rape, depends only on the experience of the victim.

I didn't want to post in this thread anymore, but I just HAVE to disagree to that.

That sentence is true if you leave out the part in brackets. The way it stands, it's complete nonsense.

Whether or not something is attempted rape depends almost absolutely on the intent of the alleged rapist; the experience of the victim is not completely irrelevant, but very, very secondary.

*gets out of the thread even though my fingers are itching to type more... bad fingers!*

 

[prophecygrrl]

Why do people have such a hard time with this? I almost think it's because people are more attracted to unsouled Spike than to souled Spike and want to make excuses for him?

Absolutely not, on all counts.

I don't think anyone would "excuse" a character for attempted rape just because they like them as characters. Maybe a few of the fringe fans, but they're hardly reflective of the fandom as a whole. I admit that I'm a Spuffy shipper and a Spike fan, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults or that I forgive and forget all of his sins. I'm sorry if I sound harsh in this post, but I find that accusation very offensive.

People have a hard time with this scene because it's a DIFFICULT scene. I personally think it was a huge error on the writer's part, but that's another story. As it happened in canon, it's the culmination of an incredibly complex and abusive relationship, and the circumstances surrounding the AR and the characters involved are very emotional and ARE ambiguous. While I do believe it's attempted rape, even the people who don't view it as rape in the traditional sense (ugh, and isn't it horrible that there's a "traditional sense"...) are not necessarily "making excuses". I don't see any rational person proclaiming that it's "okay" for Spike to have attacked Buffy.

 

[zobothehobo]

Absolutely not, on all counts.

I don't think anyone would "excuse" a character for attempted rape just because they like them as characters. Maybe a few of the fringe fans, but they're hardly reflective of the fandom as a whole. I admit that I'm a Spuffy shipper and a Spike fan, but that doesn't mean I'm blind to his faults or that I forgive and forget all of his sins. I'm sorry if I sound harsh in this post, but I find that accusation very offensive.

People have a hard time with this scene because it's a DIFFICULT scene. I personally think it was a huge error on the writer's part, but that's another story. As it happened in canon, it's the culmination of an incredibly complex and abusive relationship, and the circumstances surrounding the AR and the characters involved are very emotional and ARE ambiguous. While I do believe it's attempted rape, even the people who don't view it as rape in the traditional sense (ugh, and isn't it horrible that there's a "traditional sense"...) are not necessarily "making excuses". I don't see any rational person proclaiming that it's "okay" for Spike to have attacked Buffy.

I totally agree. I don't think it was attempted rape... but I do think it was wrong. I'm not making excuses for Spike. I mean, it wasn't OK for him to have attacked Buffy that way. There was no need for violence... if they had just talked, like he said he was going to when he entered the room, I think it would have been fine... and that's what he SHOULD'VE done. Whether or not it was attempted rape doesn't change that fact.

 

[prophecygrrl]

I'm one of those Buffy Enthusiast's who doesn't care to try to re-interpret the scene I was given because I think it sheds a bad light on a character I like.
I happen to like BOTH characters involved here but I also feel the need to "own up" to the fact that in this scene, one character was clearly right and one was clearly wrong.

Now a point to remember on a writing aspect...
How many times was the word "Rape" used in and around this episode? At least three times to my recollection.
In story telling/writing and theatre we learn early on that when an author say's something more than once it's probably important, but if something is said three times or more, You better sit up and pay attention.

Now some on what I've read about this episode and scene inparticuler...
I've read that this scene was written by Marni Noxon and was a serious bone of contention between her and SMG.
M.N. insisted on the scene when SMG objected and because of that and the fact that Marni pretty much forced SMG into doing an additional two seasons of Buffy when SMG was working on the understanding that season five was the end, these are reasons why SMG has absolutely REFUSED to even consider portraying Buffy again.

My two cents...🙄

Just wanted to add that James Marsters basically said at several cons that the AR was actually based on Marti Noxon's experience. He didn't name her of course, but he did say this:

It was out of one of the writer's lives. She lived that. It was a woman on a man - she thought that if they were intimate again, they'd realize that they really loved each other. When you flip sexes, it's a lot different.

Also, both James and Sarah were against the scene. James has even said that filming it was one of the worst days of his life. What a horrible situation for both of them. Ugh...I hate this scene so much on so many levels. >.<

 

[DarlingVioletta]

Just wanted to add that James Marsters basically said at several cons that the AR was actually based on Marti Noxon's experience. He didn't name her of course, but he did say this:


Also, both James and Sarah were against the scene. James has even said that filming it was one of the worst days of his life. What a horrible situation for both of them. Ugh...I hate this scene so much on so many levels. >.<

I never particularly liked the scene all that much but after hearing how much the actors didn't want to be a part of it it really puts it into an entirely different light for me.

 

[zobothehobo]

Just wanted to add that James Marsters basically said at several cons that the AR was actually based on Marti Noxon's experience. He didn't name her of course, but he did say this:

I'd rep you again, but I can't. Thank you for finding that quote... I was looking for it. You found it first

 

[Spikefan31]

It was out of one of the writer’s lives. She lived that. It was a woman on a man - she thought that if they were intimate again, they’d realize that they really loved each other. When you flip sexes, it’s a lot different.

So Marti Noxon tried to force herself on someone? Am I reading that right?

 

[charmedones193]

I can see it both ways. I think most of his conscious mind thought it'd be like half the other times they had sex, where she started out saying no, stop, then ended up wanting to do it anyway. Like she wanted it physically but not mentally, and if he persisted the physical side would over ride the mental side (as has been known to happen to many people, ahem). But he did cross a line, went well beyond persistence in that scene. However, I think he'd have snapped out of it if she'd kept fighting, even if she hadn't thrown him across the room.

I Agree... Like thevikingsgirl Said He Thought It Was Like The Other Times, He Was Confused and At The End He realized What He Had Done. But I Think IMO He Didn't Think Of It As Rape.

 

[Flannen]

We've blown through another thread discussing this topic so I'm closing this one. Continue to discuss if you wish 🙂