No invitation.

[Superstar]

You can PM me them if you like, so as not to side track this thread too much but yes there is much foreshadowing in the Verse, some of which I've noticed, some of which I may not have noticed, but I don't believe this is necessarily one of those instances.

We'll just agree to disagree.

If I was to do such a thing (foreshadow list) it would be posted here for everyone to enjoy.
I may even take up that daunting task sometime. Not sure.
Perhaps on my next marathon viewing.

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I am curious though why you think TPTB are on the side of "good".
The only ones who claim that are not in any position to truly know.
Jasmine (an ex-PTB) flat-out said they are ambivalent.

Jasmine: Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart.
Jasmine: No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.

The First took responsibility with a "we brought you back" in BTVS "Amends". Truth or not (The First does love its truth), the "we" is very interesting.
Note that this was done when the Angel spin-off was being developed and an over-arching series foil was being created.

 

[Kana]

We'll just agree to disagree.

I don't agree to that lol, jk.

If I was to do such a thing (foreshadow list) it would be posted here for everyone to enjoy.
I may even take up that daunting task sometime. Not sure.
Perhaps on my next marathon viewing.

Oh take your time. I agree they are extremely multi-layered shows, full of meaning and open to different interpretations.

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I am curious though why you think TPTB are on the side of "good".

Well I tend to agree that they are ambiguous, morally and otherwise. What they may think is good, may be morally offensive to you and me.

The only ones who claim that are not in any position to truly know.
Jasmine (an ex-PTB) flat-out said they are ambivalent.

Well of course Jasmine disagreed with the PTBs I suppose and certainly she attempted to play on Angel's fear that they is no higher purpose, not forgetting that she wouldn't necessarily be unbiased. She did say they didn't care but she also said that in general the PTBs were a force for good.

I actually tend to think of them as sentient beings with certain agendas that may or may not benefit us. Doesn't make them not good and in fact they my help (o have helped) a lot. I actually like Jasmine's speech about no absolutes. This means the PTBs can intervene but the focus is on mankind and their choices, even the choice over whether a decision is moral or not.

Jasmine: Because I cared. The other Powers don't. Never really did. You know that's true in your heart.
Jasmine: No, Angel. There are no absolutes. No right and wrong. Haven't you learned anything working for the Powers? There are only choices.

Absolutely but this doesn't necessarily disprove they did get involved in Kate's case. They certainly have been involved with varying results. Maybe they are not as powerful as all that and are doing the best they can.

This said, her phone call maybe the implied invitation we are looking for. Holland Manners wife said to Angel "Help us" which allowed him to enter. This is all fine and dandy because it's explicit enough. Kate's cry for help was a little unclear but she let him know what she was planning (more or less) if she wanted him to save her, this could count as an invitation. I would find this a lot more satisfying than simply "going somewhere more quiet" which could be anywhere from a motel, to his place etc. If anything was an implied invite (yes I accept most theories) I'd say that was it.


The First took responsibility with a "we brought you back" in BTVS "Amends". Truth or not (The First does love its truth), the "we" is very interesting.
Note that this was done when the Angel spin-off was being developed and an over-arching series foil was being created.[/QUOTE]

 

[Superstar]

This said, her phone call maybe the implied invitation we are looking for... Kate's cry for help was a little unclear but she let him know what she was planning (more or less) if she wanted him to save her, this could count as an invitation. I would find this a lot more satisfying than simply "going somewhere more quiet" which could be anywhere from a motel, to his place etc. If anything was an implied invite (yes I accept most theories) I'd say that was it.

An interesting culmination of all of their conversations on trust and belief.

I would agree that calling someone in that obvious condition is a cry for help, otherwise a simple note suffices as there would be no knowledge of the act until afterward and a possible intervention to prevent it.
So, what you are suggesting is that while the first doesn't work for you, the second might.
Very gracious. I had not made that connection of her calling the only person she could rely on as an additional invitation.

In other words, by discussion and exploration 2 possible invitations have been discovered when previously it was assumed that none existed.
One for what was obviously a night of... intimacy and connection and the other for salvation.

I still hold that the precise language of the conversations between Angel and Kate combined with the verbatim repetition of her words by Darla are not throw away lines having nothing to do with Angel's entry. You may be correct in that a motel could be implied, but the phrase conjures up the usual translation of "let's go back to my place".

We may still agree to disagree, but thank you for being open to alternatives.

The PTB answer, while having the spiritual resonance, doesn't really jibe with everything established concerning their relationship.
For some, I'm sure that spiritual resonance holds meaning, and they may take that away with them to hold dear.
However, that is not the only answer that has meaning in relation to the storylines as developed, and in fact is slightly in opposition.
But that is what stories are about are they not? What it means to you as a person.

 

[Lindsey McDonald]

But what about the snow in Amends? Was that not the PTB intervening? Why is the PTB explaination opposed to the storylines developed if this is the case?

Also, I don't see the PTB as "good" as much as being concerned with the overall balance of things. Jasmine and the First ignored this, which is what made them different. The PTB rarely intervene, but when they do it is to ensure balance: i.e. Angel being around for the Apocalypse, whether for good or evil.

 

[Kana]

But what about the snow in Amends? Was that not the PTB intervening? Why is the PTB explaination opposed to the storylines developed if this is the case?

The snow? Not sure, could be the PTBs, could be Jasmine. Joss said it represented hope and while it could represent a divinity it isn't limited to it.

Also, I don't see the PTB as "good" as much as being concerned with the overall balance of things. Jasmine and the First ignored this, which is what made them different. The PTB rarely intervene, but when they do it is to ensure balance: i.e. Angel being around for the Apocalypse, whether for good or evil.

That's possible, they seemed to want Angel as their champion but whether that serves a purpose that isn't apparent to us, I don't know. But, yeah, I'm more preoccupied with the individual choices.

 

[Buffanator]

Implied is all it takes.
There are multiple examples where the word "invite" is not used.



Implied is all it takes. You might not like it, but them's the facts of the series as shown.

Sorry - just can't agree here. How many times did Angel say "I need more than that" when standing at a doorway? I believe Lindsey once said that, as did others. And the way Lilah said (more than once) "Did I tell you how much you are NOT invited in?" (*Untouched*)

I believe that Angel's going into Kate's apt was a miracle... perhaps Kate died for just a moment... that's all it would take, & he could enter.

 

[Buffanator]

ALSO...
I watched "Darla" last night. Angel goes roaring over to Lindsey's apt, & knocks the door down, & says "I may not be able to come in..." and Lindsey interrupts with "Wipe your feet". Angel retorts "what?" - he couldn't go in JUST YET - Lindsey replies "come in if you're gonna, but wipe your feet." Lindsey had to do more than just *imply* that Angel was invited.

Ok I'll STFU now. 😀