Normal Again

i think they skipped the whol esecond and third year of college for Willow........somewhere between S5 and S6 willow went thru half of year 2 and half of year 3.

I think....as i am writing this i am recalling a handfull of *going to class* statements.....( and i notice willow never took a finial).....humm
 
Perhaps the times she "died" in her fantasy world in the asylum would be when she got better. At least for the time she "died" between seasons 5 and 6. If she got better and left the asylum, but had another breakdown, she could have in her mind made herself think she was in heaven for a time and was dead.
This is true, as far as it's made to sound in the ep. When she was pulled from Heaven, she struggled for a long time to make sense of what she lost and why she had to be back (I think she still struggles with it on some level). Here's a bit of a scene from this ep that should shed light on this (emphasis mine):

Buffy: I wanna go home, with you and dad.

Joyce: I know, Buffy. But first you've gotta get better.

Doctor: It's not gonna be easy, Buffy, you have to take it one step at a time. You have to start ridding your mind of those things that support your hallucinations. You understand? There are things in that world that you cling to. For your delusion, they're safe-holds, but for your mind they're traps. We have to break those down.

Buffy: ...slaying?

Doctor: Yes... but I'm talking about those things you want there. What keeps you going back.

Buffy: My friends.

Doctor: That's right. Last summer, when you had a momentary awakening, it was them that pulled you back in.

Joyce: They're not really your friends, Buffy. They're just... tricks keeping you from getting healthy.

Doctor: You have to do whatever it takes to convince yourself of that, Buffy. Whatever it takes.​
For me, that cinches it. I'm pretty much on that bus when it comes to believing this whole thing exists in the mind of a lonely, scared girl locked up in a mental ward. But still, feeling that doesn't detract a bit from the rest of the whole adventures of the Scoobies because, like Buffy, they're also the reality I know.
 
Veyron
Veyron
This makes absolute sense. The high-lighted line is the clincher.
To anyone who is concerned that the asylum reality is the real one consider this.....

if everything is part of Buffy's mind and a figment of her imagination than how do you explain the tv show Angel? There are characters and events on that show that Buffy would have no way of knowing about so they can't be part of her dream world. To me this is definate proof that Buffy's vampire world is real and the insane asylum was a cruel attack from the Trio.

EDIT: (Sorry. I somehow missed where Five By Five makes the same point in an earlier post.)
 
To anyone who is concerned that the asylum reality is the real one consider this.....

if everything is part of Buffy's mind and a figment of her imagination than how do you explain the tv show Angel? There are characters and events on that show that Buffy would have no way of knowing about so they can't be part of her dream world. To me this is definate proof that Buffy's vampire world is real and the insane asylum was a cruel attack from the Trio.

EDIT: (Sorry. I somehow missed where Five By Five makes the same point in an earlier post.)
Hi there. Great question. Because, I suppose, Buffy doesn't have to be at the center of all of her imaginings. I can sit here and fantasize about another life, somewhere else, lived by other people, and I'm nowhere in the mix. Like, perhaps, how I think about what happens with Buffy and her crew in the summers between seasons. I can also sit here and think about what's going on with people I might have once known, but haven't seen in years, like she might be doing with Angel.

I think it's great we all have different opinions about what's real and what's not on the show. I just know that, for me, what compels me more in this episode is the other side of the coin. And in the end, it's all good, right?

Like I said, though, even though I'm inclined to believe that Buffy's actually sitting in a hospital eating jello through a paper straw, doesn't mean that I don't look at her fantasies as the reality. I know that seems contradictory and confusing, but... the best way I can explain it in a sentence is that they are the reality for Buffy, and they are the only reality I've known while I've traveled with Buffy, and therefore while I might feel like on some level that she's actually back in that ward, my gut feeling is to move toward the familiar setting in Sunnydale, with the Scoobies, and the vampires, and everything else. And like Buffy, I just choose to shut out the hospital, and go with the friends. But unlike Buffy, a part of me still thinks that "reality" rumbles just below the surface of fantasy. There's such a blur between these two things sometimes in life, that sometimes people do slip over the edge and don't come back.

There's a question in physics where you're asked to prove that a chair is real, or provide proof that you exist, and that you're not merely in a complex fantasy, and that things really are happening all around you in reality - but the fact still remains that there's no real way to prove it's the reality of everyone you meet, and that it's not just your reality. To put it in a pop culture reference, check out "The Matrix". For such a kick-ass action flick, it sure gives you a lot to think about.

I think Joss is a genius. He must've known that fans would wrestle with this in exactly the way Buffy wrestled with it. Is it real? What's not real? Is the ward real, or are the friends real? We each have our own opinions. The man has managed to bring even deeper empathy to the character, just when you might've thought you couldn't get any more into her head and her feelings. It's definitely a good sign when the audience begins to experience the same feelings and wrestles with the same issues that the characters do. In some way, he puts a macrocosmic mirror up for us with this, and we're all not sure about what we're seeing.
 
To anyone who is concerned that the asylum reality isn't the real one consider this.....
Reality shifts were present long before this episode to make one wonder about the Buffyverse as "reality".

One of the most striking and not oft mentioned is Dracula's Castle.
Another is the seemingly very quietly and quickly constructed Initiative HQ.

Riley: I've lived in Sunnydale a couple of years now. Know what I've never noticed before?
Giles: Uh, a castle?
Riley: A big honking castle.

Buffy: Who are you?
Dracula: I apologize. I assumed you knew. I am Dracula.
<<Buffy's eyes widen and she looks delighted.>>
Buffy: Get out!

I can't help but wonder if a Slayer would be curious and "delighted" to meet "Dracula" enough to fabricate it.
 
I
InsaneMystic
you have a damn good point with the castle...
Here's another example of reality shift:
BUFFY: Who are you?
ANDREW: Andrew.
<<Buffy shrugs and shakes her head to show her lack of recognition.>>
ANDREW: I summoned the flying monkeys that attacked the high school?
<<Willow and Buffy exchange a confused look.>>
ANDREW: During the school play, you know?
WARREN: It's Tucker's brother.
JONATHAN: Yeah, it's Tucker's brother.
BUFFY/WILLOW: Ohh.

It doesn't work for Buffy to be omniscient in her own fantasy.
She just goes with the flow.
 
Maybe the asylum where they had Dream Buffy locked in was the one that Spike visited later, and Beta George was playing mind games with her.
 
What skip? I dont remember any skip.


We where talking about the time line.

Events occur both prior to and after Xander and Anya's wedding as we are aware.

However, in a later episode we're told that a year has passed since the failed marriage attempt, but we don't know exactly what's gone on.

What month are we in?

What's happened in the intervening year since the wedding? Has something critical occurred and we're just not told about it? Or has it been a quiet year at the Hellmouth?

The time line from when Buffy was pulled out of "Heaven" and returned to her friends was three months or so ago the Doctor in the Asylum says during 'Normal Again' but are we to assume that during the three months since she went back into the fantasy world that is Sunnydale Buffy's been getting treatment and has had a bad reaction to the meds she's on, which is why she's been feeling out of it? Why she doesn't feel right?

But of course the skipped year could also be, as stated by insanezenmiss, who rightly says that a section of Willow's education was skipped. After Willow and Tara get together we don't see much of them attending class, then apart from one or two episodes after their breakup, we don't see Willow in college much at all until Buffy, during the episode where she's trying to restart her education has a hard time coping due to the Trio's interference.
 
Lets see, the last time i remember something to go by was Buffys birthday in s6, Older and far away(january).
Then the rest of s6 continues with the normal timeline till start of s7 when SD high is ready for the new school year.(august)
So is there no Birthday, halloween or christmas in s7?
What episode was it(roughly) when they said a year had passed since the wedding?
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Edit:
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The time line from when Buffy was pulled out of "Heaven" and returned to her friends was three months or so ago the Doctor in the Asylum says during 'Normal Again'

But of course the skipped year could also be, as stated by insanezenmiss, who rightly says that a section of Willow's education was skipped. After Willow and Tara get together we don't see much of them attending class, then apart from one or two episodes after their breakup, we don't see Willow in college much at all until Buffy, during the episode where she's trying to restart her education has a hard time coping due to the Trio's interference.

The Doctor dosnt say anything like 'it was 3 months or so'. He says ''last summer when you had a momentary awakening it was them that pulled you back in''.
Between s5 and s6 Buffy was in heaven for about 3 months, then she was brought back, and time continued as normal, with Halloween, Birthday etc. Then the wedding, which id assume was around February/March, then as i said before, Dawn starts school again August. So maybe when they said it been a year since the wedding(wherever it is) it actually had been a year.

And the education thing, insanezenmiss never 'rightly says', she speculated. There was no 'Skipped' education at all. It just wasnt focused on(why would it be)
 
...Do we expect to see every moment of every character's life on screen for an allotted hour per week? And if we don't, it means Buffy's only imagining it?
Well then, I guess every TV show is someone's schizophrenic delusion...
 
U
UnKle
That would explain about 95% of reality tv...
Hi there. Great question. Because, I suppose, Buffy doesn't have to be at the center of all of her imaginings. I can sit here and fantasize about another life, somewhere else, lived by other people, and I'm nowhere in the mix. Like, perhaps, how I think about what happens with Buffy and her crew in the summers between seasons. I can also sit here and think about what's going on with people I might have once known, but haven't seen in years, like she might be doing with Angel..

Yes but how can Buffy fantasize about something she is completely unaware of. Buffy doesn't know anything about a fraction of what goes on on Angel so how can that be part of her fantasy. If you think about what happens to Buffy between seasons than that is part of your fantasy and you are aware of it. Buffy has no idea who half the characters are on Angel which therefore indicates that the fantasy part of the Buffyverse is real with other characters conscious of what's going on regardless of whether Buffy is dead or alive, sane or crazy. The universe exists apart from her and is not dependent on her consciousness (or insanity) to exist.
 
caitaintdead
caitaintdead
Well said I think!
Yes but how can Buffy fantasize about something she is completely unaware of.
Like, um, because it's fantasizing? (duh!)

Buffy doesn't know anything about a fraction of what goes on on Angel so how can that be part of her fantasy. If you think about what happens to Buffy between seasons than that is part of your fantasy and you are aware of it. Buffy has no idea who half the characters are on Angel which therefore indicates that the fantasy part of the Buffyverse is real with other characters conscious of what's going on regardless of whether Buffy is dead or alive, sane or crazy. The universe exists apart from her and is not dependent on her consciousness (or insanity) to exist.
Let me put it this way. The entire Angel series might be compared to a series of fanfiction short stories that introduces a new character every once in a while. Most of the AI regulars are people from Buffy's "main life" anyway - Angel, Cordy, Wes, Harm. Major sub-arcs revolved about Darla & Faith (Buffy characters, again). Fred's & Groo's introduction was through the Pylea arc (and seriously, that's an arc screaming "psychotic dreamer" if you give the theory half a chance!), so the only real "problems" would be Gunn (often complained about to be "badly written") and Doyle (killed off very soon and replaced by someone we already knew from "Buffy")... if we accept NA as the truth, maybe Buffy just didn't give Gunn & Doyle that much attention.

And who can tell if Buffy does or doesn't know what happens on "Angel"? She might have the happenings "compartmentalized" away in her psychotic brain, and in those cases where information would relevantly cross over, just deny to herself that she knows. Actually, this would be an excellent in-'verse explanation for the strangeness of BS7 vs. AS4. One of the best explanations why Sunnydale never fell under Jasmine's influence and noone knew of the great eclispe over LA is because "that's Angel's life and I'm not supposed to know (psychotic giggle)".
 
S
Superstar
Good thoughts! Angel would be the "hero" in Buffy's mind off in his city. I think I'm converting you to the idea. It's really not that far-fetched either.
L
Lindsey McDonald
Some excellent points. Have karma!
And to think I'd been ignoring this topic thinking people would all be going on about the same thing....

Right, so, the existence of Angel. I don't think it disproves the NA theory. Let's see what the doctor said about her condition:

Doctor: The Slayer, right, but that's only one level. She's also created an intricate latticework to support her primary delusion. In her mind, she's the central figure in a fantastic world beyond imagination

Intricate latticework? Primary delusion? So her being the Slayer is her main delusion, and all the friends and people of Sunnydale are part of the latticework supporting this. Does this mean there are Secondary delusions? Could Angel's life in LA be one of these. Could the entirety of Firefly and Dollhouse be one of these?!? :silly:

Now, something more relevant:

It's not gonna be easy, Buffy. You have to take it one step at a time. You have to start ridding your mind of those things that support your hallucinations. (Buffy looking up at him) You understand? There are things in that world that you cling to. For your delusion, they're safe-holds, but for your mind they're traps. We have to break those down

So, in order to come back to reality, Buffy must get rid of everything she loves in the delusion. Hmmm. Now, this is hard for me to say, but Buffy did love Spike. Sorry. Angel. Buffy loved.....Angel. Once. Briefly. But no longer.


Oh, wait, I was making a point, wasn't I? So when Angel left Sunnydale, the delusion would be hard hit. "There are things in the world that [she] cling to." I'd assume Angel would be one of them. For this reason, I think it's safe to assume that crazy!Buffy clung to the delusion of Angel and subconciously set up his life in LA. This, understandibly, would be quite a strain on her poor little schizophrenic mind, and could have contributed to the breakdown post insertion of Dawn. Also: when Buffy died, we saw none of it on Angel. There was a completely seperate story strand that suddenly imploded with the news. Nothing more happened/was seen till Buffy's resurection.

IM also made some great points about the Angelverse being primarily inhabited with Buffy castoffs. (Not that Cordelia and Spike were castoffs in the unwanted sense, but regarding her mind). They would help support the delusion.

So, in my opinion, Angel the Series could slot in quite nicely with the Normal Again theory of schizophrenia.
 
There are actually quite a few parallels between the two series as contrast (opposites motif continues from series).

Buffy season 4/Angel season 1 - Buffy is gone from Angel's life (or vice versa), Faith (Buffy's great holdover fear) comes into Angel's life as "replacement".
Buffy season 5/Angel season 2 - Just as Buffy is getting ready to sacrifice herself and "die" Angel goes to "Oz" (purgatory).
Buffy season 6/Angel season 3 - Buffy bereft of all zest for life, Angel gets new life; a son. She regains zest/Angel loses son.
Buffy season 7/Angel season 4 - Buffy is fighting The First's Hell coming to earth (end of all things), Angel is fighting a force which is ambiguous in objective overall - first kill everyone (end of all things) then inexplicably turns to peace on earth; the flip/flop comes at the end once Buffy knows how to defeat The First. Can't have the end of all things on two fronts once hope is found
Angel season 5 - Angel and Spike - two vampires once in her life are now teamed up together (so to speak) and Buffy has moved on.
 
I think it's all of Y'ALL who are the crazy ones. :lmao:

Buffy is REAL. Her life in Sunnydale is REAL. Her friends are all REAL.... slaying demons is REAL. All of it is REAL.

I believe this because I love Spike, & I can't bear the thought of Spike NOT being real! : erm : ::huh1:: :whistle:
 
C
caritas08
karma. I think it it's pretty clear the Sunnydale life is real.
I think it's all of Y'ALL who are the crazy ones. :lmao:

Buffy is REAL. Her life in Sunnydale is REAL. Her friends are all REAL.... slaying demons is REAL. All of it is REAL.

I believe this because I love Spike, & I can't bear the thought of Spike NOT being real! : erm : ::huh1:: :whistle:

Ah, but no-one's saying we don't live inside Buffy's head too, so he could be just as real as the rest of us!
 
Ah, but no-one's saying we don't live inside Buffy's head too, so he could be just as real as the rest of us!
That would imply Buffy Summers (a hospitalized girl suffering from catatonic schizophrenia) has the delusion to be an actress called "Sarah Michelle Gellar", who plays a vampire slayer, strangely enough called "Buffy Summers", in a TV show? And "Joss Whedon" would be what - some kind of an "inner observer" persona of hers?

This theory is getting crazier by the minute. No way to disprove it, however. (Ah, the joy of solipsism.)
 
I don't think this has been said before, but it's been bugging me.

The fact that her parents shipped her off to an insane asylum for a week pre-Sunnydale is so very inconsistent with the rest of the series. Why wouldn't Buffy have mentioned this before, even in passing? Like "I can't tell my mom about being a slayer, last time I tried she thought I was crazy." Buffy claims that in the institution, she stopped talking about vampires, they let her go, and her parents just forgot about it. Does that seem likely? Does it seem likely that you send your child to a mental institution for a week because she's hallucinating about vampires, and then you FORGET about it? And when Buffy tells her mom she's the Slayer in S2, why didn't Joyce say anything like, "Oh no, this again?" or "I thought these hallucinations stopped" or "Should I get you help again?" I mean, it just doesn't make sense.

I'm not using this to support whether or not Buffy's life is real or a delusion. Frankly, I think it's real (well, "real" in context of a fictional TV show), and if it had all been a delusion of Buffy's, I think that would greatly take away from how great the show is. But when Buffy told Willow that side-story, I was just like "What....?" Bugs me.
 
well, i think they only came up with this idea (that buffy was sent to a mental institution when she was a child) in this season that's why she never mentioned it before.. :/ i guess..
 
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