Normal again.

[CordelliasHeart]

A lot of questions on this episode, skipped ahead nad so faed a lot of spoilers, just to see this episode as I heard it compared to a favorite smallivlle episode of mine.


Curious Their wa sa gaping flaw in the doctors logic...

If everything was s adelusion, including warren and his gang, WHY had things gone that way, rather then into some more grand conflict?

But assuming the doctor was the delusion maybe buffy hadnt even thought of that subconciously.


Any other thoughts?


I hadnt even finished first season when I watched that episode Ihave to admit.

 

[Blaze]

I'm a bit confused by what you are asking. But as for the delusion, in doesn't need to be some big thing, inventing a bunch of guys is a delusion in itself. In psychiatry, a delusion will usually more so deal with the character itself, so let's say a man thinks he use to be a war veteran but was never actually deployed, well that would be a delusion. Someone thinking they are way more important than they are would be a delusion. Buffy thinking she's a slayer would definitely be a delusion.

Now inventing other people and a whole world, I'm not too sure which mental illness it would constitute. I'd have to go back to my books, but I'm not even sure what'd it'd constitute. I mean, it definitely is delusional to invent such thing, but I'm not sure it'd be categorised as such. Either way, a delusion, although it obviously needs to be an exaggeration of the person's self, doesn't need to include some big big bad, inventing a serial killer in itself is way more than enough.

 

[fredthe3rd]

You might want to do a quick reread on that post!

 

[CordelliasHeart]

the doctor made his line about how, "the world youve created, anya, Dawn, Angel, their not as comforting as they once were, your not fighting dos or demons, just 3 pathetic little men who like to play with toy's.

 

[Blaze]

the doctor made his line about how, "the world youve created, anya, Dawn, Angel, their not as comforting as they once were, your not fighting dos or demons, just 3 pathetic little men who like to play with toy's.

Are you even sure they only said Buffy suffered from delusion, I don't remember the episode well enough to know what the diagnostic was.

In this case the doctor was simply trying to show to Buffy that the world she created not only wasn't true, but was even starting to lose it's color. This was an attempt at bringing her back to the real world.

But like I said, a delusion doesn't need to be some huge thing, there was no flaws in the doctor's logic at all.

 

[Lyri]

The whole thing with the 'three pathetic little men' was to the demon's toxin trying to 'prove' to Buffy's mind that the world where she was in the institution was the real one. They said that Buffy 'escaped' last summer - meaning when she died in the real world - but her friends drew her back in. The fact that her latest big bad was just three guys she went to high school with was supposed to prove that her delusions were falling apart and she really wanted to come back to the 'real' world.

But what no one seems to get is that - apart from Angelus and Glory - Warren and his friends were actually the 'big bads' that caused the most damage in Buffy's life, damage that lasted well into S8 and 9. Warren might have been human, but in my opinion, he was the most evil creature in the whole show.

'Normal Again' is my favorite episode of the whole show, specifically because it leaves you questioning at the end. It fascinates me that, in Buffy's institution world, she is an only child, when we learn in the 'Slayer, Interrupted' comic that it was because of Dawn's snooping that she gets sent to the institution in the first place. (She reads Buffy's diary detailing her Slaying life and tells their mother.) It's a very interesting episode that does make you think and wonder and I would really love for them to go back and revisit that at some point.

 

[CordelliasHeart]

heres a creepy question... what would buffy have done if she'd let all her friends die, somehow didnt get sluaghtered by the demon, then a few days latter the poison wound up wearing off. (I know it doesnt say if it does naturaly or not at any point but find it a valid question)

 

[Lyri]

The ep would have ended in exactly the same way, in my opinion - a comatose and unresponsive Buffy, only this time, she'd wake up in the 'real world' with her parents. That was the whole point of the ep, that she had to let one reality go. If she had chosen the institution reality, Buffy would have killed her friends and then slipped into that state we saw her in at the end of the actual ep, because she'd let go of the reality with her friends.

If the toxin was capable of just wearing off, then they could have just locked Buffy in the basement for a couple of days, there would have been no need to hunt down all he ingredients and the demon itself for the antidote. The fact that an antidote was need proves - to me at least - that the toxin was permanent without outside assistance.

 

[Blaze]

heres a creepy question... what would buffy have done if she'd let all her friends die, somehow didnt get sluaghtered by the demon, then a few days latter the poison wound up wearing off. (I know it doesnt say if it does naturaly or not at any point but find it a valid question)

Seeing her reaction at the end of s5 when she realizes she's "killed Dawn" in her mind, Buffy would probably go completely catatonic once realizing what she has done. I'm guessing we would have seen a very, very dark version of Buffy after that.

Now a more interesting point of view would be that Buffy would actually have woken up at the mental hospital and everything about the other world she's created via the demon's poison could be in fact true. The episode Normal Again I find has a very open to interpretation ending. It's made pretty clear that Buffy's world is real and all, but that final sequence of Buffy becoming completely catatonic in the hospital is a very weird scene, and could be opened for debate as to what it means.

 

[Zeppelin92]

I like the episode. A lot of people have mixed feelings about it because it questions the validity of an entire 'Verse that fans have grown to love and is basically saying, everything you have invested into the show emotionally could just be a delusion in the mind of some crazy person. OR maybe not, but we'll never know because they leave you hanging.

I honestly think that its very probable that there is an alternate reality where Buffy is in a mental hospital and the poison from that demon allowed her to perceive both realities simultaneously. If you look at the Wishverse for example, it was created just because Cordelia made a wish, but it continued even after Cordelia was killed in the actual Wishverse.

Maybe the demon's poison created the alternate world, or maybe it just connects the two realities. I believe that the Mental Institution Buffy reality still exists though. Even after Buffy comes back to her Slayer Reality, that final scene in my opinion proves that both realities are going to continue on and without the poison's effects will be oblivious of one another's existence.

Also to agree with what Lyri said above, I think it could have gone either way at the end technically. It had to return to the Sunnydale reality though because that's where the show is based.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

Just finished watching this episode and I actually find it to be the most creepy one yet, but this coming from one who is creeped out by things in the medical field. It was like a Shudder Island thing, with a similar question mark ending. Has the entire Slayer story just been a delusion created by a schizophrenic young girl?

It's startling and could be maddening to some because this one episode out of nowhere suddenly questions the validity of the entire series and the fandom invested in it. Bangel and Spuffy shipping is arguably pointless because those relationships might not have actually happened, nor Angel and Spike real characters.

Actually there are quite a few aspects of the show's past that could fit this angle; I was actually surprised that the doctor didn't bother to bring up Giles returning to England earlier in the season which could link to the logic he applied to the trio, that the treat of average human beings instead of demons or apocalypses is a sign of her delusions weakening and her subconscious attempt to find her way back to "the real world". Giles introduced the slayer concept and taught it to her so to have sent him away could have been seen by the institution as a subconscious attempt to get rid of the slayer persona. When she chooses to embrace Sunnydale, guess who then returns not long after? Plus one of the trio got more badass and triggered an evil Willow. Interesting.
Other smaller aspects of season 6 are also equivalent to weaker delusions; trouble with the bills, the fast food job, Xander dumping Anya at the alter, even Spike. Spike could be seen as a desperate attempt to recreate Angel. He even acquired a soul!
While Faith from a few years earlier could fit as the opposing rejection mechanism, either a version of herself that she wanted to destroy or someone sicker than her to convince herself that there was nothing wrong with her. The name Faith could actually be symbolic of this. The entire idea that the impossibility of more than one slayer had been destroyed could have been a statement of her sanity by showing that there are others like her.
Had they explored this the deterioration of her delusions would have been clearer when seen between the two rejections.

Dawn I believe would have been a significant turning point in the delusions. The memories of her childhood that were built into the minds of everyone around here would technically have been a semi-delusion within a delusion somewhat like Inception which could have destabilized her. Down the line Dawn's entrance had led to a hopelessness within her which resulted in a mental shut down like the one she had at the end of this episode. Here she had been trapped in a loop of repeatedly killing Dawn. Perhaps in the institution 'The Key' Dawn could have been is the key to Buffy's reality because she was a breaking point for Buffy.
Think about it, the first sign of Joyce's brain tumor was a spell where she seemed to have had some kind of memory lapse and had peeked out from behind the curtain of fabricated Dawn memories; "Who are you?", then later expressed to Buffy having this strange knowledge that Dawn was not hers. Buffy's subconscious could have seen this as a threat, a breech of the delusion thus the brain tumor and later her death.
Being a family member rather than a friend, Dawn would be what most sets the two realities apart.

Now was all purely hypothetical, DO NOT mistake me for believing Sunnydale the delusion, and it may be completely crazy, I do tend to over think sometimes.
There are also slight hints against it and events that I can't fit together with it (though that might also be because it's nearly 2 in the morning and my bedtime).

At one point the two realities had overlapped when Buffy reveals that she had also been institutionalized in Sunnydale reality but only for a few weeks as she was released when she lied about the visions/dreams/whatever being gone. So then when Joyce had been let in on the Slayer secret, how had she not brought up that institution experience?

Also the Angel spin off series, In institution reality Angel is a delusion Buffy created and then banished where she has visited him but shown no knowledge of what is going on with him other than that and she has certainly never met Lorne. Is it still somehow possible that institution Buffy had created an entirely separate world for Angel? I do find it an interesting fit how not only Angel but two other characters who had left the Sunnydale world were placed with him outside Sunnydale in LA.

As already stated it overall came down to Buffy having to choose a reality and what happened when she did, the mental shut down in the institution would have occurred just the same in Sunnydale had she chosen the institution and it had been beginning to. Of course though Sunnydale had to win because it's the main story of the show. If it had ended with the whole thing having been a delusion that would have kind of killed the entire point of the series and just sucked.

 

[Lyri]

At one point the two realities had overlapped when Buffy reveals that she had also been institutionalized in Sunnydale reality but only for a few weeks as she was released when she lied about the visions/dreams/whatever being gone. So then when Joyce had been let in on the Slayer secret, how had she not brought up that institution experience?

Also the Angel spin off series, In institution reality Angel is a delusion Buffy created and then banished where she has visited him but shown no knowledge of what is going on with him other than that and she has certainly never met Lorne. Is it still somehow possible that institution Buffy had created an entirely separate world for Angel? I do find it an interesting fit how not only Angel but two other characters who had left the Sunnydale world were placed with him outside Sunnydale in LA.

In my opinion, it's these two points here that make me 100% sure that the Institution was the delusion.

If the show had been told completely from the perspective of Buffy Summers - ala, the True Blood novels, the Twilight novels and the Anita Blake novels - than I would have been able to more fully contemplate whether or not the institution was actually the real reality.

Buy given that there are things that have happened on both shows that Buffy has no knowledge about - Darla's resurrection, Jasmine and many, many others - to me, that shows that Buffy couldn't have imagined those things. There would be no need for her to create Fred or Gunn or Connor or to give Harmony a job working for Angel. None of them matter to her delusion as it affects her. They play no significant part and if she had wanted to get rid of Angel, Cordelia and Wesley from her immediate world, she could have simply killed them off instead of coming up with yet another delusion.

The other reason I don't buy into the delusion is Dawn.

In the delusion, Buffy is an only child, but in the comic, Slayer, Interrupted, which is largely considered to be canon by a lot of the fandom, the reason for Buffy being sent to the institution was because Dawn found her diary and told Joyce what was in it.

This ties into the actual show and explains why Joyce didn't mention that time when she found out the truth in S2 - because Dawn hadn't been created yet, so, neither had those memories.

I don't know if the institution reality was just an AU that the demon venom projected into Buffy's mind, or if the venom actually just made her imagine the whole thing. I like to think that it is an actual alternate reality, mostly because I like the idea of all these different versions of the characters are out there. Plus, there's a world without shrimp, I just think that's cool, lol.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

In my opinion, it's these two points here that make me 100% sure that the Institution was the delusion.

Buy given that there are things that have happened on both shows that Buffy has no knowledge about - Darla's resurrection, Jasmine and many, many others - to me, that shows that Buffy couldn't have imagined those things. There would be no need for her to create Fred or Gunn or Connor or to give Harmony a job working for Angel. None of them matter to her delusion as it affects her. They play no significant part and if she had wanted to get rid of Angel, Cordelia and Wesley from her immediate world, she could have simply killed them off instead of coming up with yet another delusion.

Exactly. Speaking once again hypothetically supporting Sunnydale as the delusion, I am wondering now if Buffy didn't in fact banish Angel but rather he was sent away either by brainwashing into her that he left or by medications. The conversation Joyce has with Angel in 'prom' fits in with this, Joyce could have been trying to say those things to the shut down Buffy in the institution and they came through to her as Angel being the recipient, as Joyce telling Angel to go away. Angel was her strongest delusion which she clutched most closely to her. So I could see them theorizing that getting rid of Angel might bring her back.

But Buffy continued to see Angel even after he 'left' which could have been her way of trying to bring him back but medication continued to block him. Such as when he appeared to prevent her death by the Native Americans but she never knew he had been there until Xander blabs and when she had visited him in his series and talked about how he could have been what she needed if he were human and for a time he had been made human but she is made to forget that.

Despite however there is no explanation for Buffy to create events for Angel in a separate world such as giving him a son and especially with Darla and all the hints of an Angel/Cordelia relationship. The entire idea that both Cordelia and Wesley after being banished from Buffy's world became stronger characters in Angel's makes absolutely no sense.

The other reason I don't buy into the delusion is Dawn.

In the delusion, Buffy is an only child, but in the comic, Slayer, Interrupted, which is largely considered to be canon by a lot of the fandom, the reason for Buffy being sent to the institution was because Dawn found her diary and told Joyce what was in it.

This ties into the actual show and explains why Joyce didn't mention that time when she found out the truth in S2 - because Dawn hadn't been created yet, so, neither had those memories.

Now this is interesting. I do not know this comic but if it is considered cannon by Joss than it does explain that angle. So Buffy having been institutionalized in Sunnydale world technically had not actually happened since Dawn was the direct cause however it was at a time when she wasn't actually there, it's a part of what was rearranged in memory to falsify that she was.

I however do not see this storyline fitting into the series because Buffy has never been shown keeping a personal diary (unless my memory is failing here), only the one she had to keep for the egg assignment in Bad Eggs. It doesn't seem very Buffy but it could have also been something else that only occurred in the Dawn illusion of that time period.

There however also was the story Buffy told Willow in the episode, that she had been institutionalized because she herself went to her parents terrified of vampires. It was nothing to do with a dairy and Dawn was actually never mentioned. It was a completely different version that does not match this comic story line.

So though I have not read it, I already don't give validity to this comic.

I don't know if the institution reality was just an AU that the demon venom projected into Buffy's mind, or if the venom actually just made her imagine the whole thing. I like to think that it is an actual alternate reality, mostly because I like the idea of all these different versions of the characters are out there. Plus, there's a world without shrimp, I just think that's cool, lol.

The event of Joyce discovering the slayer persona of Buffy with Dawn vs. without if it fit better with the tv series would give it an alternate reality feel however what isn't clear is what made Buffy lie about the "delusions" being gone to merit her release in Sunnydale vs. the Institution reality where she clung to it as a manifestation of schizophrenia? What exactly is the difference between the two institution scenarios? Was it the level of reality the slayer persona had in each? What event had created the institution Buffy?Schizophrenia can either be genetic or can be brought on by environment which could mean anything from what the fetus is exposed to in the womb to social interaction, home life, viruses, drug use or stress. In Sunnydale-verse Buffy had been a popular cheerleader airhead prior to be chosen as the Slayer, was this different in the universe where she had been institutionalized from around that same age (or so it was implied)? What had her home and social life been before?

This is why Sunnydale being the delusion is barely supported, the schizophrenic Buffy wasn't developed leaving the more plausible question the one you presented. Did the demon's injection intentionally create the institution resembling an episode of Charmed or was that scenario Buffy's individual response to it?

 

[Cordy_Chase]

I hate to double post but the 15 minute window to edit posts forces it as I forgot to mention that the entire 'Wish' episode also argues against Sunnydale being the delusion because that was revolved around Cordelia. There is even evidence to support that wishverse had not been a real alternate reality but rather created from what Anya knew of the scoobies to suit Cordelia's desire. There is a wishverse thread here discussing it.

 

[Zeppelin92]

The whole thing with Dawn, I've always wondered if maybe it was because of her memories that Joyce had the brain tumor in the first place because her mind was fighting against the implanted memories. It would kind of cruel to place that death on Dawn though.

Also I don't think monks would have created an entire false memory of Dawn telling Joyce about Buffy's diary unless the basis for the memory was already there. Basically I'm saying Buffy went to the mental institution before the creation of Dawn, but the whole Dawn's the reason why was added after the fact as a believable memory.

 

[Cordy_Chase]

I'd like to amend my comment about Buffy keeping a diary I was reminded elsewhere of scenes where this is clearly supported. I feel rather foolish now for my memory failure here.

The whole thing with Dawn, I've always wondered if maybe it was because of her memories that Joyce had the brain tumor in the first place because her mind was fighting against the implanted memories. It would kind of cruel to place that death on Dawn though.

I have wondered this very thing, that Joyce's brain tumor was somewhat like Jonathon Kent in Smallville, how his once childlike healthy heart had deteriorated until he died after temporarily receiving krytonian powers by Jor Ell. This would not make it Dawn's fault but rather the fault of the monks who created her memories.

Also I don't think monks would have created an entire false memory of Dawn telling Joyce about Buffy's diary unless the basis for the memory was already there. Basically I'm saying Buffy went to the mental institution before the creation of Dawn, but the whole Dawn's the reason why was added after the fact as a believable memory.

I believe you are right, in fact I don't buy the comic version. That's not how it's told in the show, Buffy told Willow she had been briefly institutionalized because she had been scared and went to her parents for comfort. Her diary was not involved and neither for that matter was Dawn. Dawn was not even mentioned.

 

[slayer6]

wow definitely some interesting points of view about this ep. That is why it is one of my favorites. It is open to interpretation. I choose to believe in the alternate realities theory. It is the only thing that makes sense to me because Buffy goes catatonic and stays in sunnydale. Anyway it also goes right along with an actual scientific theory called the many worlds theory where there is an infinite number of universes with all of us living infinite numbers of different types of lives.

 

[slayer6]

Exactly. Speaking once again hypothetically supporting Sunnydale as the delusion, I am wondering now if Buffy didn't in fact banish Angel but rather he was sent away either by brainwashing into her that he left or by medications. The conversation Joyce has with Angel in 'prom' fits in with this, Joyce could have been trying to say those things to the shut down Buffy in the institution and they came through to her as Angel being the recipient, as Joyce telling Angel to go away. Angel was her strongest delusion which she clutched most closely to her. So I could see them theorizing that getting rid of Angel might bring her back.

But Buffy continued to see Angel even after he 'left' which could have been her way of trying to bring him back but medication continued to block him. Such as when he appeared to prevent her death by the Native Americans but she never knew he had been there until Xander blabs and when she had visited him in his series and talked about how he could have been what she needed if he were human and for a time he had been made human but she is made to forget that.

Despite however there is no explanation for Buffy to create events for Angel in a separate world such as giving him a son and especially with Darla and all the hints of an Angel/Cordelia relationship. The entire idea that both Cordelia and Wesley after being banished from Buffy's world became stronger characters in Angel's makes absolutely no sense.



Now this is interesting. I do not know this comic but if it is considered cannon by Joss than it does explain that angle. So Buffy having been institutionalized in Sunnydale world technically had not actually happened since Dawn was the direct cause however it was at a time when she wasn't actually there, it's a part of what was rearranged in memory to falsify that she was.

I however do not see this storyline fitting into the series because Buffy has never been shown keeping a personal diary (unless my memory is failing here), only the one she had to keep for the egg assignment in Bad Eggs. It doesn't seem very Buffy but it could have also been something else that only occurred in the Dawn illusion of that time period.

There however also was the story Buffy told Willow in the episode, that she had been institutionalized because she herself went to her parents terrified of vampires. It was nothing to do with a dairy and Dawn was actually never mentioned. It was a completely different version that does not match this comic story line.

So though I have not read it, I already don't give validity to this comic.



The event of Joyce discovering the slayer persona of Buffy with Dawn vs. without if it fit better with the tv series would give it an alternate reality feel however what isn't clear is what made Buffy lie about the "delusions" being gone to merit her release in Sunnydale vs. the Institution reality where she clung to it as a manifestation of schizophrenia? What exactly is the difference between the two institution scenarios? Was it the level of reality the slayer persona had in each? What event had created the institution Buffy?Schizophrenia can either be genetic or can be brought on by environment which could mean anything from what the fetus is exposed to in the womb to social interaction, home life, viruses, drug use or stress. In Sunnydale-verse Buffy had been a popular cheerleader airhead prior to be chosen as the Slayer, was this different in the universe where she had been institutionalized from around that same age (or so it was implied)? What had her home and social life been before?

This is why Sunnydale being the delusion is barely supported, the schizophrenic Buffy wasn't developed leaving the more plausible question the one you presented. Did the demon's injection intentionally create the institution resembling an episode of Charmed or was that scenario Buffy's individual response to it?

Actually if you watch season one the episode titled Angel Buffy lets Angel stay in her room after Angel saves her from The 3 and the next afternoon he is still there and sais he has been reading Buffy then sees that her diary is out and gets upset thinking that he read her diary but her mom had moved it. So my long winded point being that she has been seen keeping a diary. 🙂

 

[Veyron]

There's been some discussion of Normal Again on the boards, I thought I'd link one of the biggest threads for your perusal.

https://buffy-boards.com/showthread.php?t=38709