Not a question about Good vs. Evil?

[eponinethen]

In Buffyverse there is always the good vs. evil battles, there is almost always possible to tell if someone belongs to the Good or the Evil side. But there are also a lot of "exeptions", where it's harder to tell, or where things tend to change... Like with Angel, Spike, Faith, (Willow) and others.

Well, my question is, do you believe (in real life) that there is such a thing as Good and Evil? Do you believe a person can be evil, or become evil? Can something be evil, does "evil" exist?
(If you do believe so, please give examples.)

 

[Jacklyn]

I believe evil exists...I've seen evil in murders, rapist, people who slaughter defenseless children, abusive parents but the most particularly well-known instance I can think of would be:

Suicide bombers-they don't give a damn who they take out. War is to be fought among soldiers, not innocent civilians.

 

[eponinethen]

I don't believe a person can be evil, a person can do bad things, but I think most people just do what they think is right. Sure, those things can lead to really bad things, and cause terrible things to happen.. but I don't think many people does stuff just to be "evil" or to make the world an "evil" place.

Suicide bombers-they don't give a damn who they take out. War is to be fought among soldiers, not innocent civilians.

I don't believe suicide bombers are evil. They don't kill those people to be evil, they do it to be good. It's Jihad (if you're talking about muslims), the best thing a person can do is fight for their religion.. It has got nothing to do with them being evil, or Islam being an evil religion. They do it to please God, they're not evil, just really religious..

 

[Jacklyn]

Never said Muslim was an evil religion, I just don't believe those people truly follow their religions. It's like the Crusades. Jesus taught non-violence and yet people were all over the place killing in Jesus' name. That's not following your religion. That's using your religion as an excuse.

 

[elmo]

I'm in too good a mood to answer this one properly but I believe that evil exists. I'm not sure I believe that someone can switch from good to evil... I think it has to be in your blood to start with. Enough said though... I'll get all philosophical and depressive on y'all. (hee hee, I said "y'all")

 

[nerd4hire]

Tell me exactly what you mean by "evil". I'll tell you whether or not I think it exists.

 

[Lorne The Host]

Good and evil are abstract concepts. They only exist as long as you believe in them. They exist as much as you think they do.

 

[eset]

I see good and evil, along with most abstacts, as purely subjective. As words, they take on whatever meaning ascribed to them by the speaker. They therefore both exist and don't exist:

They exist in whatever function they are meant, as they are tied directly to the meaning given them by the speaker.

However...

They have no existence outside of the meaning given them by the speaker, and therefore once the point is made fade into the oblivion of unformed ideas until called upon by another speaker.

 

[eponinethen]

Never said Muslim was an evil religion, I just don't believe those people truly follow their religions. It's like the Crusades. Jesus taught non-violence and yet people were all over the place killing in Jesus' name. That's not following your religion. That's using your religion as an excuse.

(I didn't mean that you thought Muslims or Islam where evil, sorry if it sounded like that.)
I agree that it isn't really religion telling suicidal bombers to do these things, but since they believe it is, they believe Islam tells them to do this, they believe this will take them directly to their "heaven". I'm not at all saying that makes it OK. But they don't do this to be evil or to do something evil just cause the sake of it, they do it cause they really believe it is Jihad and the best thing they can possibly do with their life (sad but true, and it's not like there aren't christians just as "fundamental").
But, I do agree many wars use religion as an excuse, when the reason really is something else, I don't consider that to be evil either though, that's just like Bush changing motives for the Iraq war, about terrorists/oil/saving people (and although I really don't like Bush, I don't consider him to be evil either).

Tell me exactly what you mean by "evil". I'll tell you whether or not I think it exists.

Well, that's hard since I don't believe in it. The I think the most interesting question is if you believe that a person can be evil. SInce I'm asking for your opinion I kinda need you to tell me what you thing "evil" is, do you believe you can call a person "evil", and what do you mean by that if you do..? (So I need you to tell me what you consider "evil" to be, if you believe in it.)

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Yea, good and evil are subjective concepts but it would be hard to argue that evil doesn't exist. I'm sure that a well-informed sociopath could argue that Nazism and the Holocaust were not evil, laying out logical reasons why but, as with everything else, you have to look at the source. I even think that hardened paedophiles believe that their activities are not evil and persuade themselves and their fellow abusers that they aren't doing anything wrong. But I believe that evil (and good) exist because everyone (except possibly the mentally ill - like our sociopatic Nazi above🙂) has their own definition of the concept and, in the majority of cases, those definitions will be very similar - certainly within social, religious or racial groupings and probably, for a few basic ideas, universal.

Phew! I would've probably worded that better if I weren't quite so hungover...🙂

 

[nerd4hire]

Here's one I find kind of bemusing.

If a shark eats a tuna, that's cool. That's what sharks do, but if a shark eats a little girl, the mother might find that fish evil. Conan O
Brian might do a monologue on the same story though, and find it funny.

 

[eponinethen]

Ok I can see how my question is hard to answer since everyone has their own definition of "evil". But that is also why I asked this..

I am actually one of them who would say that Nazism isn't evil. And do not for a second believe that I am a nazi, cause that's not what this is about at all...
But, who's to say what's right and good? I'm not saying I don't have opinions about it (cause I do), and when it comes to Nazism the good/bad-question is quite easy to answer, but there are of course other things that are harder to judge.. My point is, as long as it is people who decide what's evil, and as long as some people believe it to be good, how can you for sure say it's evil? Like, some people used to believe (or still believe) that an evil person was influenced by the devil, and then they did evil things. Just like (most of the) demons in Buffyverse are evil and do things because it's evil, because they want to do the "wrong" thing. I think there is a huge difference between doing things, to do evil, and doing things, not knowing what is morally "right".

Here's one I find kind of bemusing.

If a shark eats a tuna, that's cool. That's what sharks do, but if a shark eats a little girl, the mother might find that fish evil. Conan O
Brian might do a monologue on the same story though, and find it funny.

Sort of my point, lol.

(Couldn't give you reputation.)

 

[Mr. Pointy]

I think I'm getting it now. It's a question of semantics isn't it? Things and actions themselves aren't evil per se but the meanings we attach to them, either as a society or as individuals make them evil. And what is considered to be evil by the majority of people in a society becomes part of that society's "mythology" (not the right word but it's been a long time since I studied sociology - do I mean a "meme"?)
*picture a cartoon light bulb going on over Pointy's head 🙂* ::idea:: ::idea:: ::idea::

 

[Faith]

I believe evil exists...I've seen evil in murders, rapist, people who slaughter defenseless children, abusive parents

I'm with Jacklyn on this one. I believe that evil resides within, and in most cases it was an outside factor that installed it there. Be it religion, the way a child was raised, or as the case tends to be not raised. I've seen a lot, not personally but through the case reports i've had to read for class, covering the factors, and the accounts given by both victims and the accused and some of this stuff chills me to the bone. To think that humans are capable of such acts has opened my eyes. Nothing surprises me anymore, but again that is all due to individual perceptions. Classification of what is evil has changed throughout the years and as well as this I feel that it also depends on what you have been exposed to.

 

[Willow Rosenberg]

I do believe evil exists. It doesn't entirely consume a human being, but it exists, in quantities varying on their actions within each of us.

On the subject of Jihad I just want to make a statement. Jihad is an extreme form of Muslim. It is a very small portion of Muslims that participate in Jihad. Muslims as a whole believe that if they die in the name of Allah, they will go directly to heaven. Jihads take this to extremities with the suicide bombings. Most Muslims disagree with the practices of the Jihad. I took a class on religions of the world and learned a lot about Islam, and I have had some very good friends that are practicioners of the religion and often feel they are negatively impacted by some of the recent stereotypes that have come about since 9/11.

 

[eponinethen]

I'm not at all saying all Muslims believe in Jihad, I have close friends who are Muslims too. But I'm just saying that Muslim suicidal bombers don't do the things they do to be evil, they do it cause they believe in Jihad.. and that dying in Jihad takes them directly to "paradise". And that could be considered a good thing, dying for god (if you believe in it it's not evil, but good).

I think I'm getting it now. It's a question of semantics isn't it? Things and actions themselves aren't evil per se but the meanings we attach to them, either as a society or as individuals make them evil. And what is considered to be evil by the majority of people in a society becomes part of that society's "mythology" (not the right word but it's been a long time since I studied sociology - do I mean a "meme"?)

Well, that is sort of what I believe.
I believe that as long as a person does what he/she thinks is right and good, that person isn't evil. Evil is when you do something just to destroy for others, just cause you are evil. And I do believe everyone does what he/she thinks is right, and because of that, no-one is really evil...

 

[Mr. Pointy]

Well, that is sort of what I believe.
I believe that as long as a person does what he/she thinks is right and good, that person isn't evil. Evil is when you do something just to destroy for others, just cause you are evil. And I do believe everyone does what he/she thinks is right, and because of that, no-one is really evil...

Is this what I understand to be a Libertarian philosophy? Didn't much of the Marquis de Sade's writing come from the same viewpoint?

I think that there are people in this world that could be described as evil in the terms you describe but the majority of us would call them mentally ill...just because they believe their actions to be right doesn't make them right in a wider sense.

 

[eponinethen]

Is this what I understand to be a Libertarian philosophy? Didn't much of the Marquis de Sade's writing come from the same viewpoint?

But Marquis de Sade used this as a reason for him to do those "evil" or "wrong" things, as long as he didn't consider them to be wrong, or as long as he didn't do it to be evil. I'm not at all saying that it's OK to do whatever you want just cause it doesn't have anything to do with evil. On the other hand, I think it has a lot more to do with ethics. (It's not like I don't think there should be laws or rules.)

I think that there are people in this world that could be described as evil in the terms you describe but the majority of us would call them mentally ill...just because they believe their actions to be right doesn't make them right in a wider sense.

I am not saying that just cause they believe it to be right, it's OK to do it. I'm saying that cause they believe it is right, they're not doing it to be evil, they think it's right and that they are doing a good thing. Just like me or you probably think we're doing the right thing when someone else might consider us evil. I just don't think you're evil if you're trying do to the right thing.
Though I agree that of course mentally ill people can do things that can be considered evil, but I don't at all think they are evil..
Doing things that are "wrong" doesn't mean you are evil.

I'm in too good a mood to answer this one properly but I believe that evil exists. I'm not sure I believe that someone can switch from good to evil... I think it has to be in your blood to start with. Enough said though... I'll get all philosophical and depressive on y'all. (hee hee, I said "y'all")

That's a really scary thought elmo.. If it's in your blood to start with, it means that you only can be born evil. It means that some people are evil and some are good, and you can't change. And this takes away the respinsibility from the individual, there isn't even a reason to think through things before you do them cause if you are evil you won't be able to do good, so there is no reason to try. Hm, is this what you mean..?

 

[JollyApe]

Your question is weird and I don't want to answer. No but seriously that is a very good question that needs a lot of pondering.

Here's what I think,
I don't believe in good and evil. The words are misused and abused all of the time. But I do believe in Love and Hate.

As soon as I write that I'm afraid I'll drift of into some kind of 80's love song. No, but I believe that we have to make an effort to be "good" to let love guide us instead of being "evil" and just give in to hate. See what I mean soon I'll be writing about army of lovers or something (and that was actually quite funny if you are Swedish).

No human being is born good or evil, but we have to constantly keep fighting if we want to become "good" human beings. I mean being good and nice isn't something that just comes naturally. We are all quite egoistic and turn your back on your egoism is quite hard. I mean it's so much easier to just do the things that will benefit you and not the things that will benefit most people.

Being "evil" is all about letting your instincts, egoism and hate rule your world and yes there are people out there that does that. However I don't think that you can call Saddam or Hitler or any other massmurderer evil in that sense, I mean they were ****ed up in the brain, I mean they were crazy, not the typical human being. Somethings wrong with them that goes beyond good and evil.

Don't know I might just be rambling, do you get that at all?

 

[eponinethen]

Your question is weird and I don't want to answer. No but seriously that is a very good question that needs a lot of pondering.

Why am I this paranoid? Lol. When I read that I got scared and thought you were gonna tell me how weird I am..

Here's what I think,
I don't believe in good and evil. The words are misused and abused all of the time. But I do believe in Love and Hate.

As soon as I write that I'm afraid I'll drift of into some kind of 80's love song. No, but I believe that we have to make an effort to be "good" to let love guide us instead of being "evil" and just give in to hate. See what I mean soon I'll be writing about army of lovers or something (and that was actually quite funny if you are Swedish).

No human being is born good or evil, but we have to constantly keep fighting if we want to become "good" human beings. I mean being good and nice isn't something that just comes naturally. We are all quite egoistic and turn your back on your egoism is quite hard. I mean it's so much easier to just do the things that will benefit you and not the things that will benefit most people.

Being "evil" is all about letting your instincts, egoism and hate rule your world and yes there are people out there that does that. However I don't think that you can call Saddam or Hitler or any other massmurderer evil in that sense, I mean they were ****ed up in the brain, I mean they were crazy, not the typical human being. Somethings wrong with them that goes beyond good and evil.

Don't know I might just be rambling, do you get that at all?

Lol, I know the 80s feeling, though for me it's more of a hippie thing, peace, love and understanding (I have phobes about those things but I tend to sound like one of them soemtimes).

Anyway you sound like you think almost like I do. Maybe not entirely but I do get what you mean and I can agree. I agree that Hitler or Stalin or Mao wasn't evil.. well, since I don't believe in evil I don't believe anyone is evil so maybe that wasn't too hard to guess..
Sure they were not quite "normal", I mean if you ask me they didn't do the "right" thing (ehh), but that has got nothing to do with evil, in my opinion..