Question "Nothing of the Host Remains"

[Buffyverse Fan]

"Nothing of the Host Remains" has been a theme of two out of my three favorite "cult" franchises, and Dollhouse.

In Buffy, Giles said from early on that nothing of the human remains when they become a vampire. This became a dubious claim from season 2 onward, though, because with the exceptions of the Master & Angelus, who were pure monster, we saw Spike, who was very much like a man even pre-Chip/Soul.

In Stargate, the main premise for the first eight seasons was the fight against the Goa'uld, who took over human bodies. Early on, they made the same claim, that nothing of the human survived once they became a host. This was proved completely untrue, as they later extracted Goa'ulds from people, restoring them completely.

Now, in Dollhouse, the major quest for Caroline, revolved around the fact that actives could have their personalities removed. Yet in the last episode, Topher managed to send out a pulse that reset everyone to their original personality, without re-imprinting anyone with a wedge.

Thoughts?

 

[white avenger]

I can't speak for "Stargate," since I was never that much of a fan, but in the Buffyverse, I always felt that that and several other general statements of a similar sort should have been prefixed by, "Everyone just KNOWS..." and suffixed by, "...don't they?" Especially the things that the Watchers "knew" about vampires and demons. General statements always have exceptions ...don't they? The Watchers, who served as the primary source of demonic information for Buffy and her friends, saw all demons and vampires as monsters and killers, therefore good for nothing but killing. In actuality, as Whistler said, a lot of demons were pretty peaceful individuals. It wouldn't stretch my imagination too far to even accept the possibility that there might, somewhere in the world, be a few vampires who feed exclusively on animal blood and simply want to be left alone. Harmony, for example, said at the beginning of Angel's Season 5 that she hadn't fed on humans since coming to work for W&H, and there were other vampires working there as well, who, at least as long as Angel was in charge, had to stick to a pig's blood diet. Who's to say that at least a few of them did that willingly and not out of fear of being dusted?

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

Well, I can't speak for Stargate, but I think you're definitely on to something here. This is a great observation. I think there are certain themes that especially fascinate Joss, this being one of them. For me, the vampirism/Doll-state/taking over human bodies (Stargate) has always been an analogy for the loss of "soul" or of individual identity.

The characters we see in the shows (Echo, Spike for instance) have to fight to regain their humanity and to triumph over the demon inside (such as in Spike's case) or to create an all-together new identity because theirs is lost (as in Echo's case). Perhaps what Joss is trying to say is that nothing can erase a human soul and/or a human identity, hence the point he's making when he constantly "breaks" his own mythology.

 

[Buffyverse Fan]

Well, I can't speak for Stargate, but I think you're definitely on to something here. This is a great observation. I think there are certain themes that especially fascinate Joss, this being one of them. For me, the vampirism/Doll-state/taking over human bodies (Stargate) has always been an analogy for the loss of "soul" or of individual identity.

The characters we see in the shows (Echo, Spike for instance) have to fight to regain their humanity and to triumph over the demon inside (such as in Spike's case) or to create an all-together new identity because theirs is lost (as in Echo's case). Perhaps what Joss is trying to say is that nothing can erase a human soul and/or a human identity, hence the point he's making when he constantly "breaks" his own mythology.

So you think that the general rule would be that the humanity is lost in these cases, but special individuals (like Spike) can overcome? I like that.

The only part that confuses me would be Echo. She's supposedly the world's most wipe-resistant person, yet for all intents and purposes, Topher stripped Caroline out of her completely, where everyone else just had their real personality lying dormant within them (how else could he make them all spontaneously "reset"?).

 

[Joan the Vampire Slayer]

So you think that the general rule would be that the humanity is lost in these cases, but special individuals (like Spike) can overcome? I like that.

The only part that confuses me would be Echo. She's supposedly the world's most wipe-resistant person, yet for all intents and purposes, Topher stripped Caroline out of her completely, where everyone else just had their real personality lying dormant within them (how else could he make them all spontaneously "reset"?).

I think the whole thing was that Echo was special, like Spike. Able to overcome. Evolve. In the case of BtVS though, I'd say that yes the general population is lost when they become vampires. When Giles said that once a person is sired no humanity remains, I think he truly believed that. Remember, that was before he had been introduced to special cases like Angel and Spike, who were strong enough to not only fight the demon inside of them but who had the desire to overcome the demon inside of them (even if Angel was "forced" into it with the curse and Spike actively seeked out a soul).

It's my understanding that Echo "created" her personality out of nothing. Remember at the beginning people told her that it was impossible that she was a person, she was only a Dollstate. Echo defied them all and did the impossible; by sheer will, she was able to manifest a seperate personality within herself. Still, are some things I'm still fuzzzy on with DH. I'm sure I'll understand it better when I rewatch it. The mythology is so complex.