November 4th - 10th Episode Discussion led by Lurconis

[Lurconis]

We first meet Mr. Wesley in Buffy S3's "Bad Girls." He is shown to be a book smart watcher with little to no field experience. By the time we got to Angel S5 "The Fall", he had killed countless demons, had his throat slit, stood up to "his father", betrayed a friend for "the greater good", sleep with his enemy and countless other things that would seem very unlikely based off his first appearance.

Was Wesley's character transition handled in a realistic manner?

What are some specific points in the show you feel led to those transitions?

What changes in Wesley's personality, if any, occurred during his short time on Buffy S3?

Was his change in attitude from "Graduation Day, Part 2" to his appearance in "Parting Gifts" believable?

Was there ever a time Wesley did something that was so out of character it made you lose focus on enjoying the story?

 

[brinkster130]

Was Wesley's character transition handled in a realistic manner?

I thought so; it was significant events that caused change in his character most of which I found understandable and fairly realistic.

What are some specific points in the show you feel led to those transitions?

The downfall of the Watcher's council: Wesley had worked hard to please his father and become a Watcher; when that was no longer a possibility he was lost. He had to find his own career and become his own person.

Becoming a member of AI: Wesley tried to make it on his own as a rouge demon hunter but didn't seem to be having much success with that. Once he started working with Angel and Cordy he gained confidence and grew into his role in the team.

The Prophecy: I personally think this is when Wesley's character started going down hill. He decided he couldn't trust his friends and felt like he had to act alone. After kidnapping Connor and becoming isolated from the group he developed a darkness.

What changes in Wesley's personality, if any, occurred during his short time on Buffy S3?

I didn't notice to many, but he wasn't around very long. I'd say having Cordy crush on him and be pretty forward about it sparked a little bit of confidence. Although having both Buffy and Faith reject him as a watcher probably hurt his ego.

Was his change in attitude from "Graduation Day, Part 2" to his appearance in "Parting Gifts" believable?

Seeing as how he was out a job and went off on his own, yes, it was believable. It was clear some time had past as well.

Was there ever a time Wesley did something that was so out of character it made you lose focus on enjoying the story?

I hated seeing him kidnap Connor, but I don't know that it was out of character. It just showed his weakness's and flaws.

I did find his dorkiness in BTVS a bit distracting at times.

 

[Enemies]

Was Wesley's character transition handled in a realistic manner?
I think so. I also think the first transition is when he has the courage to come back and offer help after Buffy turns her back on him as a Watcher. Then with everything else that happens to him it's undersstandable that a person would change so much.

What are some specific points in the show you feel led to those transitions?
For me it would be his negative encounter with Buffy in season 3 and then being welcomed as a valued part of the team in Angel season 1 followed by being tortured by Faith, having to make the decision to take Connor which lead to getting his throat slit, his friends leaving him after this, going on to saving Angel early season 4 and then being with Fred and the crush of losing her and ultimately dying himself.

What changes in Wesley's personality, if any, occurred during his short time on Buffy S3?
As mentioned before I believe he swallowed his pride, realised not everyone plays by the rules and stepped up to the plate in Graduation Day part 2 when he offers Buffy help. 'So there is something I can do? Besides scream like a woman?'

Was his change in attitude from "Graduation Day, Part 2" to his appearance in "Parting Gifts" believable?
I think he's grown more of a back bone and is trying his best to portray a very strong character but I don't think it's very believable at this point.

Was there ever a time Wesley did something that was so out of character it made you lose focus on enjoying the story?
I didn't like the whole Connor kidnap thing, I was more worried about what would happen to Wesley than baby Connor as I felt personally I had no allegiance to Connor as a character yet.

 

[Lurconis]

Do you think if the scoobies had been more welcoming of wesley he would of developed the same confidence he developed with AI?

Great answers so far everyone.

 

[BuffyElevated]

Was Wesley's character transition handled in a realistic manner?

Yes I believe it was. He didn't go to "Angel" and immediately become the badass we knew by the time the show ended; it was a gradual transition for him. As he got more experience fighting demons and going up against Wolfram and Hart, he gained more confidence, and lost that goofy awkwardness. You can kinda liken it to a child who grows up in abusive home; they are hardened by what they see and experience, and so was Wesley.

What are some specific points in the show you feel led to those transitions? [/B]

"I've Got You Under My Skin" and the interaction Wesley had with the demon living in the little boy was definitely one of his first big "moments" that showed us there was a lot more to Wesley than what we had previously seen.

What changes in Wesley's personality, if any, occurred during his short time on Buffy S3?[/B]

On BtVS, he was a little less arrogant toward the end of his run on the show. He seemed to lose a little of the pompous attitude he had when he first came in. Also, he was more brave about fighting against vampires and demons... He willingly rushed into the fray (albeit getting himself trampled) in "Graduation Day 2".

Was his change in attitude from "Graduation Day, Part 2" to his appearance in "Parting Gifts" believable? [/B]

I don't think it was, but then again I think he was more putting on an act than anything else. But I do think a little of it was probably real and believable, because for all we knew, no one had ever thought to check on Wes after he was injured in the battle, and that probably hardened him quite a bit and gave him the anger he needed to go on his "rouge demon hunter" spree.

Was there ever a time Wesley did something that was so out of character it made you lose focus on enjoying the story?[/B]

No, never... I always thought there were a lot more sides to him than what we saw on screen. The only thing that ever really made me go "WOW, I can't believe he did that!" was when he kidnapped Connor without telling any of the others what was going on, and the fact that he clubbed Lorne in the head before he took him. :\

Do you think if the scoobies had been more welcoming of wesley he would of developed the same confidence he developed with AI?

Great answers so far everyone.

I don't think the Scoobies wanted to welcome him, no matter what kind of attitude and confidence he had. They were all bitter that Giles had been fired, and they were sort of rebelling against the council and protesting by refusing to work with Wesley.

 

[brinkster130]

Do you think if the scoobies had been more welcoming of wesley he would of developed the same confidence he developed with AI?

No, at least not the same confidence. I think he certainly would have developed some more confidence but at that point in his life he was still obeying all the rules in hopes of following in his fathers footsteps and pleasing him. I always thought that a good bit of his confidence came from finding friends that accepted his as he was and that he had created a stressful life for himself outside of his fathers expectations.

 

[Taake]

Was Wesley's character transition handled in a realistic manner?

Oh absolutely, I thought it was very smoothly yet interestingly written. It never stagnated and felt very organic.

What are some specific points in the show you feel led to those transitions?

When he tries to capture Faith for the Watcher's council and she escapes, when Buffy and the Scoobies don't want his help and a whole slew of things in Ats - most specifically the stress of being the only one knowing the prophecy about Angel and Connor and getting his throat cut, subsequently being abandoned by his friends.

What changes in Wesley's personality, if any, occurred during his short time on Buffy S3?

He started to get out from under the thumb of the Watcher's council. Like when he wanted to help cure Angel in Graduation day pt1... it was subtle changes mostly.

Was his change in attitude from "Graduation Day, Part 2" to his appearance in "Parting Gifts" believable?

Yes, he was drifting and more or less lost without the council and without a mission. He was trained for one thing, demon hunting, and it was very much like him to put on a false bravado to do it (to hide his weaknesses and disappointments most of all from himself)

Was there ever a time Wesley did something that was so out of character it made you lose focus on enjoying the story?

No, not really. His story was very convincing to me and though I didn't love all of it I did enjoy the storytelling.

 

[Lurconis]

I think a major turning point for him confidence wise was "guise will be guise" his pretending to be angel and his success in relationships stemming, from that episode I feel is the first time he actually felt confident in himself as opposed to just prepared

 

[BuffyElevated]

I think a major turning point for him confidence wise was "guise will be guise" his pretending to be angel and his success in relationships stemming, from that episode I feel is the first time he actually felt confident in himself as opposed to just prepared

I agree. I was actually going to list that in my reply, but forgot to. 🙂 I think pretending to be Angel brought out confidence inside him that he didn't know he even had, and it helped show him what he could be.

 

[kittenpoker]

I think another small, but maybe significant step in his growth and confidence was in the episode in season 1 when cordy is impregnated with that demon baby (I'm horrible with ep names, sorry) and wesley gets to be funny by challenging the demon to a duel but first distracting him, "I like to get to know my opponent first - do you have any hobbies?" and then shooting him.... his aim is dead on. that's the first time, I think, we see how freaking awesome he is with a gun.

 

[ticonderouga]

In addition to what others have said I would also add that another significant step in Wesley's development was standing up to the council in Sanctuary, though he had just been tortured by Faith. It shows a level of moral and physical courage that he had never really displayed before. I think a lot of this change was due to finding people like Cordy and Angel whom he could place absolute trust in. Another point of significance in Wesley's development as a character, came when he started running Angel Investigations, in season 2, the way he treats the people he is placed in charge of: Cordy, Gunn, and later Angel definitely shows that he has come along way since the council tried to place him in charge of Buffy and Faith.

 

[Lurconis]

Thought I would throw out one last question.

Was wesley justified in taking connor knowing what he knew

 

[Enemies]

Do you think if the scoobies had been more welcoming of wesley he would of developed the same confidence he developed with AI?

Great answers so far everyone.

Not at all. I think his relationship with the Scoobies was very authoritarian where it was a very 'do as I say' attitude (or at least he tried) whereas with AI it was based around friendship first and his need to belong to something. I also agree that he grew a lot in character through guise will be guise.

As for do I agree with Wesley taking Connor? I don't agree with it on one hand, I feel he should have know better or at least trusted someone with this information. However, I can see why he did it too. I think it would have destroyed Wesley if anything had happened to Connor and he'd sat by and let it happen.

[MENTION=11485]Lurconis[/MENTION] - very good discussion, thank you 🙂

 

[ticonderouga]

Thought I would throw out one last question.

Was wesley justified in taking connor knowing what he knew

I think that while Wes was wrong in taking Connor, he did have justification. Yet one consistent trait that we see from Wes, in both AtS and BtVS, is that he has tendency not to tell anyone when he makes a very difficult decision that my have dire consequences. So what he did with Connor was very similar to the way he went about trying to bring Faith back to England. So while Wesley has indeed grown a great deal while on AtS he was still the same character.

 

[brinkster130]

Was wesley justified in taking connor knowing what he knew

I don't think so. His concern was absolutely justified, but actually kidnapping Connor and endangering his life with out consulting anyone was a major error in judgment. I think Wesley should have confided in Cordy, Fred or Gunn before taking such drastic measures. If he had talked to one of them about it he may have been able to figure out that the prophecy wasn't going to come true.